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Derek_L

the most talked about par three, errr par four?
« on: May 12, 2002, 09:48:54 PM »
The par three, 16th at Cypress point may have actually designed as a par four with the hidden back tee up on the hillside thus making for a much feircer forced carry.  Golf Digests suggests otherwise, what do you think?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2002, 12:03:08 AM »
Derek-

When i get my first chance to play that great hole- i'll let you know for sure ;).

However, considering that it is the greatest hole in the world, it would seem hard to believe it could have been designed any other way.

I always thought Marion Hollins, while out with MacKensie scouting the land at Cypress, hit a ball from the current tee onto the penninsula where the green is currently and proclaimed that should be the location of the green. Have you heard this story?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2002, 04:39:20 AM »
Derek:

Have heard that theory many times, and even broached it
during our visit(s) there with the caddies and they told us
it is untrue.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Yancey_Beamer

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2002, 08:50:15 AM »
Alister MacKenzie wrote"I was in no way responsible for the hole.It was largely due to the vision of Miss Marion Hollins. It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor thatit was a pity that the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site. Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry.She then teed up a ball and drove to the middle of the site for the suggested green."
This is in Alister MacKenzie'sCypress Point Club by Geoff Shackelford,Champion in a Man's World By David Outerbridge  and The Spirit of St. Andrews.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2002, 10:59:53 AM »
Yancey,

The tale sounds more like a legend/fantasy than a reality, unless the wind was howling at her back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2002, 11:10:48 AM »
Patrick:

Marion Hollins was an accomplished golfer and superb athlete. She would have had no trouble at the 16th, wind or no wind. She held her own with Bobby Jones in friendly matches.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2002, 11:30:50 AM »
Bob,

Having had to hit a rock solid, low, drawing driver into a good wind, with reasonably better equipment, I have my doubts on the story.

Maybe it's true, or maybe it's folklore, everyone can make their own choice, I've made mine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2002, 01:19:57 PM »
I think it's absolutely a true story! We don't have to assume she hit the ball from exactly the same place as the back tee is, you know, although I wouldn't be surprised if she could have.

I can see Raynor saying that to Marion as he wasn't a golfer at all and no shot had likely been tested there! All you have to do is understand that she was a US Amateur Championship and just look at a picture of her--she was one very large woman, about twice the size of Babe Zaharias--and Pat I guarantee you Babe could have given you a run for your money off the tee--that was something she did all the time against good men players. She's make a bet, then step back to the championship tee and double the bet or something and factor driving into it too. When they asked her how she could hit it so far and outdrive men she's say: "I just hitch up my girdle and let it fly!"

I heard that from Betty Jameson (US Open Champ) one of her LPGA founding companions and competitors--she did that all the time--did it to all the women once in an exhibition match in England against the four top men amateurs in England including the current Amateur champion! Babe and the other three girls all won their matches, scratch from the championship tees--one of the great golf stories I've ever heard!!

I asked Betty how in hell that was possible and she said she really didn't know except two to three of them were from windy Texas--and then there was The Babe! She said those men told the ladies that they had some shots they'd never seen before.

The 16th Cypress stayed on the routing in a couple of iterations including the short app. 300yd par 4.

But I can see Marion Hollins doing that! Christ, I heard she cut a 3 wood up into the wind to hold it on line!! Somebody tried to tell her to hit a driver but she said; "If I really caught my driver flush I'd put it over the entire green site out into the Pacific Ocean beyond!!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2002, 01:59:17 PM »
TEPaul,

I've observed Beth Daniels, Karrie Webb, Joann Carner, and a few other top LPGA players who play out of Pine Tree, with modern day equipment and modern day golf balls.

I have my opinion, others are entitled to theirs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Marion Hollins

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2002, 06:01:46 PM »
Tom is right.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2002, 06:06:13 PM »
Marion,

About what ?    ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Marion Hollins

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2002, 06:10:39 PM »
Pat, Most things! ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2002, 06:26:50 PM »
Marion,

Including the STYMIE, Merion and C&C ?   ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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Marion Hollins

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2002, 06:30:02 PM »
I used the stymie many times to my advantage, but I do love the work of C&C, although that new one on Long Island looks a little to much like CPC for my taste ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Marion Hollins

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2002, 06:31:35 PM »
Now Patrick, be nice I could be your mom :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Yancey_Beamer

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2002, 08:26:51 PM »
The comments from the caddies is dismissed as "caddie talk" at Cypress."Caddie talk" often increases tips.
Marion hit the shot.Go with Geoff who has researched this quite thoroughly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2002, 08:34:20 PM »
Yancey,

I'm sure Geoff did extensive research, but that doesn't mean the incident is completely factual.

