[Patrick_Mucci]

I didn't want to draft on a 48 page thread, so I thought I would create a new one to save some time.

What doesn't add up is the following.

Does it stand to reason that a club would select a tract of land in June of 1910 and then wait seven months before they formed a committee to route, design and construct the golf course ?
 
And, the committee was NEVER referred to as design & construction committee, it was ONLY refered to as a construction 
committee.

Is there is evidence a course existed - either 
staked out or on paper - prior to that committee being formed ?

Would the posting of the entire Cuyler letter (12/1910) and the entire Lesley's report (4/1911) reveal that a course existed, either on paper or staked out ?  It would be helpful if both documents could be posted in their entirety.
 
The next thing that doesn't add up is this, why would they choose the odd number of 117 
acres in November 1910 ?

It seems like a rather odd, cumbersome and arbitrary figure. 

And why would they select such an oddly shaped tract (from a much 
larger tract) ?
Why limit yourself ?
Why box yourself in unnecessarily ?
 
After all the entire project is predicated on the golf course, a championship golf course.

These were all very intelligent, worldly, successful andwealthy men calling the shots.

Why would they carve out an oddly shaped tract of land ?
Why would they hand this oddly shaped tract over to a bunch of novices and then ask them to 
design a world class golf course ?

Especially when the project's success rests largely upon crafting a championship golf course?

Only a fool would bet on such a long shot and these men were not fools.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Some possible answers:

117 from HDC because they wanted 120 and knew that they were going to lease or buy 3 from the RR.

They may not have routed, because that would entail walking the property prior to buying it, and they wanted to remain secretive to keep the prices down.


As to their intelligence, well, they WERE novice gca's.  They and even CBM really didn't have much of a clue as to how to route a golf course, because gca was in its infancy in America in this time frame.

I have postulated that many interested members did some "cornflakes routings" probalby including Wilson and Francis, and when the time came to formally create a committee, they picked the ones who showed the most interest during hte land acquisition phase.

As to the question of how did they buy without routing, I submit the most logical evidence that they didn't do much of it - 3 holes crossed Ardmore Avenue and had to be rebuilt by buying more land, all within a few years of opening.  It seems that not all of the problems were worked out in advance!

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

There is no record at Merion during 1910 or 1911 of anyone calling then the Construction Committee.

I know its difficult to accept that your hero didn't design the course but sad to say its the reality.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

Also, please recall that the plan was predicated on a housing development first, and a championship golf course second.  Lloyd was sympathetic to MCC, but he wasn't going to roll over and give them all the best land.  One evidence of that is paying full price for any acre over the 117, presumably to reap the same development profit as if he sold the land outright to a home buyer or home builder.

In the end, it seems that the totality of the evidence placed routing in 1911, cornflakes routings aside.  DM got hung up on one phrase of Francis - the triangle - while igoring others (quarrymen blasting soon after)  Others, myself included, got on his side a bit when it came out that MCC had to purchase 3 more acres, which was similar to the triangle parcel.  But, absent any evidence, it seems that they simply fitted the road to the golf course and it came out 3 more acres, which they reluctantly (or happily) paid to get the golf course they wanted, rather than swapping any particular 3 acres.

It all makes sense if you can put your self in their frame of mind, rather than putting them in our modern frames of mind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

There is no record at Merion during 1910 or 1911 of anyone calling then the Construction Committee.

Mike,

What you mean is that a record from 1910 or 1911 has yet to be produced that calls the commiittee a construction committee, but, we do know that subsequent to 1910-1911 the committee WAS called a construction committee.

There's also NO record from 1910 or 1911 that Wilson routed the golf course and designed the holes.
[/size][/b]

I know its difficult to accept that your hero didn't design the course but sad to say its the reality.

Mike, you have a habit of constantly misrepresenting my position.
I never stated that CBM designed Merion, although it may be a possibility.
It's possible that others designed Merion between June 1910 and 1911.
It's also possible that Wilson had nothing to do with the routing and you find it difficult to accept that your hero didn't design the golf course, but, sad to day, it's the reality.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Some possible answers:

Jeff,

Possible in the context of really, really, really stretching for an explanation.

117 from HDC because they wanted 120 and knew that they were going to lease or buy 3 from the RR.

