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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2009, 09:28:42 AM »

Bill, I assume you mean the staircase to 15 after the brilliant uphill par 5?

Steve, by "escalators" I mean that the par 5s take you from the upper level to the lower level (#2 and #11), and from the lower level back up to the upper level (#7 and #14).  They are the connectors of the routing that is in two completely different environments on two separate levels.  Less inspired routing would have had nine holes on each level.   Apparently it took Coore & Crenshaw a long time to find this routing but it was worth the effort.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2009, 10:28:21 AM »
Looks like the clubhouse at WF.



"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2009, 11:27:34 AM »
arguably the greatest piece of art ever created.
...

Certainly the pictures with Ran's review are tops in artistic value IMO. So I think I know where you are coming from.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Anthony Gray

Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2009, 01:22:26 PM »


  Where does Golf Digest rank it?

  Anthony


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2009, 01:27:23 PM »


  Where does Golf Digest rank it?

  Anthony



Why don't you get one of your assistants to look that up and get back to us.

And remember to bring them all new faces from your next trip.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Anthony Gray

Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2009, 01:55:36 PM »


 Why is it not ranked by Golf Digest?

  Anthony


Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2009, 02:06:30 PM »


 Why is it not ranked by Golf Digest?

  Anthony



Because they are too busy pimping Medinah #3, Hazeltine and The Club at Black Rock (#27 in the U.S.? Pfft!)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2009, 02:06:48 PM »


 Why is it not ranked by Golf Digest?

  Anthony



After your assistants went to the trouble to find it is not in the Golf Digest rankings, they really do deserve new faces.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Anthony Gray

Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2009, 02:29:34 PM »


 Why is it not ranked by Golf Digest?

  Anthony



After your assistants went to the trouble to find it is not in the Golf Digest rankings, they really do deserve new faces.




  Garland, they didn't want new faces, they wanted new hats.

 

 

 

 

 


  Anthony



George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2009, 02:54:36 PM »
Friar's Head intrigues me to no end...Hard to think of a course that melds into its surrounds better than FH (or appears to from pictures).

I would kill for a Tim Bert-esque hole-by-hole commentary and picture thread...

Maybe x-mas will come early this year
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2009, 03:01:51 PM »
Gents,

What's the deal here???  Is Ran's write up and large photo spread not enough???

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2009, 03:25:31 PM »
Gents,

What's the deal here???  Is Ran's write up and large photo spread not enough???



There is no such thing as too much commentary or photos of great courses.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2009, 06:13:27 PM »
Well,

If the right person twists my arm hard enough, I'll do the write up with pics in exchange for a round!!  ;D


Andy Troeger

Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2009, 08:31:42 PM »


 Why is it not ranked by Golf Digest?

  Anthony



Because they do not want panelists to visit the course, which is certainly their right. They don't have enough ballots to qualify.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2009, 08:51:39 PM »
Well,

If the right person twists my arm hard enough, I'll do the write up with pics in exchange for a round!!  ;D



ACCESS WHORE ALERT ;D ;D ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2009, 09:51:23 PM »
Hold the phone just one cotton pickin minute

10 terrific holes, 8 in the flats (uninspiring sorry)

What I would have done, is what Pete Dye did at Whistling Straits and created the 8 in the flats to look like the other 10 and then it would be the greatest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2009, 09:56:59 PM »
Hold the phone just one cotton pickin minute

10 terrific holes, 8 in the flats (uninspiring sorry)

What I would have done, is what Pete Dye did at Whistling Straits and created the 8 in the flats to look like the other 10 and then it would be the greatest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He created 18 holes there, not just 8.  He can do that because he is GCA GOD!!!
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2009, 11:46:24 PM »
Hold the phone just one cotton pickin minute

10 terrific holes, 8 in the flats (uninspiring sorry)

What I would have done, is what Pete Dye did at Whistling Straits and created the 8 in the flats to look like the other 10 and then it would be the greatest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cary, I'm surprised to hear you say that.  I thought the holes down in the former potato field were very strong.  #5, exceptional short par 4 with center bunkering and that nasty bunker and knob causing havoc.  #6., very solid dogleg left par 4.  #7, stout par 5 with great diagonal green.  #13 strong strong par 4 heading back toward the dunes.  #14 par 5 with maybe the best green on the property.  I thought C&C paid a lot of attention to those holes down in the field and their work produced some very good golf holes.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2009, 11:47:24 PM »
The original low key clubhouse:



Steve, thanks for this pic.  To me, this clubhouse/pro shop was perfect.  Few buildings capture the spirit of a course better than this one.  I have no doubt that the new clubhouse is absolutely stunning.  But that doesn't make it better.  It just seems like the beautiful girl next door got a stripper's boob job.  A superficial gain that ultimately tarnishes the appeal.  Give me an ice cold Harp flowing from a kegerator next to the fireplace any day.

