Can't think of a more BORING Open site...

[archie_struthers]

 

Steve hit the nail on the head ,  it's been raining for two months around here , for God's sake!

How can this design yield anything but low scores given the conditions. Remember these are the best players in the world,  with hopped up equipment .   The U.S. Open has always been  famous for hard , fast conditions  .....this week is an aberration!

[Patrick_Mucci]

BB has got to have the most boring green complexes in Open history.  Is anyone enjoying watching this?  I see nothing of architectural interest other than it's long....big deal.

Mike,

Anytime a course hosts an Open I think the ability to view the architecture is diminished, primarily due to the narrowing of the fairways.
The game becomes "target golf" oriented versus "strategically" oriented.

How many times have you played BPB ?

 

[Nicholas Coppolo]

I've only played Quaker, WFW, BB, Baltusrol and 2 public courses in Texas whose authorship is questionable: Cedar Crest, and Brack....I LOVE his bunkering in general and appreciate the difficulty of his tee shots but have the same sentiments reguarding approaches on the majority of golf his holes.  That being said, I still don't feel qualified to discern whether I like Tilly or not without seeing more of his work that has been less altered.

Agreed as you know on: 17, 15, 14 (I love but definently unique within the context of the course), and 4 (and the overall greatness of the hole).

Generally however,  penalties are exacted from missing shots on aggressive lines or miss-clubbing,  not from hitting the inappropriate portion of the green or approaching with the inappropriate ball flight.   With the above exceptions, there is generally no need to work the balls on or off slopes, either to hold the greens, to avoid potential 3 putts, or to get close.

On 3 for example There's no reason a well struck high ball to the middle of the green won't yield an easy 2 putt par or birdie with a great put.  If you pull it, you will still find the front left of the left side, is you push it you'll find the back right of the right side.

5 is not really about the green complex or slope.  It's about hitting it really deep into the fairway down the right side....that's the primary challenge on that hole.  Anything well stuck to the center of that green from the fairway deep down the right side will suffice.

Again the premium on this golf course remain hitting big drives into the fairway and with the exception of 3 or 4 holes, anywhere in the fairway will suffice.

I will say, Oakmont is ABSOLUTELY one of my favorite courses, as is a the more subtle Plainfield, and every C&C course I've played.  I have not played Augusta, while I don't love recent changes which redefine driving requirements, those greens and complexes mandate the kind of golf I find most interesting and inspiring.

There's no accounting for taste.

 

[Mike Wagner]

Well, johnny just said it..."there's not many putts out here these guys are scared of."

Again, so there's no confusion, this is not bashing - just a statement that the greens aren't very exciting.

[Dave_Miller]

Well, johnny just said it..."there's not many putts out here these guys are scared of."

Again, so there's no confusion, this is not bashing - just a statement that the greens aren't very exciting.

Mike
Sorry but unless you've been to the Black and at least walked it you have no idea how interesting that course is.  Television does not do it justice.  The elevation changes are amazing and even more severe than Augusta which amazed me when I first saw it live.
Best
Dave

[Patrick_Mucci]

Nick,

Did you find a similarity between the greens at Baltusrol Lower and BPB ?

Mike,

At typical USGA Open pace those seemingly flat greens at BPB take on significant consideration for the contestants.

Have you ever played BPB ?

[Mike Wagner]

I need to make myself more clear:  It's obviously a VERY interesting course - period.  The greens just aren't that interesting when compared to other Open venues - it's not a slam - it's just an opinion.  I'm not trying to take anything away from the course...I have not played it.  Totally understand the appreciation of seeing a course.

The conditions obviously aren't helping. 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Wagner:

Your impressions of BB's greens comes 100% from never having been at the course or personally playing it.

Please refresh my memory on your grounds for such an opinion -- or is it simply gleaned from your spot in front of your TV.

If you actually saw the course, or even played it, you would see that the course has roughly six greens which are quite vanilla -- that six are quite good and that six others are quite vexing. I base that opinion on 200+ rounds played at BB and having competed in various events at the course. Steve L is quite right -- when dry and when brought to full speed the situation you face is FAR more challenging than what you see now.

When you have a deluge -- make that DELUGE OF H20 -- the steam of the greens is taken out. I can cite plenty of other case examples where this happened -- WF/W had this happen in '97's PGA -- then in '06 the US Open had the benefit of dry conditions and the scores went up big time.

Hope this info help your understanding.

[Nicholas Coppolo]

Nick,

Did you find a similarity between the greens at Baltusrol Lower and BPB ?

Patrick,
  Baltusrol was the first "important" golf course I ever played in the North East and it was 1998, some 7 years before I moved to NY and got to play the Black regularly, and I have never been back (unfortunately).

My memory sucks but I had a few impressions that lasted.