Jeff, you and others seem to seperate the size/area of the land from the configuration of the land, and the two are inextricably connected.

It's not just that the property was 117 acres, but that it had an awkward configuration, was bisected by roads, etc, etc.
Why on earth select the most cumbersome, undesirable land when land without these impediments and constraints was available, UNLESS someone came up with a good/great routing for that land.

They may not have routed, because that would entail walking the property prior to buying it, and they wanted to remain secretive to keep the prices down.

Jeff, it was 1910 and it was farmland, there weren't security cameras providing coverage 24/7.
That's a very weak argument

As to their intelligence, well, they WERE novice gca's. 
Micro GCA is not a substantive factor in the acquisition of the land.
These were men familiar with real estate and business, and, they were men who knew how to get their way in the world.
They weren't the type to beg for crumbs, they wanted the prime cut and they knew how to get it.

They and even CBM really didn't have much of a clue as to how to route a golf course, because gca was in its infancy in America in this time frame.

America may have been in its GCA infancy, but CBM certainly wasn't, with about 40 years of study and experience with GCA.

I have postulated that many interested members did some "cornflakes routings" probalby including Wilson and Francis, and when the time came to formally create a committee, they picked the ones who showed the most interest during hte land acquisition phase.

Jeff, I go back to the need to package the component pieces, the size/area and the configuration.

The configuration of the land is abominable and the size is limited.
You wouldn't select that particular piece as your ideal site UNLESS you already had a preliminary routing for the plot

As to the question of how did they buy without routing, I submit the most logical evidence that they didn't do much of it - 3 holes crossed Ardmore Avenue and had to be rebuilt by buying more land, all within a few years of opening.  It seems that not all of the problems were worked out in advance!

Think about what you just typed.
So, these smart guys just blindly bought a weird plot of land, with many impediments, just hoping that a golf course could fit on it, a golf course that without the crossovers doesn't work.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

I have been green typed!

I have also given this a lot of thought over the last four years, having been (for some God only knows reason) posting on these threads.  I have at times flip flopped like a politician on these threads, as new info comes to light and is considered.  I have NOT been truly argumentative with anyone, since I don't really care if it comes out that it was routed in 1910 or 1911.  As such, I find your green type answers to my postulations the more far fetched of our two positions.  Just MHO. It appears that you are trying to force their thought process into more modern thought processes.

The secrecy argument is NOT a weak one. It's mentioned in the MCC minutes (according to TePaul) and there were many people living out there at the time on their own farms who would notice people walking in the cornrows. No need for high tech cameras since the MCC boys wouldn't have had Desert Storm type night vision goggles that allowed them to route the course by walking the land at night under the cover of darkness.  Think about what YOU wrote.

As to the configuration and size question, yes I agree. But, they had some idea of what it might look like from Barker, and could have figured with more land, it could only look better, no?  And, a letter (or if you prefer, even if not proven, possibly a prelim routing by CBM) to guide their purchase. Either way, if he said it would work that might very well have been enough to convince the amateur sportsmen from MCC that it would work.

And, coming from a sub 100 acre parcel, its not hard to imagine that they thought that the parcel was luxiouriously uncrowded.  They did look at a couple of parcels, and probably fournd this one most desireable for its location along the RR, the cost saving feature of an existing structure for clubhouse, the ability to work with Lloyd to configure the property to their needs, the fact that members wanted a place where their homes could be next to the club, and its gently rolling topo and natural features, which were generally praised by CBM as great for golf. 

There are a LOT of reasons that make a parcel desireable.  It has been written in a few books that many features supercede actual natural golf features in selecting a parcel.  By 1910 standards (not 2010) the parcel had it all in the eyes of the MCC members.  History records that, because they selected and developed the parcel!

[Niall C]

Pat,

Some possible answers:

Jeff,

Possible in the context of really, really, really stretching for an explanation.

117 from HDC because they wanted 120 and knew that they were going to lease or buy 3 from the RR.

Jeff, you and others seem to seperate the size/area of the land from the configuration of the land, and the two are inextricably connected.

It's not just that the property was 117 acres, but that it had an awkward configuration, was bisected by roads, etc, etc.
Why on earth select the most cumbersome, undesirable land when land without these impediments and constraints was available, UNLESS someone came up with a good/great routing for that land.

