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Jonathan Webb

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Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« on: June 18, 2009, 07:44:34 PM »
Did anyone on this site participate in this years event?

I know who won and will post my submittal if someone can please PM how to post images.

Thanks.


Jonathan Webb

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 08:30:03 PM »
Thanks to Charlie here is what I submitted.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 08:31:17 PM »
Where are the contest details? I didn't happen to notice it was happening. Charlie, you let me down?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ian Larson

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 08:56:25 PM »
Wow thats good. Is that all done by hand?

Jonathan Webb

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 09:00:04 PM »
Ian,

I did everything by hand and then used Adobe Photoshop and Indesign to help enhance and develop the layout.

Thanks for the kind words.

Bart Bradley

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 09:09:12 PM »
Jonathan:

I just wanted to add my admiration for your drawing...I'd like to give your hole a go.  Well done!

Who won?

Bart

Ian Larson

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2009, 09:22:37 PM »
Jeff Martz won, hes a cartographer from Lancaster, Pa.

I submitted one too. Im out having sushi now and will post it tomorrow....er maybe not after Jonathans putting it to shame.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 09:27:11 PM by Ian Larson »

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2009, 09:26:19 PM »
Sorry Garland, I did let you down! Actually KB paid me not to tell you because he wanted to increase his chances.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2009, 09:27:27 PM »
Fantastic drawing by the way Jonathan! really puts mine to shame. I'll still post it momentarily for comic relief.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2009, 09:30:25 PM »
Here is my submission:






Here is a sketch of it that I did that was not submitted with it for the contest:


Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2009, 10:54:28 PM »
Jonathan
nice work
why do you use indesign?
I'd encourage you to try illustrator for the whole deal - no hand drawing
You can get it to look the same - and then edit it too

charlie
i like your hole - it looks very real
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 12:59:16 AM »
Can someone who participated post the rule/requirements for entry? Perhaps even how you find out about this competition. I started poking around on the MacKenzie site, but didn't see anything about it. I would be nice to judge these things entrys with a better understanding of where they are coming from.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2009, 02:24:00 PM »
Jaeger, Here are the rules:

Quote
Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition
The Conditions of the Competition
(Adapted from the 1914 Country Life contest)

1. The judges awards shall be final and subject to no appeal.

2. The definition of a two-shot hole for the purposes of the competition shall be a hole that is not
less than 360 yards nor more than 460 yards in length, as measured from the back of the teeing
ground to the center of the green.

3. No competitor may submit more than one drawing. The drawing MUST be accompanied by an
entry form as supplied by the competition committee. The envelope containing the entry must be
clearly marked on the outside with "MacKenzie Golf Architecture Drawing" and addressed to
Chair, Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Committee, Green Hills C.C., End of Ludeman Lane,
Millbrae, CA 94030.

4. The entry must be drawn by hand, including any that may be computer assisted. They may be
in black and white or in color. They must show the putting green, teeing ground, fairway, rough,
bunkers, hazards, sand hills, mounds, water, roads, and any other features. These should be
designated by symbols similar to those in the "Lido" drawing shown separately. The side view of
ground elevations (fairway/green) should be similar to that shown in the "Lido" sample drawing.

5. It is recommended, though not required, that a memorandum setting out the merits of the
design be included as a separate document. Such memorandum cannot exceed one side of an
8 1/2 " by 11" sheet of paper.

6. The drawing must bear no logo nor the competitor's name and address.

7. All drawings must be submitted by June 1, 2009. The winner will be announced by July 15,
2009.

8. The Alister MacKenzie Society reserves the right to publish the winning drawing in any form
and in any publications it deems appropriate.

9. All possible care will be taken of the drawing and memoranda, but the Lido Contest
Committee accepts no responsibility for their loss or damage.

NOTE: Submitted drawings will NOT be returned unless a self-addressed
envelope bearing sufficient stamps is enclosed along with the entry.




Announcing the 2008 Alister MacKenzie
"Lido" Prize in Golf Architecture
$3,000.00 Cash Prize for Winner
What is The Lido Prize? It is awarded annually by members of the Alister MacKenzie Society to
honor the memory of Dr. Alister MacKenzie and recognize the design potential of an up and
coming architect. The winner will be invited to attend and participate in the annual Society
gathering to be held at Crystal Downs Country Club, Frankfort, Michigan, September 8-11, 2009.
What does the name Lido come from? In 1914, Dr. MacKenzie's drawing of a "two-shot hole" for
the Lido Golf Course (on Long Island, no longer in existence) won first place in a competition in
Country Life Magazine. The sketch, shown separately, proved to be an important step in
developing his reputation. His books “Golf Architecture” and “Spirit of St. Andrews” expressed
his design philosophy.