Ed

Ryan Farrow

Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2009, 09:10:12 PM »
Hold the phone just one cotton pickin minute

10 terrific holes, 8 in the flats (uninspiring sorry)

What I would have done, is what Pete Dye did at Whistling Straits and created the 8 in the flats to look like the other 10 and then it would be the greatest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cary,

I am assuming you are serious here?

To call the holes in the Potato Fields uninspiring is kind of ludicrous, I think if all 18 holes were dramatic the course might be a bit too intense. I thought the routing and integration of those holes is what made the golf course what it is. If you fail to see that......


I would be interested to know what your great courses are like.

Also

 all the talk about the Clubhouse is kind of funny, especially from those who have never been there!

Sure its big, but it fits, and it is a wonderful complement to the course, I think the architect nailed it. The scale of everything else is so grand and spectacular, I thought the clubhouse also needed to achieve that.





Patrick_Mucci

Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2009, 09:19:00 PM »
Ryan,

One of my "early" arguments with Brad Klein had to do with the "impulse or "wow" factor" and its influence on the rating process.

Time and time again I found myself tremendously impressed by a golf course.

However, as time passed, the "wow" and/or newness factor wore off and I was better able to assess the merits of the golf course without the experience blotting out all others.

I think Friar's Head is a really terrific golf course.
I think the entire complex is spectacular.

But, I wonder if you're not under the influence of the "wow" factor ?

Labeling Friar's Head as "the greatest piece of art ever created" is lofty praise indeed.

But, given time, I wonder if your assessment will be tempered ?

Could you calendar a point in time, perhaps 6 or 12 months from now, and then revisit your Friar's Head assessment and tell us if you still feel that it's "the greatest piece of art ever created. "

Thanks

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2009, 09:33:08 PM »
How can Wow be a bad thing?

The entire 36 hole Winged Foot complex was built with the purpose of getting WOW's? I would also say TOC and Kingsbarns (my new fav international course) also have the same thing.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2009, 09:41:36 PM »
How can Wow be a bad thing?

When an awesome set is thrust in front of you at the local go-go or strip bar, your perspective tends to be confined to only that which is six inches or less from your eyes, clouding your frame of reference to any others in your life.  ;D

The here and now blocks out intelligent thought and reflection on all others ;D


The entire 36 hole Winged Foot complex was built with the purpose of getting WOW's?

I don't necessarily agree with that statement.


I would also say TOC and Kingsbarns (my new fav international course) also have the same thing.

Maybe it was the long flight, but, the "Wow" factor at TOC seeme fairly subdued, which is what I expected.

Sometimes, LESS is more.


Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2009, 09:54:13 PM »
Mr. Mucci,

And thus a new question arises regarding the appeal and personal opinion of golf courses.  I am speaking generally now and am writing these words knowing that we have many raters for many publications on this site.  Many non-members also read this site for information and insight regarding courses.  As Mr. Wyatt Halliday said yesterday while we played a friendly match, "Just being on the website makes you an expert."  I tend to agree whether we like it or not.

With that said, it begs the question.  Is a golf course rated by those that play it as members or consistently (8 times a year)?  Is it rated by those in the architectural know that make the "best of" lists in Golfweek, Golf, or Golf Digest?  Is it rated by those--like me I might add--that will hopefully get a once in a lifetime chance to see, study and play the layout?  In my opinion, it matters not. A guy like me would see it once, rack his brain for the rest of his existence remembering the architectural feats of the 9th green or the 14 green, and champion the course to those golfers that had never heard of it till they can stand it no more. Members are happy to be there, enjoy their "new school old school" golf course and have great times and good laughs.  

It's the "in between-ers" that are probably the most skeptical and, IMO, least likely to appreciate the "wow" factor and ability of a golf course to inspire.  I am not saying that raters are the bane of great golf courses.  But I think it's nit-picky and slightly superficial to delve into the minutiae of whether the initial "wow" has anything to do with the quality of golf.  The reason I say this is because the majority of players to somewhere like Friar's or NGLA or PV, may only get to see it once. Therefore, it is futile to really debate how much the "wow" factor plays into the equation.  And really, should we not debate golf courses on their ability to inspire, enthuse, and radiate versus it's peers?

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In My Opinion Friars Head is...
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2009, 09:58:40 PM »
Patrick - WF, from what I have read was built to have 36 finishing holes, which to me translated to WOW's, but I can see how its different as well.

TOC: I think there are plenty of WOW's out there, just in different forms as well. Obviously there are some prettier then others, but the size of some of the greens makes you go WOW. so do about 10 different bunkers, and you always say WOW when you see where your ball rolls to next!