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Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2009, 03:00:27 PM »
If C.B. Macdonald did a routing during his initial visit to Merion, then why did he take the time to type out and send a rote listing for a generic 6000 yard course in his single-page letter to the club?   Why not just send or at least refernce the actual routing???

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2009, 05:30:56 PM »
Melvyn,

With all due respect, if Macdonald learned anything about routing and designing a golf course from Old Tom during the period of 1872-4 he certainly didn't show it at the original Chicago Golf Club layout.

Mike, you would have us beieve that for the 32 year span, between 1874 and 1906 that CBM learned nothing ?  ?  ?

Yet, Wilson, who comes on board the committee in 1911, is an instant, all knowing genius, without the benefit of ever traveling abroad or designing one golf course.

That's amazing.


For you to contend that all CBM's study and all his travels over 32 years didn't increase his understanding, knowledge and thoughts on golf, golf course strategy, golf course architecture and routing is even more amazing

So then, subsequent to 2006, he has a light bulb moment and goes on to produce some of the great courses in history.
 


I truly think he learned much more later from Horace Hutchinson.

What do you base that on ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2009, 05:32:05 PM »
If C.B. Macdonald did a routing during his initial visit to Merion, then why did he take the time to type out and send a rote listing for a generic 6000 yard course in his single-page letter to the club?   Why not just send or at least refernce the actual routing???


Maybe he did and he was trying to "sell" his routing.

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2009, 10:21:16 AM »
If C.B. Macdonald did a routing during his initial visit to Merion, then why did he take the time to type out and send a rote listing for a generic 6000 yard course in his single-page letter to the club?   Why not just send or at least refernce the actual routing???


Maybe he did and he was trying to "sell" his routing.


Patrick -- That's an interesting thougt. One I never thought of as it relates to Merion. However, if we was trying to "sell" the routing and Merion -- apparently -- didn't buy, why would he so generously come back to Ardmore Avenue in April 1911 to review the land and plans with the committee? Could it be because he was reviewing his routing, with only minor tweaks made from the committee to get in on the ground?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #104 on: June 13, 2009, 10:32:50 AM »
Patrick,

Again, that's asinine.

Macdonald was an amateur architect.

I know you're upset that the evidence obviously support anything remotely like a Mac design for Merion, but this latest is a stretch even with your obvious bias.  ;)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2009, 07:43:13 AM »
Mike

I made a simple statement and am surprised with your response # 97 &102.

Clearly, anyone making an observation that is not “Inline with Party Views” on Merion may be targeted.

I am sorry that many of the following posts have disappeared, but that does not change the fact of how Old Tom surveyed his courses.  Nor can it take away the fact that CBM in his early days would have been familiar with the Morris ways in 1872-4. Let us not forget first impressions can be lasting and this was the time of “The Morris Supremacy”. Young Tom just winning The Open for the fourth consecutive time keeping the Championship Belt. No Open in 1871 because Young Tom had won the Belt outright and a new trophy, The Claret Jug did not appear until after The Open of 1872, also Old Tom at TOC being The Custodian of The Green for The R&A , who were becoming the sole power in the land re golf. Those days of history would last in most people’s minds. However, I have not said he routed Merion, but that he would have been aware of how Old Tom undertook his work.

If CBM was not involved with golf until the mid 1890’s would he not have remembered his early days, after all they were great days of golfing history which he had a direct connection with  – well who knows, but he was in contact with Old Tom asking for names for green keeper/professionals/club makers to come to America. Perhaps that might also have reminded him of his early days, but who knows. As for MO, well I would not put my name on any document or sketch unless I had previously checked it out myself. Nevertheless, we are now talking about Professionalism and belief in ones name – but of course this will certainly vary with each individual own approach to the importance of their word and name.

I just made a comment, but will now happily retreat from the Merion (The Never Ending) Story, no, sorry debate.

Melvyn
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 08:53:38 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2009, 10:02:09 AM »
Melvyn,

That's the "drill" with the Philly crowd.

If you don't accept the party line, you're drilled.

I don't accept that drill.

I think there is more to be learned.

Mike Cirba continues to try to stifle intelligent debate on the subject, hoping that these discussions will go away, and that his constant insistance that Wilson exclusively and/or with his committee routed and designed Merion subsequent to 1910,  will be accepted as "The Gospel"

I think the "jury" is still out on this subject and that more research needs to be done.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2009, 11:11:23 AM »

Patrick

You may well have a point there but on the Merion subject I shall be :-X  Otherwise I might wake up with a horse’s head in my bed ;)

Melvyn


Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2009, 11:28:38 AM »
Melvyn/Patrick,

No drill here...merely a question that I think is warranted and reasonable.

If you're going to give Macdonald some type of knowledge in the 1870s gained by osmosis by his proximity to Old Tom as relevant to speculation he designed Merion 30 years later, I would hope you might think a reasonable attempt at bolstering such a speculative belief might be required of you.  ;)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2009, 11:38:30 AM »
Mike

I never said CBM designed Mer…. Mumblemumblelmumblemumblemumble nor did I munblemumblemumblemumblemumble.
But that does not mean mumblemumblemumblemumble munblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumble munblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemunblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumble munblemumblemumblemumblemumble.

I am also not saying that Old Tom had any design involvement in Mer… mumblemumblemumblemumble munblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumblemumble munblemumblemumblemumblemumble

Trust you know & understand my position ;) :-*

Melvyn
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 11:56:41 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2009, 11:41:30 AM »
Melvyn,

Too funny!!

;D

Wise as well!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2009, 01:50:26 PM »
Melvyn/Patrick,

No drill here...merely a question that I think is warranted and reasonable.

If you're going to give Macdonald some type of knowledge in the 1870s gained by osmosis by his proximity to Old Tom as relevant to speculation he designed Merion 30 years later,

Once again you deliberately distort and misrepresent what was said in order to dismiss the possibility that CBM and others may have had a greater role in Merion's routing and design.

Macdonald study and experience that wasn't confined to the 1870's, it extended from the 1870's thru 1910 to 1939. 


I would hope you might think a reasonable attempt at bolstering such a speculative belief might be required of you.  ;)

I don't believe that's speculative in the least, Macdonald had 40 years of experience when he was asked to visit Merion's site on Ardmore Ave.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2009, 01:52:39 PM »
Melvyn,

We know & understand your position, you're a spectator on the sidelines, not a participant.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Merion Misrepresentations: What did Alan Wilson Really Write?
« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2009, 03:40:02 PM »

Patrick

I may be a spectator on the sidelines and not a participant, but I do not see that that diminishes any of my previous comments or opinions (with the exception of my mumbles post).

For all we know I may be spot on with my observations. But whatever the truth may well be born out of GB&I courses.

I am happy to leave it to others with more time on their hands to resolve – who knows, I might be right and may even be saying to one or two on GCA.com  ‘I told you so’ – Ops,  would that piss off a few.

Melvyn

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