[Matt_Ward]

George:

Check out what Garland said ... he's the dude who inserted the essence of "worm burners" into the mixture of soundness for top quality courses. Because in his mind, worm burners can't be accomodated by BM then ipso facto Black Mesa is deficient as a course.

George, you're all wet on BM and frankly it gets tiresome to deal with the same arguments I've heard time after time after. I've heard the forced carry argument from others and the lack of recovery elements you have mentioned - guess what ? They are groundless and just the wailing sound of incessant whines. Others have backed me up on this -- when you say to read people -- do yourself a huge favor and read what Andy posted on this thread just recently.

One last thing -- start looking at what others have lobbed my way and attribute to them where it's coming from.

Black Mesa is a great golf course to me given the range of courses I have played. You see it differently for whatever reasons you have.

End of story ...

[Anthony Butler]

Lost amongst all the talk about whether you can play this course with your putter...

Is it just me or does it seem like there's hardly any visible fairway from most tees? Once you get into the landing areas, you see some decent width, but there's definitely a level of visual intimidation for first timers. (Even those of us who play their golf through the air:–)

Matt, perhaps a topic you'd prefer to address?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
I'm afraid Black Mesa (and about half the top 100) doesn't do a good job of permitting worm-burners. I have to admit that really doesn't bother me, even though I hit one occasionally.

Golfers that can't get the ball airborne regularly should probably avoid Black Mesa, along with a number of other places. I can recommend a few courses in Santa Fe/Albuquerque that they would enjoy.

Andy, correct me if I am wrong, but "Black Mesa doesn't do a good job of permitting worm-burners" sounds like you agree with me.
Since I wrote that the carries can make it less fun for high handicappers, I suppose your "should probably avoid Black Mesa" also agrees with me.

This of course makes me wonder how it is that Matt holds you out as his supporter

...
George, you're all wet on BM and frankly it gets tiresome to deal with the same arguments I've heard time after time after. I've heard the forced carry argument from others and the lack of recovery elements you have mentioned - guess what ? They are groundless and just the wailing sound of incessant whines. Others have backed me up on this -- when you say to read people -- do yourself a huge favor and read what Andy posted on this thread just recently. ...

Perhaps you would like to let us all know for sure whether you are a Matt Ward supporter or not.

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
The thing I don't understand with this thread is why anyone would think Black Mesa was designed with playability for high handicappers in mind. They're accommodated when possible, but it doesn't appear to have been a high priority.  George made the comment that Bethpage, Pine Valley, and likely Oakmont were never designed with this in mind either. I think Black Mesa is comfortably one of the top 100, and most likely one of the top 50, courses in the USA regardless of the playability component. It makes up for it in many other ways. But yes--golfers who struggle to get the ball in the air would likely have more fun elsewhere.

I don't really feel Matt has tried to make the point that Black Mesa is playable for the high handicapper so much as he has tried to point out that its a great golf course anyway--if that's correct then I agree with him. If you've read some of our other discussions you'll note that doesn't always happen 

Anthony,
Have you played the course? I think the photos on this thread might exaggerate the situation a bit as to the "fairway" component, but I think your point is also very valid. Most of the fairways are pretty reasonable. That said, there is definitely a visual intimidation component to the golf course. The 16th is very narrow, the 1st and 5th are generally blind shots over hillsides (to WIDE fairways though), and holes like the 3rd and 10th require some thought and execution to be played properly.

[Adam Clayman]

IMO. What makes Black Mesa is the fun factor. The openess is much prefered to the claustrophobic tree lined courses. The lack of fairway width is a function of the localized environs of the high desert. Baxter and team did a fine job of increasing the relative width by angling many of the fairways orientation. While I respect George's opinion I feel the positives way out weigh this small crit. Few courses have the ability to satisfy all handicaps considering the rugged terrain I feel BM satisfies a majority of the golfers who are avid and into golf for thrills, and shot demands. It also allows the creative to flex that side of their brain without a relentless pounding of their ego.

[Garland Bayley]

Andy,

A course can be considered great without being accommodating. However, I would point out that the currently GD #1 is accommodating. I am currently reading Augusta by Eubanks, which details how much AM and BJ considered enjoyment to be one of the prerequisites for a great course. It is a game after all. Anthony refers to AM's play with a putter criteria above. Therefore the nature of BM detracts (as you agree) from the fun for a high handicapper. One particular feature that detracts from that fun is the junk that has be be carried even when playing from appropriate tees. Matt would deny the extent that such junk exists (only on three holes he suggested), and that is where I raised my objection.

Of course another way that BM is less fun is the narrowness of its fairways. Of course many would consider them of sufficient width, but when measured against another desert course like Rustic Canyon, they are quite narrow.