Who was Dr. MacKenzie? He was a multi-talented man who served as a surgeon in the Boer War
and as a camouflage expert in World War I, and eventually became recognized as one of the
greatest golf architects of all time. The legacy of his design talents can be found in great golf
courses in the United States, England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and
Argentina.

What distinguished Dr. MacKenzie as a golf architect? MacKenzie designed courses can often be
recognized by distinguishing features. Some of these are:

• There should be variety in the design of holes and they should be fun to play.

• Holes should be fair and challenging for golfers of all skill levels.

• Holes should make use of the natural features of the land.

• Bunkering should guide the player's strategy for playing the course and should
"frame" shots to any greens that are “blind.”.

• Contours and/or multiple tiers add interest to greens. The green should provide an access route
for weaker players and present a challenge for more skilled players.

What kind of design should be submitted? The competition will be restricted to the design of a
proposed (not existing) "two shot," par-four hole. The design should be in the form of an
elaborated sketch giving the viewer a clear idea of how the hole would be constructed and
played. It should show yardages, tee locations, alternative playing routes, hazards, bunkers,
green location and contours with alternative pin placements, and side elevation of the terrain.

Drawings may NOT be larger than 11”X17.”

Obtain entry blanks from almaclido@ sbcglobal.net and submit entries to

Chair, Alister MacKenzie Lido Competition in Golf Architecture
Green Hills Country Club
End of Ludeman Lane
Millbrae, CA 94030

What is the deadline? Entries must be received by June 1, 2009..

Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2009, 02:46:00 PM »
Sorry Garland, I did let you down! Actually KB paid me not to tell you because he wanted to increase his chances.


LOL!


How's he going to increase his chances in THE GRUDGE MATCH aka THE THRILLA IN WALLA WALLA?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2009, 03:06:19 PM »
Gilooly
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2009, 03:54:44 PM »
Gilooly

Nice try Charlie. But you apparently don't follow that story enough. What you don't know is that he filed a suit against Tanya for spousal abuse, because she was always beating him up.

Nothing to be scared of there.

Now my buddy Slagbert put Kalen capture and hold bunkers in at Wine Valley. Now that's something for Kalen to be afraid of.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2009, 05:03:38 PM »
I like Charlie's hole better. To me it has four viable options as drawn, left, right, long, short. Michael's has lots of options drawn, but it seems to me the options are really left, right, and for a few Tiger golfers long. He didn't draw a short option, which seems correct, as short would be blocked for continuation, and short left is just a variant of left, and short right is just a variant of right.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2009, 05:33:08 PM »
Thanks Garland, I wanted to make the options as distinct as possible. I also wanted each option to have it's challenges as well. My main thought when drawing it was that the two left options would have the better angle and the better visibility but the longer distance to cover.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ian Larson

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2009, 05:35:27 PM »
Heres mine. There are a bunch of things that I know are wrong with it but lets see what you guys say. Hack away!


11"x17" ink and watercolor

Kalen Braley

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2009, 06:20:35 PM »
Garland,

i'm not going to be sucked in and hi-jack an otherwise decent thread...there is a designated thread for all WV trash talk!!

Ian,

Thats an interesting looking hole.  I'm assuming the large brown thing is a massive bunker and hoping the course doesn't butt up against a sewer treatment facility. The only thing I would do different is remove the mound on the right side that makes half of that right fairway blind. Seems like there would be too much risk for the corresponding reward to go that direction.

I love seeing all these holes...I hate to admit it, but I'm not near as creative to come up with stuff like this.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2009, 07:04:27 PM »
Great Job Ian! I don't believe your short drive route though. Make that route play as a three shotter, it becomes believable. The rise Kalen mentioned can't be so high as to make the fairway blind, or I have to rule that route out tee.

Can you post the route distances for the visually impaired?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ian Larson

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2009, 08:06:30 PM »
Thanks Garland,

1. 252 / 150
2. 250 / 250
3. 290 / 202
4. 290 / 162
5. 334 / 96
6. 320 / 94

Ive already said to myself I would be the first to renovate my own hole by moving the tee box to the left to give the back tee more of a glimpse of the fairway sliding around the mound on the right and possibly opening up the centerline of the left fairway. I didnt want to get repetitive and use bunkering again over there so I thought a mound similar to the one at Riviera 5 would be cool.

Id also remove the smallest bunker on the right side of the right fairway, with also moving and reshaping or removing altogether the center line bunker.

The intent was to have the right side giving the golfer either a carry shot to the green or to hit a bump and run depending on pin position with the hard line bunker edges coming into fairway play.

If you cant read the legend the brown is a dried up arroyo with some natural flash faces coming into play.

Im about to start landscape architecture classes at ucla with some online CAD program. Any input is appreciated guys. Good or bad.


