Greens on flat ground -Colt/Morrison's Toxandria -pics-

[Cristian]

Scott's thread on New Zealand GC made me think; Which courses on flat sites have interesting greens without looking out of place and artificial? I have included some pictures of a course I like in the Netherlands which, like New Zealand has created interesting features on a naturally flat site. I would like to hear reactions and/or see other examples, maybe done in a different kind of way?

The first picture comes from the first hole of this course; The green site has an interesting bump to the left side of the green, not connected to a bunker, it can be used to kick the ball towards the centre or right side of the green (playing conditions are fairly fast and firm, especially in summer), thus avoiding a flirt with the front right bunker.

The second picture is the approach to the 2nd a short par 5. Playing conditions allow for a high shot or a shot running up the green. There are two bunkers, but the one on the left is actually your friend as it can save your ball from kicking OOB long and left. The green is built up by no less than 2 or 3 yards, yet the green site to me never looks out of place, perhaps because of the backdrop trees, but I am not sure.

[Cristian]

The 3rd pic is of hole 3. Again there is an interesting hump this time well short of the green and left of centre; a running shot can change direction off this hump, but a high ball can also get caught in the grass, which is of medium length.

[Tom_Doak]

Christian:

Nice pictures; I'll be curious to find out which course that is (eventually).

In addition to the treed background, the bump on the right short of the green helps to blend in the second green complex.  Because it's in the foreground, the bump on the right doesn't have to be very high to look like it's as high as the green.

[Cristian]

3rd set of pics is of the par3 4th, again a built up green with considerable bunkering on the left side, not so on the right side tempting players to flirt with a kick back down the hill or to the right leaving interesting chip shots.

[Cristian]

Another set of pics of yet another par 3 at the same course, which I really like; the hole looks pretty straight forward but the second picture shows that there is well over an extra club of room between the bunkers and the putting surface.

[Cristian]

This is another one I like; A long par 4, but with no raised green. Just the one bunker on the left, and a wide open entrance on the right side, the bunker on the right is at least 50 yds short of the green and the backslope of the bunker can actually help shots roll onto the green. I have hit 200 yd drawing 6i's onto this green that way. Great hole, great fun! (Although last time I hooked it into the bunker left of the green and made 9.....)

[Cristian]

All pictures above are from a course in the Netherlands called Toxandria. I think it is known by relatively few on this site. It was designed by Colt and Morrison before the war, though laid out, partly before and partly after, with some twenty odd years in between, I understand.

Another hole on this course I really like (although unlike the other examples this green occupies a more natural looking small hill), is the 9th which plays over the fairway of the 8th.

[Joe Hancock]

Cristian,

Very cool pictures. Thank you for taking and posting them.

Joe

[Ronald Montesano]

CW,

What kind of hole is 9, a par three?  How bad is your sand game that you were in the bunker in two, down in nine?  I'm a big fan of creative greenbuilding on flat land, having grown up in the flatlands surrounding Buffalo, NY.  South of the city are hills, but the first three rings of suburbs are pancake flat.  We typically find, thanks to the uninspired William Harries, a circular green sloped back to front, with bunkers on either side, an open run up area in front, with little movement on the green itself, on our municipal courses.  In the last dozen years, thank God, a number of privately owned, public access courses have opened, giving us much more diversity and quality.  Our private clubs are strong, with Travis, Ross, Tillinghast, Colt/Allison and a tranquil RTJ Sr. represented.

I don't have anything to add to your quest for inspired greens on flat courses, although I won't stop looking.

[Cristian]

CW,

What kind of hole is 9, a par three?  How bad is your sand game that you were in the bunker in two, down in nine?  I'm a big fan of creative greenbuilding on flat land, having grown up in the flatlands surrounding Buffalo, NY.  South of the city are hills, but the first three rings of suburbs are pancake flat.  We typically find, thanks to the uninspired William Harries, a circular green sloped back to front, with bunkers on either side, an open run up area in front, with little movement on the green itself, on our municipal courses.  In the last dozen years, thank God, a number of privately owned, public access courses have opened, giving us much more diversity and quality.  Our private clubs are strong, with Travis, Ross, Tillinghast, Colt/Allison and a tranquil RTJ Sr. represented.

I don't have anything to add to your quest for inspired greens on flat courses, although I won't stop looking.

