"Play the appropriate tees" aka "5192 is ludicrous!"

[John Moore II]

It's kind of funny - a lot of my family in Ireland play the same course fifty to a hundred times a year and there are only two sets of tees. Nobody seems to get tired of playing the course - it's all good craic and the membership has been happy for over a hundred years. And this is a country course, not Ballybunion or Lahinch.

Either they are missing something - or the A.D.D. golfers on this side of the pond are missing something if they need 5 sets of tees to make their home course interesting.

As with most things golf, I tend to think they have it right over there.

Then they play an interesting course with 2 sets of tees. I have played only one course with 2 sets of tees and it was not interesting enough to keep my interest if I had to play it daily. Mid South, however, had 5 sets of tees and I could have played there forever and not gotten bored. Not as much because of the 'number' of tees but because of the overall variety that was available.

How about a course that has only one set of tees? Just one big, long teeing area on every hole. Make it snake like or whatever you want. And players just play from whereever feels right. Play back tips if you want, play from tips if you want. But wait, that'd screw up the whole course/slope rating nonsense though....

[Garland Bayley]

It's kind of funny - a lot of my family in Ireland play the same course fifty to a hundred times a year and there are only two sets of tees. Nobody seems to get tired of playing the course - it's all good craic and the membership has been happy for over a hundred years. And this is a country course, not Ballybunion or Lahinch.

Either they are missing something - or the A.D.D. golfers on this side of the pond are missing something if they need 5 sets of tees to make their home course interesting.

As with most things golf, I tend to think they have it right over there.

Then they play an interesting course with 2 sets of tees. I have played only one course with 2 sets of tees and it was not interesting enough to keep my interest if I had to play it daily. Mid South, however, had 5 sets of tees and I could have played there forever and not gotten bored. Not as much because of the 'number' of tees but because of the overall variety that was available.

How about a course that has only one set of tees? Just one big, long teeing area on every hole. Make it snake like or whatever you want. And players just play from whereever feels right. Play back tips if you want, play from tips if you want. But wait, that'd screw up the whole course/slope rating nonsense though....

Actually, I understand that handicap in Ireland would only be established from competition rounds where there is probably designated teeing areas. The rest of the time you would be free to play from anywhere you so desired.

[Garland Bayley]

I have never understood why this topic comes up so frequently whenever golf is discussed.  Playing from the wrong tees gets blamed for slow play, lack of fun, all sorts of architectural mischief....next it'll be the cause of the financial collapse (too much debt from courses costing more to build those extra sets of tees!)
...

Actually George didn't understand my statement, "5192 is ludicrous" when he started this thread. My meaning was that golf courses suffer from architects following the dangerous fad of placing 5 or 6 sets of tees on their courses to accommodate players of all abilities.

[Phil McDade]

There are certainly some 20s that can hit driver 280, they just can't hit it 280 in play.

Moving up a set of tees doesn't help much if they insist on hitting driver almost every hole. But a good number of HHcappers also derive most of their fun from hitting big drives, not playing smart golf, so it really comes down to what you enjoy. They get more enjoyment out of one pured drive from the blues than a bunch of pars from the whites or further up.

IMO the game would be a lot better if those new to the game were not allowed to carry a driver at all. My uncle who pretty much taught me the game encouraged me to not hit anything longer than a 5 iron for the first couple of years and I am grateful for it.

Reef,

All your points resonate truth.  I have played with HHers who can hit the ball 280 and with LHers who get it out 200-210 yards.  Both are relatively rare, and I would wager that the former plays the "wrong" set of tees much more often than the latter.

I think that all golfers should play whatever tees they want provided they don't slow down play and are mindful of their playing partners.  At my former home course, there are $$$$ 5-some wolf games where the players within a group might play from three different sets of tees and finish well under four hours.

As to how you were taught by your uncle, it is the opposite approach that Jack Grout used to teach Jack Nicklaus.  He had the young boy swing big and hard from the beginning, believing that they could tighten it down later.  For many if not most golfers, hitting the ball a long ways is a thrill and the objective.
George Pazin,

What is it again that you're wailing again?  Did someone suggest you play the front tees and offend you?  There are alot of busy bodies these days telling people how they must think and act.  They deserve only the most brief but poignent acknowledgement.

