US Senior Open at Crooked Stick

[Chris_Clouser]

Is anyone on the board going to be at the tournament at Crooked Stick at the end of July?  I think my wife is getting me a ticket for Father's Day.  Not sure what day I will go yet.  Thought it might be a good way to meet some people if they are going.

[Criss Titschinger]

I'm seriously considering going out there for either Saturday or Sunday's round (probably Saturday).  I'll PM if you if I end up going.

I went to the Solheim Cup back in 2005 and greatly enjoyed Crooked Stick.  Lots of great vantage points, my favorite being under the trees at 10 green, where you can see 10, 16, 17, and even some of 18.

[PCCraig]

Any idea how long they plan on playing the course? Can't it be tipped out at +/- 7,500 yards? I'm assuming the Seniors will play it 7,000 yards or so?

Are they growing out the rough at all?

[Criss Titschinger]

Any idea how long they plan on playing the course? Can't it be tipped out at +/- 7,500 yards? I'm assuming the Seniors will play it 7,000 yards or so?

Are they growing out the rough at all?

Not sure about the rough, but you're right.  Crooked Stick can play up to 7,516 yards.  Looking at my yardage book and the yardage they have on the USGA site, I'm guessing they'll play it around 7000-7200 yards.  The only holes I saw where they were playing from the tips were 1 (which even the women did at the Solheim), 9, 10, 11, 15, 17, and possibly 18.

[Chris_Clouser]

Just wanted to bump this up to the top again and see who might be attending.  Looks like I will be there on Sunday.

[Steve Burrows]

I will likely be out there on Sunday as well. 

I remember seeing a lot of these guys at Crooked Stick back at the 1991 PGA, so it should be interesting to see how they attack it almost 20 years later.

[Matt_Ward]

Be more interested in two things ...

1). The fairway widths for the longest holes

2). The sheer depth of the rough and whether the weather this spring / summer has impacted it

[PCCraig]

2). The sheer depth of the rough and whether the weather this spring / summer has impacted it

When I was there a few weeks ago the rough wasn't very long (maybe 2-3" tops), but super thick probably due to all the spring rain the midwest got this year.

It doesn't strike me as a course that needs to narrow the fairways in order to make it tougher as so long as they play it from the +/- 7100 tees.

Should be a fun tournament to watch in person!

[Scott Sander]

I'll be there at times.  CS is a 10 minute walk from my hood to the other side of the tracks, so I'll probably stop in briefly most days. 

I'm excited/anxious because my golf-crazy 5 year old will be with me.  I'm not sure yet how he'll do with the whole "SSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!" part.  But the USGA is courting kiddos with their 'parents pay/children are free' offer, so I'm taking them up on it.

We'll see how the practice day goes, then plan from there.

I'll be eager to see comments from GCA'ers who have not yet really seen the course.  The Par 3's in particular are exceptional but rarely discussed.  And I really hope they put the pin on the back lobe of 15 at least once, just to see what y'all think of it.

[tlavin]

I'll be there at times.  CS is a 10 minute walk from my hood to the other side of the tracks, so I'll probably stop in briefly most days. 

I'm excited/anxious because my golf-crazy 5 year old will be with me.  I'm not sure yet how he'll do with the whole "SSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!" part.  But the USGA is courting kiddos with their 'parents pay/children are free' offer, so I'm taking them up on it.

We'll see how the practice day goes, then plan from there.

I'll be eager to see comments from GCA'ers who have not yet really seen the course.  The Par 3's in particular are exceptional but rarely discussed.  And I really hope they put the pin on the back lobe of 15 at least once, just to see what y'all think of it.

Trust me, you and your kid will have an awesome time.  The Senior Open is one of the greatest golf tournaments to attend.  There's a lot of good golf, but the personalities of the Senior Tour are much more "interactive" than the robot tour. 

[PCCraig]

I'll be there at times.  CS is a 10 minute walk from my hood to the other side of the tracks, so I'll probably stop in briefly most days. 

I'm excited/anxious because my golf-crazy 5 year old will be with me.  I'm not sure yet how he'll do with the whole "SSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!" part.  But the USGA is courting kiddos with their 'parents pay/children are free' offer, so I'm taking them up on it.

We'll see how the practice day goes, then plan from there.

I'll be eager to see comments from GCA'ers who have not yet really seen the course.  The Par 3's in particular are exceptional but rarely discussed.  And I really hope they put the pin on the back lobe of 15 at least once, just to see what y'all think of it.

Scott-

I agree with your assessment of the 15th...considering that the hole will play as a two-shotter for most of the field, a back left pin is an almost certain...the hole features a ton of risk/reward.