9 is indeed a par 3 of 180-195 yards (dep. on tee's used). . If you're a fan of creative greenbuilding on flat land, do have a look at the Paris St Germain course profile on this site.

I think I have said enough about my bunker game, no need to rub it in....

[Sean_A]

I sure like the concept of this hole and it strikes me as somewhat different as I can see many people playing it like a dogleg.  Its a shame about the bunkers - they are dreadful.  Its another case of one bunker would have done the job, but why not put in three?  In truth, it looks as though one larger bunker has been broken up. 


Do you have more pix?

Ciao

[Cristian]

I sure like the concept of this hole and it strikes me as somewhat different as I can see many people playing it like a dogleg.  Its a shame about the bunkers - they are dreadful.  Its another case of one bunker would have done the job, but why not put in three?  In truth, it looks as though one larger bunker has been broken up.  


Do you have more pix?

Ciao

Sean, I'm not quite sure what you mean by dogleg, bear in mind it's a par 3 of some 135 yards only. I think you are partly right about the bunkering; there used to be only two, I think and the slope to the right has been made less severe.

I have some more pics, Ill include three of the par 5 14th; a relatively short par5 with a cross bunker some 130 yds from the green; a safe lay-up can easily result in a long approach; long hitters can go for the green in two as, similar to no.11, the green is protected on the left side only and temps the long hitter to try for a long draw rolling onto the green.

Also the Tee-shot from the 2nd tee (par 5) which is hit over the green of no. 1.  A good concept since after putting out it will always take a while for the green to be occupied anyway; thus making maximum use of the terrain. I have seen the same at Ballybunion and Cork GC in Ireland, yet it does not seem popular with modern architects.

[Cristian]

More Toxandria Pics

Link from flickr hopefully it works.....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cwillaert/sets/72157619745449577/

Hole 3 from the fairway; central bunker in the foreground some 40 yds off the green, top left the mound protecting the left side.




The approach of hole 10; on the left the blue nesting house in the trees indicating 150m from centre green.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Christian, Do you know Royal Antwerp in Belgium? Its site is about as flat as could be and the greens and moundwork are a model for they are absolutely not out of scale, yet they add a lot of interest. Hilversumsche is not quite as flat (you can even get blind shots) but, again, there is some endearing interest.

[Cristian]

Christian, Do you know Royal Antwerp in Belgium? Its site is about as flat as could be and the greens and moundwork are a model for they are absolutely not out of scale, yet they add a lot of interest. Hilversumsche is not quite as flat (you can even get blind shots) but, again, there is some endearing interest.

Mark,

I agree on Royal Antwerp; one of my favourites in the Blux! Have you seen Toxandria? It seems to be one of those courses that are under the radar here in the low countries for a lot of international golfers.

Today I played Hilversum; The Kyle Phillips renovation on a considerable part of the course is now almost finished. I made some pics which I'll post soon. As a taster a few pics from the new 18th with enlarged swale and extra bunkers. (There used to be just two bunkers and the swale was smaller.) Next year the dutch open will move back to Hilversum as alterations will have finished.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks much, Cristian.

You can take the Colt out of England, but you can't take England out of the Colt.

Who can know, but if I had to guess I'd say that Colt was a man very comfortable in his own skin.

I've never seen a picture of any hole/course he was involved in where he seemed to be "working too hard".

There is no "agitation" in his golf course - if that make sense.

There is always a subtle beauty in that, and it feels like there is a "life" laying just underneath the surface, more vibrant that any surface feature.

I've never been anywhere, golf-course wise, so this is all just from pictures and reading -- but for my tastes, if god was a golf course developer, I think Colt would be his go-to guy...

Peter

[Cristian]

Thanks much, Cristian.

You can take the Colt out of England, but you can't take England out of the Colt.

Who can know, but if I had to guess I'd say that Colt was a man very comfortable in his own skin.

I've never seen a picture of any hole/course he was involved in where he seemed to be "working too hard".

There is no "agitation" in his golf course - if that make sense.

There is always a subtle beauty in that, and it feels like there is a "life" laying just underneath the surface, more vibrant that any surface feature.

I've never been anywhere, golf-course wise, so this is all just from pictures and reading -- but for my tastes, if god was a golf course developer, I think Colt would be his go-to guy...

Peter

If you say little agitation, I think you probably mean what I always call "less is more-architecture". Every hazard or feature has its purpose and maximum strategy is achieved with a minimum of ground movement/hazard building.