They may not have routed, because that would entail walking the property prior to buying it, and they wanted to remain secretive to keep the prices down.

Jeff, it was 1910 and it was farmland, there weren't security cameras providing coverage 24/7.
That's a very weak argument

As to their intelligence, well, they WERE novice gca's. 
Micro GCA is not a substantive factor in the acquisition of the land.
These were men familiar with real estate and business, and, they were men who knew how to get their way in the world.
They weren't the type to beg for crumbs, they wanted the prime cut and they knew how to get it.

They and even CBM really didn't have much of a clue as to how to route a golf course, because gca was in its infancy in America in this time frame.

America may have been in its GCA infancy, but CBM certainly wasn't, with about 40 years of study and experience with GCA.

I have postulated that many interested members did some "cornflakes routings" probalby including Wilson and Francis, and when the time came to formally create a committee, they picked the ones who showed the most interest during hte land acquisition phase.

Jeff, I go back to the need to package the component pieces, the size/area and the configuration.

The configuration of the land is abominable and the size is limited.
You wouldn't select that particular piece as your ideal site UNLESS you already had a preliminary routing for the plot

As to the question of how did they buy without routing, I submit the most logical evidence that they didn't do much of it - 3 holes crossed Ardmore Avenue and had to be rebuilt by buying more land, all within a few years of opening.  It seems that not all of the problems were worked out in advance!

Think about what you just typed.
So, these smart guys just blindly bought a weird plot of land, with many impediments, just hoping that a golf course could fit on it, a golf course that without the crossovers doesn't work.

Jeff

I was going to respond to Patrick's response to your earlier post but I see you've beaten me to it. I agree with everything you say.

The only thing I would add is that back in the early, certainly in the UK, it was quite common if not the norm to secure the land first prior to routing.

Niall

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

With over 400 acres at his disposal, do you see CBMs out and back routing at NGLA as some stroke of sophisticated routing genius?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

What doesn't add up here is that there is ZERO evidence of any CBM design work at Merion.

Your questions are simply asking folks here to prove that UFOs and Sasquatch don't exist! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

I do think we need to look at the entirety of the evidence, not just speculation as to what they might have done.  Right now, I side with the Philly boys, but have said more stuff would need to come to light to make the other Merion threads "definitive" as to the solution.

In that light, I agree with your calls to see the entire Chulyers and Leslie letters posted here when TePaul comes back from Hawaii.  I doubt they will shed much more light on the subject, but there is a chance they could.

To all,

Is there really a need for another Merion thread covering old ground and speculation?  And, what is the over/under on the number of posts on this one?

I peg it at over 934 posts.  Just saying.......

[Charlie Goerges]

And, what is the over/under on the number of posts on this one?

I peg it at over 934 posts.  Just saying.......

I say under. Because our overlords have already shown their displeasure with our earthling verbosity via the zapping of a half-day's posts.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

With over 400 acres at his disposal, do you see CBMs out and back routing at NGLA as some stroke of sophisticated routing genius?

Mike, if you were intimately familiar with the land, you would have known that the answer to your question is, "yes".

[Patrick_Mucci]

As to the configuration and size question, yes I agree.

But, they had some idea of what it might look like from Barker, and could have figured with more land, it could only look better, no?  And, a letter (or if you prefer, even if not proven, possibly a prelim routing by CBM) to guide their purchase.

Jeff,

Then you agree with the premise that a routing, either staked or on paper existed prior to the purchase.

If you believe that, as you've stated you do, then the land was bought to accomodate the routing.

Your premise would also diminish Wilson's role in routing the golf course.

Either way, if he said it would work that might very well have been enough to convince the amateur sportsmen from MCC that it would work.

And, coming from a sub 100 acre parcel, its not hard to imagine that they thought that the parcel was luxiouriously uncrowded.  They did look at a couple of parcels, and probably fournd this one most desireable for its location along the RR, the cost saving feature of an existing structure for clubhouse, the ability to work with Lloyd to configure the property to their needs, the fact that members wanted a place where their homes could be next to the club, and its gently rolling topo and natural features, which were generally praised by CBM as great for golf. 


Jeff, even today, the configuration of the land is awkward, and without the dual crossovers in the routing, I doubt the same quality course could have been produced.  With all the land at their disposal, why chose this unusual configuration with its inherent impediments ?