And I'm sure your son will have a great time out on the course! You may have a few extra divots in your front lawn come Monday morning.

[Chris_Clouser]

Wanted to bump this up again for this week.  I'll be out there on Sunday if anyone is interested in meeting up shoot me a message.

[Bob Barriger]

Chris, I will be out there for the practice round Wednesday afternoon, blow Wed off, join me Wed am for a round at Wolf Run and then the practice round at  Crooked Stick.  Matt, we have had a wet week here in central IN, they can have the rough as deep as they want. I live just a couple of miles from CS and we got almost an inch Sat am and almost 24 hours  of mist, rain and cool weather just a little earlier inthe week.

[Jim Sweeney]

I will be there Saturday. Inside info says it will play approx. 6900 on any one day.

[Chris_Clouser]

Bob, I wish I could but I'm in charge of the store this week, as it were, and everyone else is out. 

[Scott Sander]

Heading out today at 1:30.

If you spot a guy wearing glasses and an orange & blue hat from The Fort, and he is chasing down a 5 year old who is wearing a tiny pair of black & white golf shoes, do say hullo.  Or run far away, depending on his expression. 

[Scott Sander]

Went to Tuesday practice round and Round 1 Thursday.

Quick impressions: 
-I'm guessing the course looks great on TV, but that's not necessarily a good thing if you like your Opens to be contested around par.  Drives are kicking up rich, dark divots on first impact and getting moderate roll at best from there.  That lengthens the course a bit, I suppose, but it also mitigates roll-through that would (should) scoot overly-aggressive or wayward tee shots into less-desirable lies.
Greens are also holding -much- better than I would have expected.  The par-3 13 is a prime example - the back right pin on a green that can play like a fader's Redan was kicking balls half the expected distance, even into the evening.  That hole's entire defense is a devilish green and the golfer's ego - and soft conditions mitigate both.

-I cannot believe that Crooked Stick would ever have become "too short", but if that phrase is used to mean not long enough for a future all-ages Open, then it just might be.  The length of the course is all in its par 4s, and so many of those have cuttable doglegs or little jogs that it measures much longer than it plays.  And with the exception of #17, the wonderful par 3's are likely mid-irons at most.

-Organizationally, it seems to be working very well.  The back 9 is a terrific spectator's routing.  "Good spots" on 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18 are all a few footsteps away.

-I'm always amazed at how badly an event like this damages a course.

-Tom Watson may not be a fan.  The local paper (Indianapolis Star) quotes him: "You can't hit it here, you can't hit it here, you can't hit it here, you can't hit it here. . . . a lot of can'ts out there rather than cans, the way I look at the golf course. That's Pete's magic, I guess you might say."

So Tom Watson likes to look at cans when he's out playing golf.  At least he and I have one thing in common. 

 

[Chris_Clouser]

Scott,

Thanks for the report.  I talked with a co-worker this morning that was out there yesterday.  She tought things moved pretty smoothly once you got on the course. 

[JohnV]

Congratulations to one of the best mid-amateurs in the country who is leading after two rounds.  Tim Jackson, take it home!

I hope this will increase his opportunities to both be on the Walker Cup team and to captain it in the future.  He deserves both honors.

[Scott Sander]

Any post-mortems on the course from those who attended?  Or watched?

I'll amend my earlier observations to say that by the weekend, the fairways were rolling out quite well... a fact that did not have the effect I'd presumed.  It just shortened the course even more. 

The crowds Sat/Sun really were outstanding.  Estimates are in the 30,000's.

It's such a perfect venue for spectator golf and has such a zealous volunteer corps , I hope CS continues to court and land these events.  But I'm not yet convinced that it can deliver the scores organizers hope to see for a full Open unless they play it at par 70 and firm up the greens.

[Chris_Clouser]

Something I noticed yesterday was that many of the pins were very accessible but aside from Funk, Roberts and Cochran, no one seemed to really go for it.  I saw several people playing extremely safe.  On the first hole for example I can count on one hand the number of people we saw actually go for the flag on a shot that was no more than a wedge for these guys if they played down the fairway, but almost all of them laid back off the tee with irons and left themselves nines or eights in.  Another example was on three.  We saw the first 5 groups go through that hole and we saw one person put it on the left side of the green.  Not only was it closer to the hole, but it was the much easier putt.  We couldn't believe how many were coming up short and right.  Many of them were playing not to lose position instead of going for the win.

They could easily lower the par to 70 but that is not what they need to focus on.  The course probably played as easy as it could over the 4 days due to the pin locations and the rain the course has received recently, including a downpour on Saturday night that made the greens early in the day very receptible.  For the BMW Championships in a few years you will see some nasty pin locations put in place. 