First, in terms of the complexes, I found them a little more strategic and inviting though still with plenty of bite.  I think that deals mostly with the openness and width of the entrances to the majority of them and the general profile of the course as compared to BB.

As for the surface.  I found them subtle like BB, but also in a different way.  Maybe its the difference between poa and bent or again the profile of the greens but I found that minute ripples meant a little more.  And often the greens will have 3 or 4 tiny moves as opposed to an overall 1 or 2 move tilt.

On my first impression, I couldn't help but notice what was to me the amount of Trent Jones in the Lower. (I grew up on a Trent Jones course).   I think that was probably naive.

[mike_malone]

  I imagine Mike is exaggerating a little with "boring". I think the weather has neutered the course.

[Sean Leary]

What course's greens in the Opens normal rota are less interesting? I would guess that would be the thing that refutes Mikes statements.

[Richard Choi]

Torrey Pines greens are not more exciting than BPB for sure. TP may have more obvious tiers, but BPB have much more subtle breaks everywhere, and no green on TP is as severe as the 15th green at BPB.

[Sean Leary]

What's funny to me is that clearly more speed would make them much more interesting, but guys would make more putts than they are. Which of course isn't possible this week.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Nick,

Is it possible that your assessment of the putting surfaces at BL and BPB was pretty much determined by the position of your ball on the green ?

Before Craig Currier, BPB's condition wasn't the greatest.
Sometimes slow and/or poor putting surfaces leave us with a vastly different impression than fast greens.

Compared to other AWT courses in the area, BL's and BPB's greens have less pronounced contour and slope, but, they're massive.
I believe BPB average about 8,000 sq/ft.
I wonder if their size creates the impression of a mundane putting surface.

By contrast Ridgewood's greens are relatively small and BU's are severely sloped.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

You can't ignore their receptiveness due to all the rain, and, I don't believe the greens were mowed today.

Receptive greens putting at moderate speeds are ripe for the plucking for the best golfers in the world.

[Richard Choi]

Even with the most OPTIMAL scoring condition, possibly ever, at the US Open, the best player on the planet is still over par and the second best player is just under.

I doubt that there are too many courses in the country that could defend itself like this in this condition.

Can you imagine what the scores would be now if we were playing Torrey Pines with the same condition?

[Sean Leary]

Pat,

I agree. These players like fast greens though and they were short all day. Again, no fault to anyone, they just couldn't mow them.

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

To piggyback on your excellent last post -- only two (2) players in the current world ratings are within the top ten entering the final round of the '09 US Open.

The world's top player has been held in check through a course that is wetter and playing easier than it did in '02.

One other thought -- bring the same H20 amounts to just about any course and the results would speak for themselves. BB has done well despite the elements and from having wider fairways than in '02, graduated rough and the pushing up of various tees for the player's advantage.

Sean L:

Think of BB this way -- if the greens at BB were akin to what you have at WF/W the players would not be able to finish. You do have roughly six greens which are quite vexing, six that are challenging and six which are quite vanilla.

[Sean Leary]

Can you imagine how long the publics rounds would take if they had severe greens at BB?

[Jay Flemma]

The course features more sharp doglegs than most or all other U.S. Open venues.

I'd guess southern hills might have more:)

[Michael Dugger]

I concur with Mr. Wagner that BPB greens are not the most exciting of the U.S. Open Rotunda.

But they are not so horrible, perhaps the fact Mr. Wagner just returned from Ballyneal is clouding his judgement.... 

[Eric_Terhorst]

For me talking about the site or the green complexes being boring misses the point entirely of the US Open.  Did the little subtleties of Oakmont's greens show up well on TV?  Was watching the players struggle over 6-footers at Oakmont really exciting?  Does anybody care about how the architecture impacted Tiger's heroics at the 72nd last year?  Like most golfers I haven't played Winged Foot, and frankly watching on television I did not commit a single hole to memory except the 18th, because that's where the most important drama happened during the final round.  

What makes the US Open compelling viewing is watching how the players in position to win handle themselves down the stretch.  Montgomerie, Furyk, and Mickelson imploding in the last few holes at Winged Foot was the big story there, a story that had nothing to do with the green complexes.

The most interesting shot at the last Winged Foot Open bounced off a hospitality tent  

[Michael Dugger]

The course features more sharp doglegs than most or all other U.S. Open venues.

I'd guess southern hills might have more:)

Great point.  Are the greens at Southern Hills less "boring" than these?

[Michael Dugger]

Doesn't Medinah have more doglegs than BPB???

I'd like to hear Mike Wagner tell us how the greens at Medinah aremore interesting than BPB

[Brent Carlson]

BPB are pretty flat.  Here's the flipside to that argument.  Lets take Oakland Hills (Open/PGA).  All we heard about last year was how there was too much contour and strategy (i.e. - too interesting). 

Where is the middle ground?