Jonathan Webb

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2009, 12:15:36 AM »
Mike,

I prefer doing the linework and rendering by hand as opposed to using Adobe products where I feel you get a less artistic look.  Sure it can take more time but I had just graduated college and was killing time before i started work so time was not really a concern.

I have posted my memo I submitted along with the drawing below:

2009 MacKenzie Society – Lido Design Competition
Natural Features” Memorandum

Options from the Tee
-Option 1 (Left Fairway) – This is a more difficult tee shot, than playing to the right, as it plays to a narrower fairway and lingers on the edge of the cliffs that drop dramatically to the ocean below.  The reward for playing to the left is a tee shot that plays 35 feet downhill, a shorter approach shot, and it sets up the best angle of approach as the green is sited from front left to back right and provides contouring that will “help” shots onto the putting surface.
-Option 2 (Over the Rock Outcropping) – With a following wind, the long hitter may choose the most difficult tee shot by opting to drive it over the large rock outcropping, sited between the two fairways, to a blind narrow fairway that is only 30 yards in width.  Although this option will set up the shortest approach shot the tee shot must navigate past deep fairway bunkers; short, left, and right. Any drive pulled to the left is sure to find the ocean and a drive mishit could strike the large outcropping which will put the ball in the hands of the ‘Golfing Gods.’
-Option 3 (Right Fairway) – This is the easiest tee shot as it plays to the widest portion of the fairway, will take the ocean out of play but beware should the tee shot find a fairway bunker a lay up may be necessary.  The right fairway is more than 60 yards wide in some areas but the drawback from taking the safer ‘route’ is having a longer approach shot and being faced with a deep greenside bunker in your line of play.  As the tee shot plays dramatically less downhill, than the left fairway, the longer approach shot from the right fairway will play substantially more downhill than the left making the longer approach a little less daunting.

Alternate Routes – (See labels on drawing)-Route 1 – 255 yd. tee shot (downhill 29 ft.), 168 yd. approach shot (downhill 13 ft.)
-Route 2 – 250 yd. tee shot (downhill 25 ft.), 177 yd. approach shot (downhill 17 ft.)
-Route 3 – 320 yd. tee shot (downhill 40 ft.), 103 yd. approach shot (downhill 2 ft.)
-Route 4 – 300 yd. tee shot (downhill 35 ft.), 116 yd. approach shot (downhill 7 ft.)
-Route 5 – 335 yd. tee shot (downhill 30 ft.), 79 yd. approach shot (downhill 12 ft.)
-Route 6 – 300 yd. tee shot (downhill 15 ft.), 135 yd. approach shot (downhill 27 ft.)
-Route 7 – 250 yd. tee shot (downhill 10 ft.), 183 yd. approach shot (downhill 32 ft.)
-Route 8 – 280 yd. tee shot (downhill 7 ft.), 170 yd. approach shot (downhill 35 ft.)
-Route 9 – 230 yd. tee shot (downhill 5 ft.), 214 yd. approach shot (downhill 37 ft.)

Green Complex
Sited from front left to back right the green complex is a little more than 6500 sq. ft. and is guarded by two deep greenside bunkers that are carved into the hill, right of the green.  The green complex has six distinct pin locations with the most difficult being the far right location that brings both bunkers into play and sits atop a plateau.  The green and green surrounds will be grassed with SeaDwarf Seashore Paspalum which will play fast and firm year round.  The golfer looking to utilize the ‘ground game’ will find the two ridges short left and back middle very helpful when trying to run shots onto the putting surface.[/i]

Ian,

I like your design and rendering as well.  What are the widths on your different fairways?


Jonathan Webb

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Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 07:54:28 PM »
Did anyone else participate or have any suggestions on how to see what the winner came up with?

Scott Witter

Re: Alister MacKenzie Lido Prize Competition - 2009
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 09:22:19 PM »
Jonathan, Ian and Charlie,

These are all great IMO, they all show a genuine interest to do your best work, they are all creative, yet different and the passion shows through.  I am glad you felt comfortable enough to post them.  They are all well presented.  Jonathan, your hand drawing work is excellent, you clearly have a great grasp on how to communicate your thoughts.  Charlie, your presentation is simplier, but very understandable, I like your perspective--just in shades of black & white, effective to get your concept across, it reminds me of your thought process from your routing work with Tom Doak.

Ian, I don't think there is anything 'wrong' with your submission, you are a designer and part of design is trying ideas, testing thoughts, trust me, even the great OZ in Traverse City doesn't get it right the first time every time.  If you didn't think there was room to improve then you wouldn't be a good designer.  I also think your drawing skills tell a lot about creativity--the green site perspective is dynamic and the black and white image was IMO the right way to show it.