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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2009, 06:35:04 PM »
BPB are pretty flat.  Here's the flipside to that argument.  Lets take Oakland Hills (Open/PGA).  All we heard about last year was how there was too much contour and strategy (i.e. - too interesting). 

Where is the middle ground?

There is no middle ground.

There are only interpretations.........preferences..........otherwise known as opinions.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Matt_Ward

Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2009, 09:00:04 PM »
Guys:

For all those who throw forward opinions -- having never been at the Black PERSONALLY - please don't generalize about the greens at BB all being one way.

They are not.

I'll say this again for the benefit of those who only understand the course from what they see on TV or what Johnny Miller explains ... there are about six vanilla type greens at the Black -- six that are fairly challenging and six others that are very demanding. No dobt the level of degree intensifies if drier conditions enter the picture.

I can say this woth 1000% certainty -- the players are thanking the man upstairs for the wet conditions when playing a hole like 15. Make the hole too dry and the same people bitching and moaning about BB being too E-Z would then say that the course is nothing more than a larger version of putt-putt.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2009, 09:23:01 PM »
I've played the Black and think it's a great course.  But is anyone actually disagreeing with Mike Wagner's main point (or at least the one he's sticking to), i.e., that the greens at the Black are some of the least interesting of U.S. Open courses?  Perhaps they need to be that way because of the difficulty of the course from tee to green, perhaps they're more than sufficient for an Open, and certainly they'd be more difficult at light speed -- but isn't Mike W's general point still correct? 

PS:  If one is stating an opinion about how interesting a course APPEARS ON TV, and how good it is for watching a tournament ON TV, does that person need to have played the course before stating such an opinion?  I say no.   

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2009, 09:29:37 PM »
Matt Ward...I do not think it's BB's greens that are holding the number one golfer in the world "in check".....

An opening round 74...in a monsoon rain is to blame.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2009, 09:33:07 PM »
Being a member of this site didn't come with the explicit instructions to never opine on a golf course unless you've played it.  After listening to Mike speak about courses last weekend I have to say that I would respect his opinion on just about any golf course.  Don't forget he is working at Erin Hills this summer, so he knows good green complexes when he sees them.  I believe that through the use of modern technology, educated opinion from those you confide and trust in, and deductive analysis; you can indeed form a decent--I didn't say good--opinion of a golf course without having seen it.  It doesn't replace actually seeing the golf course as we all know. But if we limited ourselves to commenting on courses we've played--5 or 10 times as one poster asserts--then this site would lose a lot of valuable material.  I for one have been bitten in the ass by comparing holes I've studied in print and picture, but it has helped me learn more about GCA when someone takes the time to guide me in a more constructive direction.  It also serves to increase my desire to actually play that particular hole when I do foul up an analysis.  

For the record I agree with what Mike has said regarding the greens at BB. Having never seen it in person, I can't fully and accurately opine on the subject. Since when is opinion supposed to be accurate anyway?  But from many different avenues of study, I've found the greens to be somewhat blase in comparison to the other Open venues.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2009, 09:37:48 PM »
Ben Sims,

Have you read "Scotland's Gift" ?

Page 295, next to the last paragraph ? ;D

In analyzing a green/s, I think you have to factor size into the equation.

The scale of BPB is striking.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 09:39:52 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2009, 09:41:58 PM »
Torrey Pines is more boring...name a great hole there..if Tiger hadnt won there last year they might have never gotten another Open

BB has several great/very good holes
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2009, 10:00:00 PM »
Mr. Mucci,


I have not read it--sounds like I need to pick it up--and I agree.  I think the best course I've ever played that has taught me that lesson is Pasatiempo, oddly enough.  Even with a lot of man made buildings around to compare scale, MacKenzie (recently the boys at Renaissance) did a great job of confusing the golfer in terms of green size.  I remember the par three 8th green causing my eyes and my club selection to be out of whack. Trusting the yardage was the only thing that kept me from under-clubbing horribly.

I need to see BB for this reason.