Overall the par threes were spectacular to watch the action on and illustrate the best part of this course.  Holes 8 and 9 still strke me as the best par four and five on the course after all of these years.  They look much more like what Dye had there almost 20 years ago when I first played the course.  But clearly the first 11 holes were about positioning yourself for the stretch run. 

Hole 12 was critical to the round with them using the up tees for the hole.  You could make anything from a 2 to a 6 on that hole at the 331 yard tee.  Tim Simpson hit a drive that stopped about 20 feet short of the green.  He made 5.  In the same group was John Cook.  Coming into the hole he was 6 under.  He had about 50 feet to get to the green.  He tried to get cute with the pitch and left it short.  He ended up with at least a bogey if not worse.  It killed his round.  The next time we saw him was on 15 and he had dropped three more shots.  If they play that hole all the way from the back tee it just becomes a ball buster of a par four that would have jumped the scoring average at least a shot for everyone but would have been much more boring.  It was great job by the USGA to make this a short four using that particular pin location yesterday.  I don't think it works with any other pin location though. 

Did they use the back left hole location at all this week on 15?  That would have made that hole much more interesting.  There were several birdies in the groups we saw come through while sitting there. 

Hole 14 was interesting to see.  So many people refused to even try and cut the dogleg.  Saw perhaps the best shot I have seen in a long time when Olin Browne drilled a rope from 200 out that went right at the flag and ended up within 5 feet.  You knew as soon as he hit it that it was going to be close.  It was just pure.  This was a hole that if you could hit a long drive you had a huge advantage, but you had to be aggresive as well.  I just didn't see that in the groups we saw go through that hole.

Holes 16, 17 and 18 played difficult all week, but they had pins that made the holes about as easy as they could yesterday, almost to try and create an atmosphere where someone could make a move coming in.  But there was a ten second stretch when you knew what was going on with the tournament.  The grandstands for 10 and 16 were really close together.  Roberts hit a perfect shot that bounced into 5 feet short of the 16th pin.  He is leaning over his putt and then a loud eruption occurs on the 10th hole, Funk made a birdie.  Roberts should have backed away, instead he stayed over the putt and hit it and missed.  In the final scheme of things it would have been meaningless, but if he could have made that he probably doesn't just play in on the final two holes because he knew it was over at that point. 

The only other thing I'll say is that the speed of the Langer-Mike Reid pairing was awful.  By hole 4 they were two complete holes behind as the group ahead of them was holing out on 5 as they were just teeing it up on 4. 

As for the crowd, I thought it was very well routed around the course and only when everyone began to migrate to the last hole at the end did it feel like there were that many people there. 

Oh and for the USGA, if you are going to ban phones and cameras, then please enforce the rules.  All they did was ask as you walked in if you had them for all the people around me and then they checked my bag as I walk in.  I didn't have them, but several people did and were using them all over the place.  If you are going to have a rule enforce it or let everyone bring them. 

[Scott Sander]

Something I noticed yesterday was that many of the pins were very accessible but aside from Funk, Roberts and Cochran, no one seemed to really go for it.  I saw several people playing extremely safe.  On the first hole for example I can count on one hand the number of people we saw actually go for the flag on a shot that was no more than a wedge for these guys if they played down the fairway, but almost all of them laid back off the tee with irons and left themselves nines or eights in.  Another example was on three.  We saw the first 5 groups go through that hole and we saw one person put it on the left side of the green.  Not only was it closer to the hole, but it was the much easier putt.  We couldn't believe how many were coming up short and right.  Many of them were playing not to lose position instead of going for the win.

Interesting and correct observation.  That was not the case at all on Saturday - guys were firing at every pin we saw, especially 2.  In one three group stretch, Watson, Romero, Tim Simpson, and Gilder were all pin high or past.  Three of them made birdie.  Saturday must be moving day and Sunday paycheck day, eh?

They could easily lower the par to 70 but that is not what they need to focus on.  The course probably played as easy as it could over the 4 days due to the pin locations and the rain the course has received recently, including a downpour on Saturday night that made the greens early in the day very receptible.  For the BMW Championships in a few years you will see some nasty pin locations put in place.
 
They used a right side pin on 13 three times.  That was a nice surprise.

Overall the par threes were spectacular to watch the action on and illustrate the best part of this course.  Holes 8 and 9 still strke me as the best par four and five on the course after all of these years.  They look much more like what Dye had there almost 20 years ago when I first played the course.  But clearly the first 11 holes were about positioning yourself for the stretch run. 

