Toughening Pebble

[Evan_Green]

Hi everyone- this is my first post- i just wanted to say how much i love this website- thank you all so much for making it what it is!

I just had a few comments regarding what i consider to the be the 2 weak holes at Pebble, #2 and #15-

I don't understand why #2 isn't made into a Par-4 permanently and not just for the pros. It is a weak hole as a par-5 as compared to almost every other hole on the course. By moving the back tees up about 20 yards it becomes a very mean par-4, fitting of the challenge of such a great course. I know Pebble annually hosts tens of thousands of tourist players, but if youre going to shoot 110, do you really care if it's 38 or 39 over par? At least they should make it a par-4 from the Blue tees and keep it as a par-5 from the white tees. My feeling is- I come to Pebble to play one of the world's greatest courses with some of the world's toughest holes. If I wanted to go beat up a course for my vacation, then I would go to Hawaii and enjoy the 50 yard fairways and drink Mai Tai's at the turn!

Also, every time i play Pebble, I am dissapointed with #15. After the cliffside heroics and the brilliant inland holes #11-#14, #15 just doesnt match up. While it is true that on #15 shots down the right side won't help your score, the left side of the hole is wide open. I would suggest the following to make this short par 4 more interesting: 1) Narrowing the fairway, 2) installing some deep bunkers to the left of the fairway and perhaps bringing in some transplanted trees down the left side to narrow the hole up and make it a little scarier off the tee, 3) I would also suggest making the greenside bunkers more severe. You really should be penalized for missing a green when you have a 9 iron or wedge in your hand. The way the hole is right now, it's just too easy to throw the drive down the left side of the hole and flip a wedge into the green. No great course like Pebble should have an indifferent "birdie" hole like this. Thank goodness #16-18 come along to finish the round- there are few finishes like them.

I would be interested to hear others comments regarding my suggestions.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Good post, Evan

I think you are right about #2.  Shows you how the simple numbering of "par" can change one's perception of a hole.  The course nees a "hard 4" rather than an "easy 5" at that point, given what comes before and after.

In terms of #15, its all about the green, isn't it?   Very hard to birdie, or even par, if you are on the wrong side of the hole (and the hole is in a tough position and the greens are running, of course...).

[Tim Weiman]

Evan Green:

I'm amongst those who have commtented on the "weak" holes at Pebble Beach.

But, I'm not sure who you have in mind with your suggestion on #2.  Are you trying to make things tougher for the pros or the "tourist" player shooting 110?

[Evan_Green]

Tim-

I'm sorry let me be a little more specific regarding what I meant- The real goal behind my suggestion is to make the hole tougher for the low handicapper. Perhaps the best solution is to have the blue and white tees right next to each other on the hole and have it as a par-4 from the blue tees to challenge the low handicappers and keep it as a par 5 from the white tees to make the tourist players feel better about their score on that hole.

[Dan King]

You can make Pebble Beach the toughest course in the world by not changing a thing and calling it a par 18. The course didn't change, but people who are obsessed with meaningless numbers like par will magically think it is tougher.

We think that we shall never see
A tougher course than Pine Valley
Trees and traps wherever we go
And clumps of earth flying through the air
This course was made for you and me,
But only God can make a THREE.
 --Jack McLean and Charlie Yates (members of the British and American Walker Cup teams, after the 1936 matches)

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Greens fees are tough enough.

Welcome to the fray Evan.

  

[Paul Richards]

I've always thought if you replaced the first 6 holes at Pebble
with the first 6 at Spyglass, you'd have the best course on
earth.

Now, maybe if the green fees go to $1000, they can pull this
off ....

[A_Clay_Man]

I have to disagree, surprise!

Both holes have underated value, most probably because of thier placement in the round and the local knowledge needed for scoring. Both holes have OB on both sides and both greens are as challenging as the rest and therefore need little added toughening.

As Dan says maybe it's the Pencil talking but my threes on #2 have and still feel like eagles. And as far as making multiple birdies on 15,  it just isn't that prevalent either amongst the pros or us hacks.
Now if you personally feel good playing those holes and do well on them, why would you want to change'em?