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
I totally disagree regarding Rustic Canyon. With the stupid Environmentally Sensitive Areas at Rustic Canyon on both sides of some fairways I lost more balls at Rustic Canyon in one round than I have in my last five at Black Mesa COMBINED. Rustic is a very good golf course, but those ESA's bother me significantly more than the desert at Black Mesa because one can go into the desert and play the ball with surprising frequency.  If we're talking about wayward driving, Rustic may have wider fairways, but the ESA's mean the stuff on both sides of the fairways = lost balls.  This is unfortunate, because one could likely recover from the ESA's at Rustic Canyon if they were in play.

Don't kid yourself about Augusta--a high handicap (by your definition someone who hits worm-burners amongst other things) is going to have a long day there as well. They may not lose as many balls (although they might given the water on the back nine), but I find it hard to believe they would score any better.

[George Pazin]

I don't really feel Matt has tried to make the point that Black Mesa is playable for the high handicapper so much as he has tried to point out that its a great golf course anyway--if that's correct then I agree with him.

You are very wrong on this point.

The entire crux of the argument going on for 5 years now between Matt and me (and many others) is our disagreement over the playability of BM specifically for HH golfers. I have stated repeatedly that I think BM is a wonderful course, in many ways the best desert/canyon type course I've played, that it deserves all of its high praise, etc, etc, but Matt continues to lie and mislead others about my position, which is simply that BM is not an especially accommodating course specifically as it relates to HH golfers (and I'm again referring to the types of golfer Patrick Kiser cites, not beginners who hit worm burners quite often).

Several other very experienced and quite competent golfer/posters who attended the GCA outing in the fall of 04 that I spoke to agreed with me, some even went further than I did.  Many others disagreed, and some even provided compelling arguments. That's what makes this a discussion site, disagreement and discussion.

Unfortunately, Matt does not think this is a discussion site, he believes it is a site where he gets to say whatever he wants and everyone must accept it as THE GOSPEL. Matt does this because he cannot stand anyone having a different opinion than his own. Matt prefers to belittle anyone who disagrees with him, labeling them whiners and untruthful incompetents, which would seem to be one of the most clear cut examples of projection I have seen.

Is BM great? I don't know, I willingly admit I haven't played enough courses to say, and I also willingly admit it is one of the better courses I've played. I just happen to believe it isn't well suited for HH golfers, who tend to be inconsistently wild, through the green. If a HHer doesn't mind losing balls and taking drops, great, he'll have a tremendous experience. There are some golfers who don't like determining drop zones several times in a round - for those golfers, I would advise other venues, or even as Matt suggests, waiting until they get a little better.

Somehow in Matt's mind, that means I am dishonest and ignorant and cannot appreciate the greatness of Black Mesa.

[Andy Troeger]

Few courses have the ability to satisfy all handicaps considering the rugged terrain I feel BM satisfies a majority of the golfers who are avid and into golf for thrills, and shot demands.

Adam,
I think this is well stated.

George,
I am aware of the past discussions, but in just reading Matt's posts on this thread that was my take. Personally I think Black Mesa is a lot more reasonable to play for a high handicapper than a LOT of other places, but its far from easy.

[Matt_Ward]

For all of those folks who insists upon the "worm burner" standard for golf courses -- here's a bit of advice ... avoid Black Mesa. Stick to places where such play is always accomodated. You won't be missed and BM will gain from the speed of play. Andy great points on RC and how it plays versus that of Black Mesa.

For those who enjoy real golf where strategic thinking is front and center at all times -- and if the players select the appropriate tee boxes -- Black Mesa is all that one can hope for in public golf -- especially for a layout that charges less than $100 to play.

The silly contention made by those who have played the course once or twice is that the design of BM accentuates lost balls and prevents meaningful recovery options. In neither case is that true. Andy has correctly mentioned that a few times and he and I have had our disagreements but his eye is more sharper than others who believe they know the course. Ditto the idea that the course has draconian forced carries which make reaching the fairway an impossibility. Again, more of the same drivel and propaganda that's not supported by the facts. I'm sorry if a 100-yard carry for a male player under the age of 60 is deemed an impossible thing to manage.

The other inane thought is that all fairways at BM are narrow -- another big time error. No doubt some of the fairways are narrower than others -- but there are also plenty of fairways where widths can reach 50 yards across. My God, should a course have fairways the width of Kansas because certain people can't hit the ball for squat?

I actually agree with Clayman -- my God, that is something for me to ponder about. All kidding aside, Adam makes a solid point in saying the folllowing, "Baxter and team did a fine job of increasing the relative width by angling many of the fairways orientation." I've said this countless times about Black Mesa and few really get it save for the likes of Andy and Adam.