There are a LOT of reasons that make a parcel desireable. 

Could you name five of them ?

It has been written in a few books that many features supercede actual natural golf features in selecting a parcel. 

I'm afraid I don't know what you're refering to.
Could you clarify the above, citing the books as well ?
Thanks

By 1910 standards (not 2010) the parcel had it all in the eyes of the MCC members.

The members had NOTHING to do with anything.
They merely read the letters and status reports from the Board  

History records that, because they selected and developed the parcel!

The members didn't do a thing, the Board was the driving force.

The production of the Cuyler letter and Lesley report might clarify a good deal of our discussion.

[John Mayhugh]

Patrick,

With over 400 acres at his disposal, do you see CBMs out and back routing at NGLA as some stroke of sophisticated routing genius?

I know you posed this question to Patrick, but I have to ask - do you see the NGLA routing as anything LESS than genius??

[Tony_Muldoon]

oops wrong button.

[Tony_Muldoon]

God help me posting on a Merion Thread.

Pat your question struck a chord with me as there was another unanswered question on an earlier thread.  It seemed like the other side of the coin you just tossed up (to mangle a phrase as it were.)

As I remember it the question was.

“If CBM was involved with the design of the course why would Merion choose to minimise this part of its history, given his eminence in those days?”


Well the only explanation that makes ‘sense’ to me is

Supposing CBM did do more than vist and  give his time to educate the committee memers, and he contirbuted to a routing.

However once the committee start work in the field they quickly realised that either a) they couldn’t figure out how he would have applied his templates and they didn’t want to  or couldn’t go back to him or b) they came to the conclusion that the task was more difficult to achieve than initial thoughts (including his) had supposed or c) his ideas were just no good in this instance.  Feeling thus, they realise they’ve been painted into a corner and if they are to make their new course into a silk purse, Wilson would have to go overseas to study the templates in depth. Even having done this he would have to work tirelessly (and presumably expensively) to achieve this aim.  In such a situation the members might choose to praise Wilson and in order to save embarrassment, drop reference to CBM’s ‘plans’.

This theory allow all parties in the Merion Wars to conclude

a) CBM was more involved than recieved wisdom on Merion will admit
b) Wilson was the genius behind Merions’s greatness.

I have not a drop of evidence to support this theory but so what, neither have 99% of the posts made on the other threads. It fits but just like all the other theories it needs more facts to back it up before it should be given any creedence.

Can I praise Bryan for just seeking to understand what the legal documents might show and not jumping to any conclusion or  introducing facts in a way that supports a pre concieved notion.

I’m not holding my breath waiting for TEP to produce any documents.

This ends my participation in these threads.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony,

In most cases, it's the routing, the Macro architecture that establishes whether a course will be great or not.

If Barker, CBM or someone else or a combination off them provided the routing that led to the purchase of a unusually configured plot of land, they, not the people who crafted the features of the individual holes, are the geniuses.

Although, I think the individual or individuals who came up with the dual crossovers deserve significant credit for producing a wonderful golf course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

I said if YOU prefer. I don't agree that there was a detailed routing. I merely agreed that they had seen the work of Barker and it served a purpose in determining that they needed more land.

I DID name five features, if you would read before posting a clearly argumentative only response:

1 - Location along the RR,
2 - The cost saving feature of an existing structure for clubhouse
3 - The ability to work with Lloyd to configure the property to their needs,
4 - The fact that members wanted a place where their homes could be next to the club, and
5 -  Its gently rolling topo and natural features, which were generally praised by CBM as great for golf. 

Okay, so only 4 were non-golf. I actually wrote that in 1981 for the NGF book "Planning and Building the Golf Course" but recall that it wasn't original with me. I sincerely don't recall where I read that but I could find it.

We can also pick nits about just how closely the members were following the process. I am sure it varied and was referring to those who were interested in such things.

Again, I agree we could stand to see those letters and reports in full, but frankly, your post contains mostly speculation based on YOUR ideas.  At the end of the Merion thread started by Mike, most of the participants were dealing in relating to known facts, not just adding things in that THEY believe, albeit, we are all interpreting to a degree.

