[ed_getka]

Here is a picture of the sixth at Riveria just to show people

Thanks for providing the picture. Lynn makes a good point about a front middle pin. That would probably come closest to inducing the fear off the tee of the Eden, given the bunker behind and in front of that pin position.

Michael,
   Given the number of times you have played the hole what pin position(s) do you fear most on #6?
TOC, NB, and if you have Dornoch on the intinerary then your life will be complete.

[BCrosby]

One of the criticisms of The Eden at TOC during the Golden Age went something like: - It is possible to play it with only a putter, ergo it can't be a great hole.

Joshua Crane, Taylor and others leveled that criticism. In the 1920's MacK and Behr pushed back, at one point claiming that if a hole can't be played only with a putter, it can't be a great hole. (Not sure I agree, but an interesting take.)

As someone mentioned recently, I suspect that that criticism of The Eden was on CBM's mind when he built the 13th at NGLA. Which seems to me to have missed what makes the hole so great. Whether or not you can play it with a putter is irrelevant. What makes the hole so great is the dramatic movement of the contouring in the green and its surrounds. With the deep, nasty Strath and Hill bunkers playing key roles.

Which is to say that CBM solved the wrong problem on his 13th at NGLA. Or better put, at the 13th at NGLA, CBM solved something that wasn't a problem.


Bob

 

[Bob_Huntley]

Guys-

That picture of Riveria has no resemblance of perception or strategy to the real Eden  in my opinion. 

Chip,

I have not played the 6th as often as MIchael but it has to have been several hundred times and I agree with your comment.

Having aced the hole, I consider myself an expert on the subject.

Bob

[Ross Tuddenham]

Michael Robin

Hi

Just wondering as I have never played Riviera where is the tee in relation to the green, is it on the same line as the tee at TOC 11th.  I ask this becuase I thought one of the merits of the eden was the option to play the hole without carrying any of the bunkers.  I suppose the only other thing is how do the contours affect the role of a ball going towards the bunkers?


Also tom i hope you don't mind me poting this but I remembered watching a video of you and Jim discussing your eden hole on old macdonald number 2.  I thought it was an interesting little video with a good insight into your thoughts on the hole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1s_DrVCaTc

[JC Urbina]

Kye

  I have always understood the Eden to represent options.  If the hole location was directly behind the Strath bunker it required an exacting shot if you chose to carry the bunker. The Strath didn't protect the entire green only a certain pin location with a smallish bunker  Other options are to play over cockle or roll it up left of the strath using the steep approach hoping it doesn't roll of the back of the green.  Three options using one shot.  Maybe simplified but my take.   I can't remember such a small bunker protecting such an important pin location.  Maybe the 17th at Sawgrass or The Devils @#$% at  Pine Valley.

 Michael

I agree that the inspiration for the 6th may have been the Eden hole.  I know that a hole doesn't have to be duplicated or copied to have the intent.  Certainly Thomas produced a hole that had options and when a certain pin location was chosen a bunker protected that location.   I was just making a general statement more towards Raynor then Thomas.  I believe that Mackenzie, Thomas and others of that era never talked about the Ideal holes but certainly considered many of them when designing golf holes.  Your observation of the Barranca being used as the Channel hole is interesting.

[Michael Robin]

Ed - Front left is the toughest pin placement because of how steep the back to front slope is from the middle bunker to the front of the green. It's actually better to miss the green short than have a 10 footer from above the hole. If you miss the 10 ft putt you have a 15 footer for par. You can have the 10 footer from either side of that pin and if you miss the putt, you have the long par saver again. The back left is in a bowl with a bunch of slope, but not as nasty as the front, although people usually assume that there is more break back there than there is.

The right side is a big fun punchbowl that when the pin is back, a shot hit into the banks beyond the pin will give you a thrill as it collects near the hole and might even go in(see Bob Huntley).

Ross - The only thing I can tell you is that you can't play the 6th at Riviera with a putter from the tee. It is perched on a hill across what once was the Barranca, so in Thomas' day, there was a creek there.

[Michael Robin]

Hey Jim, how about this, Macdonald's 4 ideal par 3s are all represented at Riviera - Redan at the 4th, Eden at the 6th, Biarritz at 15, and Short at 16. Think that is a coincidence?

[Ross Tuddenham]

Yeah I do remember reading that Mackenzie thought it was a great feature that meant a hole could be played with a putter from the tee.  I suppose this was in line with his aim to provide a route for all abilities.  Having said that I remember messing around one day playing a putter from the tee of a par three and the resulting curve on the face of the putter was a bit of an issue. 

I suppose it means the hole could be described as having an Eden green rather than strictly a Eden hole as a whole?

[Kye Goalby]

Kye

  I have always understood the Eden to represent options.  If the hole location was directly behind the Strath bunker it required an exacting shot if you chose to carry the bunker. The Strath didn't protect the entire green only a certain pin location with a smallish bunker  Other options are to play over cockle or roll it up left of the strath using the steep approach hoping it doesn't roll of the back of the green.  Three options using one shot.  Maybe simplified but my take.   I can't remember such a small bunker protecting such an important pin location.  Maybe the 17th at Sawgrass or The Devils @#$% at  Pine Valley.

Jim, Thanks for the response, sorry it took me so long to see it.  

I am still not sure I understand how the Strath is so different from a multitude of bunkers in the world of golf that are deep and protect a tough pin that "requires an exacting shot" and creates options relative to how to attack or play conservatively.  

I don't have much experience at St Andrews, having only played three rounds there, but to me the big thing that stood out with the eden hole was the slope of the green and how few usable pin placements the green had.  Also, the skyline effect of the green combined with that slope makes going over seem to be death.  (never got back there to really know what happens, and score wise I am glad of that!)

Obviously the slope of the green and the  strong desire to stay below the hole ( no option to bail long) brings the Strath bunker more into play than most  bunkers protecting a tough pin placement on other holes throughout the world, but that still makes me think the slope of the green is more a factor than the actual bunker.

Hopefully you, or someone, can further educate my simple brain on this,  as I  am still not really comprehending what you were saying about the importance of the Strath bunker.

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