In your premise you elude to the "toughness" at Pebble and you seem to emulate this perception. I'll argue that it is holes like 2 and 15 which get you to and from the visually awesome (tough) holes, and like sorbet, clean the pallet for the next course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Evan,

Have you played # 2 from the back, back tee, the one you have to walk back a good distance toward the first tee upon leaving the first green ?

What's weak about that hole for amateurs ?

[Bob_Huntley]

Evan:

Play No.2 from waaay back and you will need a good whack to reach the fairway. Also, a tree that was close to the barranca on the left side has gone. The green is not an easy read.

Some years ago, El Nino storms damaged the foliage in the small ravine in front of the 15th tee, one basically had a semi-blind shot over the them to a generous fairway. As Adam Clayman mentioned, there is OB on both sides of the short grass and the green complex makes you think you have a birdie in hand only to frustrate you with some of the severest breaks on the course.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I like Bob's comment on 2. Many 15 to 30 handicappers have tyrouble reaching the fairway on 2. I like it as a long 4 to, but from the back tee it is just fine. the tee on 15 sets you up right and when the tree over the revine was in its glory, a low ball hittier like me had to really draw the ball to be in the center to left half of the fairway. the gree at 15 is brutal, but not as brutal as 13. I can see making the traps tougher on both 2 and 15, but they are good holes as they are.

[Evan_Green]

Shivas-

I really like your suggestions regarding the pot bunkers for #15. It would certainly make it a much stronger hole from tee to green.

With regards to several comments regarding the green- i do hear you it is a challenging green, however i still feel that the hole could be made a "good hole" as opposed to a "filler hole"" if it was strengthened from tee to green as suggested in my first post and/or in Shivas' post.

[ChipOat]

#15 is a lousy hole, IMO.  With OB right, that's where the green should be MORE accessable i.e. closer to the trouble like on the left of #18.

#3 could use some work to toughen up the left side off the tee as the approach from the right after a "safer" drive is tough enough to make it a good start to an excellent strategic hole.

[THuckaby2]

I'd say 15 is a hole that really suffered from losing trees - when those large ones in the ravine fell, the tee shot lost nearly all its interest.  I wouldn't call it a "bad" hole - the green alone makes it good in my book - but it is a shadow of what it once was.

As for 3, wow Chip how much tougher do you want the left?  There's some pretty serious rough and trees along there as is... you could lose a family in that jungle.  From the back tee it makes for a very interesting risk/reward drive, I think....

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

Chip:

The only way to toughen up the left side of No.3 is to post some Mau Mau guerillas there with some AK 47s.

[ChipOat]

BH and TH:

My recollection (4 rounds - the last one 3 years back) is that the long hitter gets a much better angle of attack and that a pretty bad hook is required to really get into trouble off that tee box.

Perhaps not, though.

[THuckaby2]

Your recollection actually isn't all that far off, Chip.  The aggressive play going left does make for the easier 2nd, for sure.  But... it's a pretty long carry from the back tee, and the further left you go, the longer it is... on top of that, the ravine kicks any ball too short or too far left even deeper into the junk, as it slopes that way... so it doesn't take that much of a pull or a hook to get into deep trouble, if you do try to cut the hole short going left... of course the reward is there, so for me, it makes for one damn exciting tee shot!

I just wouldn't make it any harder - my feeling is indeed that it's tough enough as it is - assuming people play the proper tee (ie long hitters play the back tee).  A big hitter can indeed bomb it over all the trouble from the whites.  I saw one of the Nicklaus sons - the non-pro golfer, football player one - darn his name escapes me - anyway I saw him nearly drive the green from the whites in the AT&T a few years ago.

TH

[Dan Grossman]

Just out of curiousity, why does Pebble need to have every hole be really hard?  

I have only played it once and I played the blue plates and it was hard enough.  It was nice on #2 and #15 to have a repreive from having to hit a 4 or 5 iron into a really small green.  I needed a birdie opportunity to make up for the disasters at #8, #9 and #10.

Which begs the question, do people think that a really good golf course has to have 18 demanding holes?  Many of the architects that I really enjoy (Dye, Doak) seem to build at least one short birdiable par 4 and par 5 on most of their courses.