And, not to put words in your mouth as you put them in mine, but you acknowledge that in MOST cases, routing establishes greatness.  Either Merion has a great routing (modified after opening as we all know) or its one of the exceptions that proves the rule.

You know, I don't really think the plot of land is all that unusual.  One leg is a perfect series of rectangles, and arrived at by purchasing the Dallas Estate after presumably seeing what a few golf holes in that area might look like from the Barker routing.  The other side of the leg is regular on one side (creek side) and unusually configured on the other, but as we know from historical record, ONLY because they had an agreement to do it that way to max out land use for both golf and developer.

Deals come together in a lot of different ways.  Just because you presume it would be better to do it some other way, doesn't mean it had to happen that way.  Please stop the arguing with nothing but argumenetative arguments. (and yes, I meant that to be repetitively repetitive.)

[Mike_Cirba]

There is no evidence that the Barker routing he did for Connell ever made it to Merion.   I produced all of the documents associated with the submission to the Board, including Barker's copied letter, but there is not even reference to a possible attached routing.

Also, it's clear the CB Macdonald single-page letter in the same submission does not include a routing;  in fact, it includes a rote, generic, hypothetical yardages for a 6000 yard course, which makes you wonder why he'd type all that out and send it if he in fact did a routing, which he most assuredly did not.

This thread is the silliest in the history of GCA, I hate to say it.

Prove to me that Sasquatch doesn't exist.   Sasquatch has to be a genius to elude our sighting him all of these years.   

That's about the volume of evidenciary discussion taking place.

[Bill_McBride]

Is it possible this is a "gotcha" from Mr. Mucci?

[paul cowley]

I didn't want to draft on a 48 page thread, so I thought I would create a new one to save some time.

What doesn't add up is the following.

Does it stand to reason that a club would select a tract of land in June of 1910 and then wait seven months before they formed a committee to route, design and construct the golf course ?
 
And, the committee was NEVER referred to as design & construction committee, it was ONLY refered to as a construction 
committee.

Is there is evidence a course existed - either 
staked out or on paper - prior to that committee being formed ?

Would the posting of the entire Cuyler letter (12/1910) and the entire Lesley's report (4/1911) reveal that a course existed, either on paper or staked out ?  It would be helpful if both documents could be posted in their entirety.
 
The next thing that doesn't add up is this, why would they choose the odd number of 117 
acres in November 1910 ?

It seems like a rather odd, cumbersome and arbitrary figure. 

And why would they select such an oddly shaped tract (from a much 
larger tract) ?
Why limit yourself ?
Why box yourself in unnecessarily ?
 
After all the entire project is predicated on the golf course, a championship golf course.

These were all very intelligent, worldly, successful andwealthy men calling the shots.

Why would they carve out an oddly shaped tract of land ?
Why would they hand this oddly shaped tract over to a bunch of novices and then ask them to 
design a world class golf course ?

Especially when the project's success rests largely upon crafting a championship golf course?

Only a fool would bet on such a long shot and these men were not fools.

Patrick.....this happens all the time as part of the process.....its only in hindsite that it creates any interrest.....as this entire thread suggests.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

You and others would have us believe that Merion secured the land in June of 1910 and NEVER began the routing process until seven (7) months later in early 1911.

Who else believes that  ?

Why would Merion, or any club, secure the land and not begin the routing process, immediately  ?
Why would they allow the design process to remain stagnant for seven (7) months ?

Does anyone believe that's what happened ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

You and others would have us believe that Merion secured the land in June of 1910 and NEVER began the routing process until seven (7) months later in early 1911.

Who else believes that  ?

Why would Merion, or any club, secure the land and not begin the routing process, immediately  ?
Why would they allow the design process to remain stagnant for seven (7) months ?

Does anyone believe that's what happened ?

Patrick,

Merion didn't secure the land until December 19th, 1910, when Lloyd took title to the 161 acres in question.

Hell...they didn't even send out the prospectus flyer to membership until November 15, 1910.

All things considered, beginning the process of routing shortly after and getting construction started by April 1911 is pretty friggin quick!  

After all, it took Macdonald somewhere between 5 and 11 months to do the same things after securing the land at NGLA!  

Do you think he was more meticulous than Hugh Wilson or just not as efficient.     

[Adam_Messix]

Patrick--

Can I ask one question......Where's the Eden at Merion?

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