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Chris_Clouser

Maidstone's 17th hole
« on: May 14, 2002, 10:14:46 AM »
I've talked with a couple of people who have mentioned that they feel the 17th green at Maidstone was created by Perry Maxwell.  Well, after looking through the new Quirin book last night, I was curious how this green compares to the others on the course and what makes it stand out.  Also, if someone has a photo to send me or post to the thread, that might help the comparison.  

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Charles_P.

Re: Maidstone's 17th hole
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2002, 06:08:53 PM »
I thought, for sure, that Tom Paul would attack this post with gusto!  In any case, I have often heard the 17th green attributed to Perry Maxwell; however, little evidence seems to support that.

In David Goddard's definitive work, "The Maidstone Links," he suggests that the the second hole's green was the product of, perhaps, Seth Raynor, who assisted C. Wheaton Vaughan in his 1916 work: "Macdonald and Raynor built Road greens everywhere... It is too much of a coincidence not to think that Raynor added this green at Maidstone in 1916, and that Park thought:well, why not.  There is no record, lastly, that Park ever built a similar green anywhere else."  Goddard goes on to say:

"The seventeenth, though, perhaps raises a question in respect to its authorship.. Like the first and second holes it was on the old course (the original fifth on the Florence Quick lot).  It has some of the earmarks of a Willie Park design -- two tiers and a slight fall-off at the back which he sometimes used.  But it is small, quite quirky in comparison to all others on the course, and bears some resemblance to a Road green as well.  For the second shot the hole is set up to play like the seventeenth at St. Andrews.  All the reward is on the right side of the fairway and the risk on the left.  In those days the road was sand and there was no fence.  Many a third shot would have been pitched from the right of the green, from the road itself."

The only record of Perry Maxwell showing up at Maidstone is in 1939, after the hurricane caused extensive damage to the course.  Maxwell had drawn up some plans to suggest improvements, but, ultimately, his plans for a simple (and inexpensive) restoration were adopted.  If he did work on the 17th in that year, someone should remember it!

I've exhausted my typing abilities for the moment; I'll try to respond to your question more directly later.  This weekend, I'll be out there and will try to snap a few pictures for you (but no promises).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Maidstone's 17th hole
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2002, 08:37:40 PM »
The only reason I've said Maidstone's #17 green is a Perry Maxwell green is because Bill Coore swears it is. He said someone he knows there who knows a ton about the course explained the attribution to him.

But other than that Coore is spooky accurate about spotting  a green as Maxwell's. I drove him around my course once in a cart on the fly. I believe I told him that a bunch of architects had done work on our course's midsection over the decades. We have four Maxwell greens on our course and Coore picked out every one of them--and he'd never been to Gulph Mills before!!

We weren't even talking about Maxwell; He just said that looks like Maxwell, that looks like Maxwell, that one looks like Ma......, got four out of four! And with #17 Maidstone, I know what he means--it looks like Maxwell.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Maidstone's 17th hole
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2002, 08:45:21 PM »
I would agree that the 17th at Maidstone looks like a Maxwell green, irrespective of what I also read in the tremendous historical book referenced above.

The size of the green is consistent, and the internal contours are almost unique to the Maxwell style.

What's more, the book makes clear that Maxwell WAS involved at Maidstone beyond his recommendations after the hurricane, for several years (I believe it was 39-43 without digging out the book), and that a number of his more specific hole recommendations were in fact implemented, if not his entire grand scheme.

Nevertheless, it's a wonderful hole with a really superb green.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Charles_P.

Re: Maidstone's 17th hole
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2002, 10:11:54 AM »
Tom-  When I said I was surprised you hadn't responded, it was because I know you love the hole so much (as do I), not because I expected you to argue Maxwell's authorship.  I think it's the most fun hole on the course, especially as the 17th when it will determine a tight match.  I just wish there there more room behind the green, so the grass there could be shorter and offer some more interesting recovery opportunities.

Mike- I was referring to the book when I wrote my post (Maxwell shows up on pages 105-110).  He had proposed three plans.  One had major hole reworks -- such as making the ninth into a par 5 with the green situated on the site of the 14th tee!  However, the plan the club settled on was one that returned to course to its pre-hurricane state.  I'll double-check tonight to much sure I didn't misread what went on.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Maidstone's 17th hole
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2002, 10:19:47 AM »
Charles,

No, you read that section quite correctly.  I don't have the book in front of me right now, but a later section talks about some changes that were made a few years later, and passing those changes by Mr. Maxwell for approval.  

Hope this helps, although it really proves nothing about the 17th green except that Maxwell was involved beyond his initial post-hurrican options.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Maidstone's 17th hole
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2002, 01:31:33 PM »
As good as I think Maxwell was (possibly the greatest green builder who ever lived) you find things all the time that proves these guys made mistakes too.

He blew it on the green and green-end when he redesigned our #7 hole at GMGC but I know why he did what he did--It just didn't work!

Perry Maxwell recommending they turn #9 Maidstone into a par 5 ending at #14 green site??? Very bad idea Perry old boy!! I wouldn't be surprised if all those houses between #15 and the practice range were not there and Maxwell might have been looking at that for other holes. But to blow right by that green site on #9??? Bad Perry, very bad!!!

As Crump finally told Colt when Colt kept insisting that #2 PVGC green be to the left of where it is; "NO GOOD!" and that was the end of that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Sebonac

Re: Maidstone's 17th hole
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2002, 02:16:21 PM »
I actually like that idea for #9...A raised green where 14 tee is would have been spectular....I am not sure what he would have done with 13....perhaps make that a par 4 instead of a par 5 that could be considered a par 4....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Maidstone's 17th hole
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2002, 03:22:39 PM »
Sebonac:

I thought better of answering your question on redesigning #2 NGLA but I had to comment on this.

It's a lot of fun to imagine concepts from great holes or pieces of them or pieces of their landforms being used on other similar landforms or with other similar concepts elsewhere.

That would be the way to phrase these questions not actually recommending redesigning NGLA and Maidstone.

It probably wouldn't be that hard to find a similar ridgeline like #2 NGLA but I really don't think a Biarritz hole would work up on a ridge like that. One of the beauties of the Biarritz is to see the ball disappear into the dip and reappear.

#2 NGLA is one of the more memorable holes in the world and I wouldn't consider it weak because it might be a birdieable hole. It's a good hole because it's possible to actually eagle it or quite easily make a bogie or worse too.

But by recommending a redesign on #2 NGLA you're wrecking a most unique hole and with you're idea for the green on #9 Maidstone on the tee of #14 (Where then would you put the tee on #14?) you are wrecking two of the best holes on the course.

I'm trying to imagine once you've played to the 14th tee/green site for #9 what you'd do next.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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