Lou:

Grout also knew that Nicklaus was an incredible athlete, and saw that he was a terrific student (probably more important than being a great athlete), and knew he could get Jack to rein in his power with accuracy, because Jack would learn how to do it, and importantly have the ability to do it. In that respect, Jack was very similar to Tiger -- Woods has talked about how his father was never all that concerned with Tiger's wildness, early on his development as a golfer, because: a) he knew Tiger had the athletic ability to adjust, and b) finding a way out of all that trouble brought on by his wildness would serve Tiger in the long run (which is decidely true; there has never been anyone better at getting out of trouble than Tiger). I've always thought both Jack and Tiger would have been terrific basketball, football or tennis players, if they had chosen or had the passion for those pursuits.

My golf coach buddy says that for most players, the uncle's advice is the way to go -- most players don't have the athletic skills of Tiger or Jack, and he argues the best skill they can learn is to hit the ball accurately.

[Lou_Duran]

[How about a course that has only one set of tees? Just one big, long teeing area on every hole. Make it snake like or whatever you want. And players just play from whereever feels right. Play back tips if you want, play from tips if you want. But wait, that'd screw up the whole course/slope rating nonsense though....

How about no distinct tees but closely mown areas where you can tee it up anywhere you find a flat spot, or one that gives you a stance you prefer?  Nuzzo's Wolf Point has some of this.

Are handicaps that important for most of us anyways?  If so, have handicap zones and not suffer the pretense of tee and pin setups that have little to do with how the course was rated anyways.  How often are the tees actually placed near the plates and the cups cut in conformance with the rating?  My experience is that weekend setups on many busy courses are much shorter and easier to speed up play.

[Kalen Braley]

[How about a course that has only one set of tees? Just one big, long teeing area on every hole. Make it snake like or whatever you want. And players just play from whereever feels right. Play back tips if you want, play from tips if you want. But wait, that'd screw up the whole course/slope rating nonsense though....

How about no distinct tees but closely mown areas where you can tee it up anywhere you find a flat spot, or one that gives you a stance you prefer?  Nuzzo's Wolf Point has some of this.

Are handicaps that important for most of us anyways?  If so, have handicap zones and not suffer the pretense of tee and pin setups that have little to do with how the course was rated anyways.  How often are the tees actually placed near the plates and the cups cut in conformance with the rating?  My experience is that weekend setups on many busy courses are much shorter and easier to speed up play.

Lou,

Ditto for Ballyneal....it was very cool!

[Carl Johnson]

I have never understood why this topic comes up so frequently whenever golf is discussed.  Playing from the wrong tees gets blamed for slow play, lack of fun, all sorts of architectural mischief....next it'll be the cause of the financial collapse (too much debt from courses costing more to build those extra sets of tees!)
...

Actually George didn't understand my statement, "5192 is ludicrous" when he started this thread. My meaning was that golf courses suffer from architects following the dangerous fad of placing 5 or 6 sets of tees on their courses to accommodate players of all abilities.

Please elaborate on the "dangerous fad" issue -- why is it a fad and why is it dangerous?  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[Garland Bayley]

I have never understood why this topic comes up so frequently whenever golf is discussed.  Playing from the wrong tees gets blamed for slow play, lack of fun, all sorts of architectural mischief....next it'll be the cause of the financial collapse (too much debt from courses costing more to build those extra sets of tees!)
...

Actually George didn't understand my statement, "5192 is ludicrous" when he started this thread. My meaning was that golf courses suffer from architects following the dangerous fad of placing 5 or 6 sets of tees on their courses to accommodate players of all abilities.

Please elaborate on the "dangerous fad" issue -- why is it a fad and why is it dangerous?  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Much of my thinking is sprinkled throughout this thread.

Golf was played for eons without multiple tees. The current fad is to build multiple tees. Hopefully the fad will end when the people begin to understand the pain exceeds the gain.

Some of the pain has been outlined above, such as promoting the increasing dependency by architects on golf carts.
One of the most significant factors in the pain is that nothing of real strategic value is obtained for the vast majority of the golfing public. This is my conclusion from some reasons outlined above. However, one must consider what Tom Doak has written in the past.

Tom has written that it is impossible to make the stategic elements of a design pertinent to multiple tees. He even at one point challenged Craig Sweet (who was arguing the opposite side) to go out and examine Old Works closely and write an essay to support his (Craig's) point of view. Because Tom understands this impossibility, he concentrates on making the strategy most pertinent to the average male golfer, i.e., the standard tees. His clients obviously want their (useless) bragging points so they sometimes force him to tack on back tees to extend yardage.