Nicholas Coppolo

Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2009, 10:31:20 PM »
Nick,

Is it possible that your assessment of the putting surfaces at BL and BPB was pretty much determined by the position of your ball on the green ?

Before Craig Currier, BPB's condition wasn't the greatest.
Sometimes slow and/or poor putting surfaces leave us with a vastly different impression than fast greens.

Compared to other AWT courses in the area, BL's and BPB's greens have less pronounced contour and slope, but, they're massive.
I believe BPB average about 8,000 sq/ft.
I wonder if their size creates the impression of a mundane putting surface.

By contrast Ridgewood's greens are relatively small and BU's are severely sloped.

Pat,
  
I don't understand what you mean by the position of my ball on the green.  

I have to reiterate that I only played BL once but having played many rounds on BB, I see a similarity between the two in that, with few exceptions (14, 15, 17 on BB and 4 at BL comes to mind) the interior contours of the majority of the greens do not mandate the use of slopes or specific ball flights in order to hold greens, get close, or avoid a three putt.

I will admit that I favor bold contours and greens with few pinable areas, greens that require you to play to slopes rather than pins, both working the ball against and with slopes in order to hold greens, get close, or avoid three putts.

While creative players may choose on their own to use the subtle contours of BB and BL to work the ball, neither course's greens require it on all but a few approaches.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2009, 12:18:34 AM »
Greens that fit the architectural and landscape environment of a golf course--now that's a novel idea.  BB's greens are not anywhere similar to Friar's Head or NGLA.  However, they are very much the best possible greens for the Black.  When the course plays to normal conditions, the plain 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 16th greens become very tricky to both hit and hold, and then make putts.  Every year in the NY Open the 2nd and 6th leave players perplexed about their misreads.  This year there is an unbelievable chart of the greens that players are using and they still cannot seem to trust what the slope grades show--witness Phil's putt on 2 this evening and Tiger's putt on 6--both putts were spot on to the player's target.  Incidentally, if the 2nd and 5th greens had more slope and contour, they would be much easier to hit approach shots close in normal conditions because the slopes would act as backstops.  Hitting the 5th green in normal conditions requires a solidly struck shot that lands in the front third of the green.  As for the 17th green, it is not just a simple 2 tier green.  There are some intersting internal contours in the front left and back left portions of the green.  Unfortunately, the wet conditions neutralized the interesting approach putts to the 3rd round pin, although, the only putt I sayw go in was by Trevor Murphy and his playing partner thought he had his only for it to break the other way at the hole.
   Over the past few years, I have been a very harsh critic of how the course is becoming architecturaly diminished because of the new left bunker on 8, the fairway bunker on 9, the bottleneck narrowing of the fairway bunkers on 11, the left fairway bunkers on 13, and the hideous framing bunker and new back tier on 14.  In spite of these architectural travesties, the course is still great, it just is not as great as Engineers, Firars Head, or GCGC anymore.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2009, 08:58:42 AM »
Robert,

Any chance you have a copy of the charts that were provided to the Open participants? That would be very interesting, from both the architectural and playing perspective.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2009, 10:28:43 AM »
At the moment I do not have the greens chart book, but I saw Dennis Paulson's copy that he is using in the XM radio telecast.  The book charts the degree of slope in every square foot or 6 inches of green.  This is taking what players have done with electronic levels the past dozen years to an even more precise level.
   With the greens running at 13 today, the putts are starting to have interesting movement. 

Matt_Ward

Re: Can't think of a more BORING Open site...
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2009, 02:40:52 PM »
RMD:

I too share your concerns on the overall day-to-day presentation of BB. It's not just when the Open is played there but the desire to keep Open conditions in play 24/7. The course doesn't need to be helped by overly narrow fairways -- the addition of the fairway bunkers at #9 and #13 leaves me scratching my head because I don't see them fitting in appropriately.

I'd be curious to your comments on the 18th hole and what remedies you see as being practical -- I've mentioned mine several times previously. Good to read the comments of someone who is well versed in the course through the playing of numerous rounds there.

One last comment -- you highlight how BB has dropped in your mind -- where would you now rate it among the courses you have played in all of LI ?

Many thanks ...