Baxter Spann built in plenty of mind games when playing Black Mesa. There are psyche-out holes and shots in which the player must block out the creeping paralysis that can easily impact one's execution. So much of Black Mesa is meant to really scare the player but when you look back at the shoit(s) you find there were alternate ways to approach the situation.

No doubt there are major challenge holes at BM -- but I will say this - there are few thrills in all of public golf (for courses less than $100) where you get the major high that you get when executing on a high level at BM. One of personal favorites is the 10th -- a glorious par-4 hole that requires shot shaping and utter precision in marrying length and ball movement off the tee -- and with the approach.

Last item -- high handicappers is some sort of ill-defined group -- Black Mesa does provide avenues for different styles. The classic error made by many is the unfairness of the 1st hole. The carry is more mental -- provided you don't play from the tip tees and then bitch and moan when you have a pop-gun tee shot when a higher level play is required.

Anthony Butler:

BM plays wider than it appears on many holes. Adam said it best about the fairways angling in one direction or the other. There's plenty of room and frankly I have played many top tier private layouts in the Northeast where overall fairway widths are very narrow and where the options for different types of play are routinely limiting. I can only hope you can play BM sometime in the future and see if your impressions prior to playing stand up to when you actually do.

[Bill_McBride]

I was there around April 1st when the cold and wind made the round next to impossible.  Still enjoyed myself, but it was ridiculous.

One thing I will say that I found to be a problem...

For the high to even mid handicaper, there are too many forced carries to the fairway.  I played with two 20 or so handicappers ... and it made for a very long round.

I had no such issues, but I do think the course is too difficult for the high handicapper.

Patrick, someone else will have made this comment before I do, but the forced carry issue is easily solved, it's just a matter of playing the appropriate tees.  Black Mesa is a course where, as Clint would say, "A man has got to know his limitations."  Playing well at Black Mesa is all about playing within yourself.  Any time you bite off more than you can chew, you are very liable to be devoured by that course.  Off the fairway is death.

In spite of that it is one of my favorites anywhere.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Thanks for using the Eastwood line -- I've used it here on GCA many times.

Just one small bone to pick with you -- off the fairways of CERTAIN holes at Black Mesa CAN be death but not in every single situation
Recovery is certainly possible and Andy alluded to it because so often desert courses are often negligent in that regard.

[Garland Bayley]

...
For those who enjoy real golf where strategic thinking is front and center at all times -- and if the players select the appropriate tee boxes -- Black Mesa is all that one can hope for in public golf -- especially for a layout that charges less than $100 to play.
...

Not all one can hope for. The Links of ND is less expensive and higher ranked.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
I totally disagree regarding Rustic Canyon. With the stupid Environmentally Sensitive Areas at Rustic Canyon on both sides of some fairways I lost more balls at Rustic Canyon in one round than I have in my last five at Black Mesa COMBINED. ...

We can agree to disagree about Rustic Canyon. I played them back to back and Rustic allowed me to keep the ball in play much easier than Black Mesa.

I used it because it was also desert. Other courses with wide fairways more forgiving to the HH are the Bandon Courses and Chambers Bay.

Have you played ANGC? Width at Chambers Bay would inform me I wouldn't do too bad there. Especially since my positive experience at Tetherow with its over the top greens would inform me I wouldn't struggle too much on the ANGC greens.

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
So is this about your game or the "high handicapper?" Most high handicappers I know probably would struggle on Augusta's greens--I haven't played it. Perhaps that's your strength so crazy greens might not bother you. For others, crazy greens might be a bigger issue than narrow fairways. Black Mesa has fairly crazy greens too obviously--I think that's a plus too even if it doesn't help the high handicapper.

[Garland Bayley]

Andy,

It's about high handicappers like me (and George) who spray it a lot, because we don't get consistent contact on the ball. I will admit that big drivers and tall tees help with the worm bunrner problem.

Also, I think the modern nonsense of multiple tees is stupid and have been thinking of starting a thread titled "5192 is ludicrous!"

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

Thanks for using the Eastwood line -- I've used it here on GCA many times.

Just one small bone to pick with you -- off the fairways of CERTAIN holes at Black Mesa CAN be death but not in every single situation
Recovery is certainly possible and Andy alluded to it because so often desert courses are often negligent in that regard.

In my personal experience - not from looking at photos - being off the fairway at Black Mesa is usually more of a near-death experience than say Talking Stick N or S or We-ko-pa or most Arizona desert courses, mostly due to the rocky terrain that makes up the rough.  I'm not saying that's a deal breaker, just that it makes one even more concerned with staying inside the fairway lines.