Hope this helps.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Thanks for mentioning the Four Mile Ranch situation on mix and match for tee boxes. No doubt this would have proven helpful for the gent you played with at PV. It could certainly be something carried out by other courses as well.

[John Moore II]

[How about a course that has only one set of tees? Just one big, long teeing area on every hole. Make it snake like or whatever you want. And players just play from whereever feels right. Play back tips if you want, play from tips if you want. But wait, that'd screw up the whole course/slope rating nonsense though....

How about no distinct tees but closely mown areas where you can tee it up anywhere you find a flat spot, or one that gives you a stance you prefer?  Nuzzo's Wolf Point has some of this.

Are handicaps that important for most of us anyways?  If so, have handicap zones and not suffer the pretense of tee and pin setups that have little to do with how the course was rated anyways.  How often are the tees actually placed near the plates and the cups cut in conformance with the rating?  My experience is that weekend setups on many busy courses are much shorter and easier to speed up play.

But the handicap zone thing defeats the purpose. The idea of the single tee box would simply be to tee the ball up where ever you feel like on a given hole. But indeed, what is the real purpose of handicaps? If you don't plan on playing tournaments, they have less usefullness. I would love to see a course designed with no specific tee markers, it would make play very interesting.

[Garland Bayley]

...I would love to see a course designed with no specific tee markers, it would make play very interesting.

How about a GPS score card. You simply click it at the place you tee off. Also store scores in its memory. Then when returning to the clubhouse, plug the device into a station, and a scorecard is printed complete with custom course rating and slop. Furthermore, the station could be used to post the score.

[Tom Huckaby]

...I would love to see a course designed with no specific tee markers, it would make play very interesting.

How about a GPS score card. You simply click it at the place you tee off. Also store scores in its memory. Then when returning to the clubhouse, plug the device into a station, and a scorecard is printed complete with custom course rating and slop. Furthermore, the station could be used to post the score.

Not sure if you meant this in jest.. but that could really work... and with really no new technology required... oh one would have to write some software, and get the local golf associations in line to give the hole by hole rating figures... but it really could work.

And would indeed be one hell of an idea, as NOT being tied to specific tees on each hole is so darn fun....

Great work, Garland.
 

[Garland Bayley]

...I would love to see a course designed with no specific tee markers, it would make play very interesting.

How about a GPS score card. You simply click it at the place you tee off. Also store scores in its memory. Then when returning to the clubhouse, plug the device into a station, and a scorecard is printed complete with custom course rating and slop. Furthermore, the station could be used to post the score.

Not sure if you meant this in jest.. but that could really work... and with really no new technology required... oh one would have to write some software, and get the local golf associations in line to give the hole by hole rating figures... but it really could work.

And would indeed be one hell of an idea, as NOT being tied to specific tees on each hole is so darn fun....

Great work, Garland.
 

My understanding is that you don't need no stinking hole by hole rating figures. You only need to + or - yardage from a set of rated positions and can get the new ratings from that. Huckaby, you need to keep up! There is a lot of useful information on this site if you only choose to use it!




 

[Tom Huckaby]

Well... it's not like I've done these course ratings for six years now... how long have you participated in the process, Garland?

And your understanding is correct, for the most part.  But of course, that's exactly what I meant; and I fail to see how you are saying anything different than what I just said.  You do need the ratings, hole by hole, starting from fixed points (ie the tees already rated).  If you have this, you could indeed adjust a little based on yardage - there are simple calculations for that.  We don't do it that way NOW - the rule is only tees more than 25 yards apart are rated - which makes sense given the deviations tend to be so small.  But anyway take the rating for a hole, adjust for the yardage difference, voila, there's the rating to be used for that hole.  Doit all 18 times - as your device obviously would - bingo, it works.

In your zeal to attack, you rather wildly missed that we are saying the same thing.

Or at least I think we are... you're not suggesting doing this based on a TOTAL difference for the entire course played (from the rated tees), are you?  Yes that would work too... but would not be nearly as accurate as the method I suggest.  Given said method is pretty damn simple (courses are rated hole by hole as it is), I assumed a smart guy like you would go for the most accurate way to do it.

Or do you really want to half-ass this great idea of yours?

[Garland Bayley]

Tom,

You think I am serious when I put  on my post? Your issue apparently is a lack of ability to read emoticons! If I hadn't met someone claiming to be you, I would guess you were really Dan Kelly masquerading under a different name here. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

You think I am serious when I put  on my post? Your issue apparently is a lack of ability to read emoticons! If I hadn't met someone claiming to be you, I would guess you were really Dan Kelly masquerading under a different name here. 