If you've ever stood on that tee, with the wind and spray in your face, I think you'd be more likely to agree with me, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2002, 08:50:26 PM »
I've played that hole more times than I deserve and I also find it hard to believe that Ms. Hollins with that equipment could hit a rope to the present green?  A few years ago they did have the first hole in one by a woman on the hole so today its possible but most women probably (i'm guessing) hit driver.

If the story is true, I wonder what she did with her drives on #8, #9 and #17?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2002, 08:54:05 PM »
Go with Geoff on this one! Let me say it again, we really don't know exactly where Marion hit the shot from since the tees were not there and we might assume therefore it might not have been from where the tip tee blocks are placed today.

And I would also say that for many male amateur golfers, other than those like Matt Ward obviously, if they teed it up with some long hitting ladies of any era they are probably going to outdrive you from the same tees some or much of the time. And Marion Hollins again, was obviously one of those--just look at her for Chrissakes!

In that context, it might be reasonable to assume that if Marion Hollins could not do it the tees would probably not have been built-because about 75% of regular male amateur golfers would never have been able to do it either!

I do realize that directly effects most male golfer's perceptions and probably their manhood too--but unfortunately it's true! I have a strong feeling that if one Bobby Jones (a golfer who could play a little) were around today he'd tell you the same thing--some of his comments about playing in Europe, particularly with Joyce Wethered, are pretty damn interesting!

And then of course there are the endless stories about how far Babe Zaharias could drive the ball! I guess all those stories are untrue too! And Babe was about 1/2 the size of Marion Hollins!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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TEPaul

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2002, 09:11:00 PM »
Actually there is another version of that Marion Hollins shot on #16 that personally I don't subscribe to!

The coast culture always having been on the vanguard of things in America some people say that it was not really Marion Hollins who hit the shot anyway, although many people assumed that it was. It's known that a few members of that famous Monterey Peninsula architectural team were getting quite tired of all the endless iterations on that hole and wanted a determination made once and for all!

They say the truth is it was Chandler Egan in drag!

Again, I don't subscribe to that story and personally I feel it was concocted for the benefit of all the men who suddenly felt emasculated when Marion's 3 wood landed on the back of what is today the 16th's green site!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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Yancey_Beamer

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2002, 09:21:48 PM »
I've stood on that tee more than once. Go with Geoff.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2002, 09:44:35 PM »
I can tell you it is 197 yds to carry the sea wall, not caddie talk.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2002, 10:49:29 PM »
Who cares about the caddie talk? Are you saying Marion Hollins could have carried the ball 197yds or not?

Listen to us! A couple of famous architects are known to have credited Marion Hollins for hitting a shot that determined the finalization of the design of one of the world's most famous golf holes and we're relying on "caddie talk"?

"Caddie talk" is one of the most prevalent sources of the BS lore in the annals of golf and we're relying on "caddie talk".

I wonder how many caddies there were out there anyway when they were finalizing the design of the 16th! Not a one, I'm relatively sure, although I'm more sure there were probably a good numbers of caddies back then who said they were!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: the most talked about par three, errr par four
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2002, 07:51:14 AM »
I cant tell if your as pissed as you seem.

The truth is that people are individuals and just because someone caddies at CPC doesn't mean they know anything, but there are a few who do. SO stereotype away, but the fact is, it was a bunch of caddies,  who on a rainy day, took a fishing line and accurately measured the carry.

Also,

I have been fortunate to have met both current and former caddies from cpc, and the one who remembers 'the babe' vividly, went on to become an educator in san jose and has retired back on the peninsula. He recalls how well she smashed the little ball and so, I have little doubt that M.H. could have carried the ball the needed amount.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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