[THuckaby2]

Well, on today's 15 sans trees in the ravine, there is SOME strategy... isn't the shot from the left better than from the right, given the slope of the green?  And doesn't a drive get a turbo boost if you get it far enough left also?  So while this isn't exactly a brain-teaser, it goes beyond course knowledge... You do have to read the hole to determine this, and that to me connotes at least some strategy.

But I see what you're getting at most definitely, my friend.

And as for every hole being tough, well... I don't think that's what Chip was getting at.  The tee shot is indeed devoid of much interest for a strong player from the white tees, given he can just blast it over all the trouble - thus he wanted to toughen the left side.  My counter was put this player on the right tee, and it's tough enough.  But in any case the hole is never going to be a bruiser, Tiger's triple on it in his record-setting US Open notwithstanding!

TH

[ChipOat]

Tom Huckaby:

I think Steve Nicklaus is who you mean.

I was talking about toughening up the left side of #3.  In an earlier post, I had pooh-poohed #15 as being boring and lacking strategic merit.

Cheers

[THuckaby2]

Chip - thanks!  Memory is indeed a strange thing.  I have no idea why I couldn't remember the name "Steve".  It was indeed he who nearly drove the green.

And I believe I summed up your take on 3 correctly, didn't I?  As for 15, well... to me it still has SOME interest, given the green.  But I can certainly see not making much out of it.

TH

[Dan King]

Go play Spyglass.

There are numerous reasons to change a golf course, but changing Pebble to make it tougher bugs the hell out of me. If you don't find Pebble sufficiently challenging go play elsewhere, leave Pebble to those that appreciate a golf course as something other than a horrow show.

It's all part of a trend for a golf course to be a collection of 18 holes rather than 18 holes making up a golf course. No. 15 works fine as it gets you from No. 14 to No. 16. Not every hole needs to knock your socks off.

I've said it before: it's the difference between rock n' roll and symphony.  Rock is fine in its place, but it would be a huge mistake to turn all the great classic music into rock songs. There are plenty of rock n' roll golf courses for y'all starved for challenges -- leave the symphonies alone.

Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Some call me the gangster of love
Some people call me Maurice
'Cause I speak of the pompitous of love

People talk about me, baby
Say I'm doin' you wrong, doin' you wrong
Well, don't you worry baby, don't worry
'Cause I'm right here, right here, right here, right here at home

'Cause I'm a picker, I'm a grinner
I'm a lover and I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun
I'm a joker, I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I sure don't want to hurt no one
 --Miller/Ertegun/Curtis

[Evan_Green]

Following up on Shivas' comments:

If the intention is to leave things as is- then the new 5th hole at Pebble would never have been built- and if played from the back tees (although everytime I have ever played there the tee is roped off to save it for the people more important that the $375 per round peons) or even the middle tees is MUCH harder than the original 5th hole. The old 5th was another relatively weak hole at Pebble and thankfully they were able to better it and turn it into one of the best and toughest par 3 holes I have seen. This change was largely responsible for Pebble passing Augusta for the #3 spot on Golf Mag top 100 and assuming the #1 spot on Golf Digest.

Change is good as long as it improves the course- it did on the 5th and if the 15th were made more interesting and more difficult, it would improve the course even further.

[THuckaby2]

Evan:  AHA!  This post sheds light on why you find Boulder Ridge to be reasonable price-wise.  We all have our thresholds indeed.  My apologies for any "tone" there - I truly meant nothing by this.

As for Pebble, I kinda dig shivas' suggestions for 15, but I get queasy making changes on classic courses like this... #5 was one thing - most would agree that Morse would have routed #5 where it is now had he been able to reaquire that land.  Thus to me that's just getting the course back to its intentions, albeit nearly 80 years later... Making changes that extensive to 15 makes me uneasy... even if they would be an improvement...  Tough question indeed.

TH

[Peter Galea]

Evan, I don't think old #5 was a weak hole. With the severe uphill shot, bunker and OB right, hazard left and a vicious green it was anything but weak. It may not have been an ideal hole (neither is the new one) but it was no sleeper.
The new #5 was not built to toughen PBGL, but to make room for real estate.