Garland, you say so many things in so many different ways, constantly, you are a riddle wrapped in a paradox wrapped in an enigma.  I say with all honesty I do not have the faintest clue when you are serious and when you are not.  And emoticons are often a crutch, so I do not give them 100% weight.

In any case, I was serious that your idea could work.  And it would be a benefit as it would remove people from being too tied to playing fixed tees, which I see as a good thing.

TH

[Garland Bayley]

Tom,

Please review 5.2g in your handicap manual.

[Tom Huckaby]

Read and undrerstood, Garland.

That is how one can do it NOW - WITHOUT the "Garland Device".

With the "GD", we can do better.

Or did you really mean that your device gives zero improvement on something one could do pretty much by stepping things off and carrying a printed table?

[Garland Bayley]

Read and undrerstood, Garland.

That is how one can do it NOW - WITHOUT the "Garland Device".

With the "GD", we can do better.

Or did you really mean that your device gives zero improvement on something one could do pretty much by stepping things off and carrying a printed table?

Tom,

The GPS devices that have gained wide popularity gave zero improvement on just stepping things off. So, I would suggest there must have been more than zero improvement.

Not being a course rater, the only way I knew of to adjust rating and slope was the referenced table.

I would note that with device there would be no need to even post markers where the rating(s) were taken from. The players just choose the section of turf they wish to tee off from at Ballyneal (and others such as CB that have loosely designated teeing ares) and play away.

[Tom Huckaby]

Garland:

Yes, there would be no need for posted markers.  And yes, one could do it exactly as you state, OBVIOUSLY.  And yes, as I said, the table is the way to do it NOW and I never stated otherwise.  I just assumed you might want to improve on how it's done now given your suggestion - SILLY ME!

As for the rest, UNCLE.  I tired of your game-playing ages ago.  You've not helped matters today.  Again I have zero clue what part you mean seriously (if any) and what part is smartass rambling.

So you win.  Congrats.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

  It is all fun and games until someone looses an eye.

  Anthony

 

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

Yes, there would be no need for posted markers.  And yes, one could do it exactly as you state, OBVIOUSLY.  And yes, as I said, the table is the way to do it NOW and I never stated otherwise.  I just assumed you might want to improve on how it's done now given your suggestion - SILLY ME!

As for the rest, UNCLE.  I tired of your game-playing ages ago.  You've not helped matters today.  Again I have zero clue what part you mean seriously (if any) and what part is smartass rambling.

So you win.  Congrats.

TH

     I'm clueless. Any help would be appreciated.     

[Anthony Gray]

  Garfunkel,

  Knock it off. He cried UNCLE!!

  Anfernee

 

[Cristian]

I think that talk here is too much focused on resistance to scoring, but I think other things come into the equation as well: The Back tee's are often elevated and offer great views. Also from the Back tee's there are often more diagonal and/or optional carries to the fairway, adding strategy. What if people enjoy that?

I'm a 12 handicapper and would typically play medal tee's if anywhere in the vicinity of a modest 6300-6700 yards. However, sometimes I would like to experience the course from some different angles and/or views, especially if I have been there before. A 20 hcap may want to do the same. I see nothing wrong with that. As long as they do not slow down play on the course, why not let everyone decide for himself what he likes most?

Finally distance does not mean all that much; if a course has 5 or 6 par 3's, or some challenging short par4's, a lot less distance is needed to present the same challenge. Also; In our climate (N-W europe) a course will easily play 500 yards longer in winter than in summer.

How about this: A good superintendant (or whomever is responsible) should set up the tee's keeping conditions in mind, and just provide longer and medal tee's for both men and women, keeping things simple (and avoiding 8 sets of different coloured tee's). And then everybody should decide for themselves....

[Adam Clayman]

Played a Brauer today from 5280. Had a blast except for the blind water hazard on 9. Thankfully, the white tees had only small mounds for us crippled and aged to climb.

Made me think of this thread so I pulled it up.

Thoughts on the subject are this;

Golf should be whatever each person wants it to be. Perhaps that's why there's so many courses?
 But the notion that, architects accommodating more with shorter teeing grounds is a shortcoming, is not only wrong. It is  agin the inclusive nature of public golf and should only be considered for private venues, or, people with sticks crammed up their arses.