[Andy Troeger]

Bill,
Gotta disagree regarding the AZ reference, although if I remember right you've played Black Mesa quite a few times? I've played about 30 courses in Arizona and almost every single one of them to me has more penal desert than Black Mesa. TSN might be the one exception--definitely not Saguaro.

Garland,
Fair enough--I spray the ball a lot too although I usually make good contact and just hit it further in the wrong direction. For me, I've played a lot of courses where that causes more trouble for me than Black Mesa (IMO at least), including all those courses in AZ. Unfortunately we haven't played many of the same courses so getting into listing that isn't going to further the discussion much.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

BM provides plenty of width in most locations and the opportunity to play a recovery shot is also part of that equation. Andy is spot on -- most desert courses because of $$ and the need to have only 90 acres of turfed areas -- often feature the "either or" situation he mentioned previously.

BM is not an "either or" type layout. However, if you have people who can't play worth a lick and routinely spray the ball two fairways over then the time they spend there will be frustrating. It would be equally frustrating at a ton of other courses too. Ditto those who are wont to hit worm burners and the like.

Bill, you would need to provide specific locations at BM where either you hit it or your playing partners hit it that provide for the limited dimension you provide. Let me give you one example -- the 16th at BM is cited as a narrow hole. Yes, it is -- but Baxter provides sufficient width -- short of the choke point which can narrow down to 20 yards or less. Players DON'T have to hit driver but can use something off the tee that reaches the fairway area and then proceed with another club selection that leaves them in position for a 3rd shot. Only those intent on reaching the green in two face the real dilemma with the slightest push or pull shot.

I can provide other examples of this type as well.

[Bill_McBride]

Matt, per your normal argumentative style, you ignored what I said and substituted what you wanted to say.

i didn't say BM isn't wide and that good course management wouldn't get a player around the course safely, I said there are places where you are dead if you miss the fairway. 

Thanks.

Andy, most places I've played in Arizona, when you hit a ball into the desert and find it, you can play back to the fairway.  In a lot of places at Black Mesa, if you aren't on the fairway or short rough, you are in rocks and no recovery is possible.    The hillside left of #18 is a good example.

I'm not saying this is bad, or that you shouldn't be out there, I'm just saying there is not much chance for a recovery.

I have been fortunate enough to have played Black Mesa four times in two trips starting back in 2004, and can't wait to go back.  Last round this 12 handicapper shot 79 with 3 birdies and won a bundle from my hapless pals from Santa Barbara!  (I stayed out of those rocks!)

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

No substitution was done ... Read on ...

Here is a direct quote from you ... "Off the fairway is death."

I answered you specifically -- so please enough "normal argumentative style" dodge ball retort -- BM provides more than sufficient width and the so-called "death" areas you mentioned are so very few in number unless the player has hit a woeful shot of the highest order. You qualified your original remark with your latest step back ... "I said there are places where you are dead if you miss the fairway." Read the first one and see the qiualification with the second. If you think that's argumentative and a substitution of what you said -- then please realize it comes directly from your posted remarks.

In regards to the hillside on #18 -- there are places where you can't go at the green -- that doesn't prevent players from pitching back to the fairway and proceeding from there. Is there the possibility of an unplayable lie for the hole in question -- sure, but that can happen on a number of other courses beyond the likes of Black Mesa.

Black Mesa has more recovery options than many might imagine -- the "either or" death scenario is very limited.

[Andy Troeger]

Bill,
Fair enough--we must have missed in different places in our tours around Black Mesa. I can tell you I've never been left of #18. Right on the other hand...

We may have played different courses in Arizona too! 

[Garland Bayley]

Hey special assistant to the prez! I in my ignorance think the rock pile short left of the 1st green is an unplayable mess. I think the bottom of numerous arroyos to be death. How about that deep gully left of the short par 4 with the rocky hill in the center. Not only is it death, but it would appear to the novice on the course to be the proper line until all balls that land near there run into it. But if you decree these are actually grassed plains and we were on drugs or something, so be it. The prez gave you the authority and we know what you say about Black Mesa is the gospel and we are but weak observers of the game that were probably smokin peyote or something.

[JC Jones]

What is really lost here is the fact that grown, intelligent men are arguing with each other and repeatedly using the term "worm burner" with a straight face.

Fewer things take me back to my childhood days than the term "worm burner."  The shot is so low, it "burns the worms."  That kills me.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

Thanks for using the Eastwood line -- I've used it here on GCA many times.

Just one small bone to pick with you -- off the fairways of CERTAIN holes at Black Mesa CAN be death but not in every single situation
Recovery is certainly possible and Andy alluded to it because so often desert courses are often negligent in that regard.

Matt, after re-reading the above I agree with you.      Not every missed fairway is death, just some.  There are some rocky areas and that was what I was referring to.  There are some areas where you can make a recovery shot.

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