[Kalen Braley]

While watching golf channel last night, they had a segment where Rees Jones came on for some discussion. It was pretty standard fare stuff until the very end when he said BethpageBlack is a replica course of Pine Valley.  At 1st this struck me as completely ridiculous because while I've never played either course, from what I've seen in pictures and aerials, the only thing these two courses would seem to have in common is being routed thru trees.

But for those who have played or at least walked both courses, is there much if any validity to this?  If so I would be interested in seeing the comparisons.

Thanks in advance,

Kalen

P.S.  They also asked him about the new tongue on the front of #14 and asked if he restored one of Tillies features, but he admitted it wasn't and it was his thumbprint of sorts on the course. 

[Mike_Cirba]

He didn't say he turned it into a Pine Valley replica?   
 
Short answer to your queston...No.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

To second what Mike C said ... no.

There are some similarities with the land itself -- quite rolling in spots and sand-based to drain well -- we shall soon see this week !

There have been references to what Tillie did there and clearly you have a few holes at BB that encompass a basic look-a-like to some at PV. BB's 7th hole has a vast bunker that could be seen as being comparable to PV's Hell's Half-Acre and the par-3 8th is comparable to what you have with PV's 14th.

Likely Phil Youn can fill in the other esoteric but fun details that may be present.

[Kalen Braley]

He didn't say he turned it into a Pine Valley replica?   
 
Short answer to your queston...No.

Well I think thats what he was trying to imply, and it seemed pretty far fetched when he said ite.....so I thought I would inquire here from those who have played it.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Nothing alike..not even to the non golfer let alone anybody who is remotely familiar with golf course architecture....no hold on...they are both 18 hole courses with green grass and hard as hell

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not intending to pile on here....

But doesn't this speak to ones credibility when they make a claim like this?  Sure if its someone like me saying it, OK no big deal what do I know.  But when one is a "expert in thier field" and they make such an outrageous claim, how does this go unchecked?

I work in a technical industry and guys like this would get laughed out of the building, much less have people lining up to do work or consult for them.  I suppose what one says and what they do can be two different things, so if his clients are pleased, I guess they don't care what he says otherwise. It just seems odd I guessl....in the words of Spock "Its not logical".

[Michael Dugger]

There are about a thousand other examples of holes like the 14th at Pine Valley.

[Mike Sweeney]

From Tillinghast Illustrated:

http://www.tillinghast.net/mediakit327.pdf

In reflecting on his work at Bethpage, Tilly noted that his charge on the Black was to design a course of extreme difficulty, which would compare with Pine Valley as a great test. He wrote, “Without a doubt were the other courses at Bethpage as severe as Black the place would not have enjoyed the great popularity it has known since it was thrown open to the public. Yet thousands of “weak sisters” undoubtedly will flock there insisting with at least one tussle with the Black Leopard, just to show that they can “take it.” This at least has been the situation at Pine Valley since the day it was noised through the land that this man eater was loose. From all quarters the underdogs of golfdom travel to take maybe just one snap at the old killer. If they had to play under such punishing conditions, week in and out, they probably would chuck their clubs in the lake and take to pitching horseshoes for recreation.”


I can't cut and paste it, but on page 12 of the linked in PDF above, Tilly gives credit as "Burbeck's idea" for making one course "severe to a marked degree", in an article called "Man Killers".  Tilly also refers to Pine Valley a couple more times and he himself is clearly looking at comparisons between the two courses.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

Thanks for the context, I think that helps explain a bit better what RJ may have meant to say..

[Jim Tang]

Kalen -

I saw the same segment and wasn't sure what to make of it.  I've never played or even seen either course, so I cannot say for certain, but PV and The Black don't seem anything alike. 

[Mike Sweeney]

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/the-man-behind-bethpage-black-6784/?ref=26000

The comments are at the very end.

[Kenny Baer]

RJ was saying that this was Tillie's Pine Valley; not that BPB was a replica of Pine Valley; I saw the exact same thing you saw.  In no way was he saying that he thought BPB was a Pine Valley replica; it was pretty clear.

[Kalen Braley]

Kenny,

I'm not sure how clear he was on saying it isn't a Pine Valley replica, but by going back and watching the segment, he does seem to say "his Pine Valley replica", referring to Tillies, as compared to when it originally aired it sounded like "its a Pine Valley Replica".

Either way, thanks all for providing the context and I'm glad I just mis-heard.

[Phil_the_Author]

MIke,

Thanks for the plug on the Tillinghast Illustrated reference...

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