Hole 12 was critical to the round with them using the up tees for the hole.  You could make anything from a 2 to a 6 on that hole at the 331 yard tee.  Tim Simpson hit a drive that stopped about 20 feet short of the green.  He made 5.  In the same group was John Cook.  Coming into the hole he was 6 under.  He had about 50 feet to get to the green.  He tried to get cute with the pitch and left it short.  He ended up with at least a bogey if not worse.  It killed his round.  The next time we saw him was on 15 and he had dropped three more shots.  If they play that hole all the way from the back tee it just becomes a ball buster of a par four that would have jumped the scoring average at least a shot for everyone but would have been much more boring.  It was great job by the USGA to make this a short four using that particular pin location yesterday.  I don't think it works with any other pin location though. 

Watched the final round at home and was dismayed to hear one of the announcers make a flippant remark about Norman keeping Dye off his Christmas card list because Norman landed in the back left bunker on 12.  Norman may be a lot of things, but he's not a whiner about architecture and seems to have real reverence for Dye.  A comment that conveyed that relationship would have been great since it would have displayed the irony of the situation.

Did they use the back left hole location at all this week on 15?  That would have made that hole much more interesting.  There were several birdies in the groups we saw come through while sitting there. 

Yup.  Wednesday Practice and Thursday at least.  Maybe more.  I did not get out there as much as I'd like to have - the par 3's were just too compelling to stray that far from.

Hole 14 was interesting to see.  So many people refused to even try and cut the dogleg.  Saw perhaps the best shot I have seen in a long time when Olin Browne drilled a rope from 200 out that went right at the flag and ended up within 5 feet.  You knew as soon as he hit it that it was going to be close.  It was just pure.  This was a hole that if you could hit a long drive you had a huge advantage, but you had to be aggresive as well.  I just didn't see that in the groups we saw go through that hole.

I think that hole might be the one the USGA would be most worried about with the flat bellies.  They could make mincemeat out of it unless they narrow the fairway or move 106th street.

Holes 16, 17 and 18 played difficult all week, but they had pins that made the holes about as easy as they could yesterday, almost to try and create an atmosphere where someone could make a move coming in.  But there was a ten second stretch when you knew what was going on with the tournament.  The grandstands for 10 and 16 were really close together.  Roberts hit a perfect shot that bounced into 5 feet short of the 16th pin.  He is leaning over his putt and then a loud eruption occurs on the 10th hole, Funk made a birdie.  Roberts should have backed away, instead he stayed over the putt and hit it and missed.  In the final scheme of things it would have been meaningless, but if he could have made that he probably doesn't just play in on the final two holes because he knew it was over at that point. 

The only other thing I'll say is that the speed of the Langer-Mike Reid pairing was awful.  By hole 4 they were two complete holes behind as the group ahead of them was holing out on 5 as they were just teeing it up on 4. 

As for the crowd, I thought it was very well routed around the course and only when everyone began to migrate to the last hole at the end did it feel like there were that many people there. 

I found out that I enjoy playing the front more, but I far prefer spectating on the back.

Oh and for the USGA, if you are going to ban phones and cameras, then please enforce the rules.  All they did was ask as you walked in if you had them for all the people around me and then they checked my bag as I walk in.  I didn't have them, but several people did and were using them all over the place.  If you are going to have a rule enforce it or let everyone bring them. 
Agreed.  Odd that they would not enforce the only rule that they put on the FRONT of the ticket.

[Chris_Clouser]

Scott,

I could see how guys that drive it 320 yards consistenly could make 14 into a birdie fest.  Not much there to defend it unless they screw up.  

Also agree with your comments on which side you would like to play more.  Apart from 7, I think the front nine is pretty fun to play.  The back is much more about length than finesse unless you switch around tees like they did on 12.  For some reason I don't remember it being like that when I played there for the first time back in high school, though it was obviously like that the last time I had played there.

Also, I thought something as we walked around the course yesterday.  Not having seen it for 10 years I was amazed at how my opinion of the course had changed since I last saw it.  I used to think that courses like Crooked Stick were far and away superior to the public courses in the state that have opened in the last 15 years.  I think I underwent a paradigm shift in my thinking yesterday.  I don't think the top tier of public courses in the state are all that far removed from the top privates anymore.  By that I'm thinking of about 6 or 7 public courses that this holds true with, but not more than that.  I'm going to try and see Sycamore Hills when they host a USGA event later this year and see how it has changed from my college years when I saw it last and see if that thought process holds true up there as well.

[Jeff Goldman]

The distance gains in a generation are pretty amazing.  In the 1997 Senior Open Olympia Fields played about 6800 yards (though a natural par 70), with firm fairways like Crooked Stick.