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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 10 in progress)
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2009, 12:39:48 PM »
More Joe B. pictures:


















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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 10 in progress)
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2009, 01:10:16 PM »
The 10th hole was quite controversial back in 2002. Many believed that the 251-yard carry required to reach the fairway landing area was unfair to the players. Let me say up front that I was not among them. Still, was it?

After the Open I gathered the stats of every drive hit during the 4 days of competiton. Even on Friday with the terrible wind and rain fatored in, only 6% of ALL DRIVES hit did not travel at least 252 yards, or long enough to find the fairway. Actually the real problem, as it so often is in issues of this sort, was one, not of distance but of accuracy.

In response to this issue the USGA has done 2 things. First, they have moved the landing area back and closer to the tee. Secondly they have moved the tee box back even further, lengthening the hole!

The other day I watched U.S. Open qualifying at Ball Ground in Georgia (Hello Chris Cupit). After the round I spoke with Matt Kuchar about his memories of Bethpage. He specifically mentioned the unfairness of how far a carry it was on the 10th tee to the fairway. His immediate repsonse when I informed him that they had lengthened the hole?

"As well they should!"

Back then some in the media named 10-12 the "Black Mile" and I guess it works for those who like it. The 10th is the first of what may be among the 3 or 4 toughest 3-hole stretches in all of championship golf.

The fairway this time will favor the right side a bit more, though I wish they would have brought it all the way over to the bunkers. Still, it will take to very well-played shots to find the putting surface. In an attempt at fairness the USGA installed a chipping/collection area behind the green that would allow those shots played into the hole by very long-iron or metal wood to have a fair place to end up. Me, I say, "Let them eat rough!" But, then again, I AM a product of Bethpage.

Two hole lcations which will be especially challenging are front right behind the bunker, this probably being the toughest, and far back left which will really bring the chipping/collection area into play. This is one brutal opening hole for the field to enjoy on either Thursday or Friday and yet I believe will be even tougher on those challenging on Sunday.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 10 in progress)
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2009, 01:17:22 PM »
Phil,

Thanks for taking the time to explain the history of all these holes...very good stuff indeed.

I really love the look of that 8th hole and agree that removing the tree would seem to be a shame.

How thick is that native?  Unplayable thick or more the whispy stuff where your ball can be found and advanced a good clip down the fairway?
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Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 10 in progress)
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2009, 01:39:23 PM »
Mike S:

Before Rees got involved the 8th was a single tee box with plenty of width for the boxes to be moved as need be. Then Rees inserted the single elevated tee box for the '02 event -- which added more distance to the hole but in my mind was out of place from a pure design purpose.

I don't like tee stacking -- with one placed behind the next and followed by another. It's something Rees routinely does on many of his courses and for those who are pro-Tillie the Rees touch clearly takes away from the nature of what Tillie had in my mind.

It was not needed to provide a complete seeing perspective for the players. The previous tee concept worked very well.

***

Phil:

If the facility can pay for an additional bunker at #9 and added tee length at that hole -- among other elements to be sure -- which I don't see as a big time plus -- then creating new tee areas for #8 is quite doable. They could have placed a tee box further to the right --beyond the fence area that is used for the horse trails and it would have provided a far different angle and perspective. Or even go further to the left -- which would be immediately behind the 7th green and play the hole from that side.

Phil, for what it's worth -- stop playing the role as defender of the realm and that all who provide a bit of difference of opinion are either ignorant or completely misplaced. I love BB as much as anyone -- however -- there are elements that have happened that make me and others especially concerned. The character of the Black is not about adding more and more length so that all the discussion of the course turns on two items -- length and difficulty.

Phil, the people at the park (I stand corrected) goofed in keeping the fairway widths too narrow. BB is sufficiently strong enough that it doesn't need this heavy-handed crass way in bolstering the integrity of the pure design. Phil you use the retort that the customers like the way the course is presented now -- frankly, the people I talk to about BB are happy they have played it ONCE -- but are not running to go back there and have to handle all the added demands that are beyond what's needed. Re-implementing pre-'02 fairway width would allow different playing angles to return and at the same time likely add to the enjoyment of players and probably add to the overall speed of play when at the Black.

Phil, BB is a marvelous layout and I can only hope that additional tweaks will make it even better. I am thriled to see that the powers-that-be have eliminated the '02 rough cut across the fairway at #6.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 10 in progress)
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2009, 02:20:32 PM »
Matt,

I am attempting to serve as nothing more than a sounding board here and trtying very hard not to insert my feelings and ideas (other than 18 which has been publiuc for quite some time and the green increases on 14 for the same reason). The reason for doing so is because questions have been asked without answers forthcoming. By doing it this way I can provide answers whether the questioner agrees with the reasoning in the answer or not.

For example, I have never stated publicly one way or the other as to whether I agree with the fairway widths kept at U.S. Open widths or not. I have never commented on the fairway bunker additions on 9 & 13; rather on these and other issues I have simply tried to provide that which most haven't been able to get.. information as to why...

As for placing the 8th tee to the right of the present one, this is impossible at this time because it would encroach upon SUNY Farmingdale property. Also, it would be a poor angle with the tree and hill blocking the sight into the hole. A tee to the left of the 7th green would be nice, but again, it would eliminate many design features such as the hillside which was always to be a major factor in how the hole would be played.

Finally, I readily admit that there are countless others who have as great a passion for the Black as I do, though I daresay that those with more can probable be counted on one hand. I just happen to have found myself in a unique position due to my writings and research and several other factors and so have tried to use it to help as many as possible...

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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 11 in progress)
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2009, 03:08:48 PM »
Hole 11 – 435 yards par 4:


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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 11 in progress)
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2009, 03:09:15 PM »
From Joe B.:




















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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 11 in progress)
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2009, 03:19:39 PM »
Phil:

You can state your feelings on #18 and any other topic raised.

Just try to remember that when you downplay each idea you undercut your role as xcritic and become more defender of the realm.

Since you raised the subject about personal feelings -- what prevents you from stating them?

Are there other considerations involved?

Phil, I threw out some thoughts on #8 because stacking tee boxes is just some clearly a Rees idea -- and far from what Tillie advocates from the words of his that I have read. Going to the right or left of the present 8th tee is clearly possible with the elements you mentioned but it would provide a wider playing angle into the green and make for something different than your basic let's play from the same tee box. I am personally happy to see the USGA has decided to play the hole at a shorter length for at least two of the rounds. Be curious to know if the final round will have the shorter length used. One last thing -- if a tee box were placed right onto the now SUNY land -- the front pin area would be the one I would use and therefore still keep the present tree and hillside intact.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 11 in progress)
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2009, 03:57:44 PM »
Actually Matt, when the front hole location is used, and it will be and I'm hoping so on at least two different days, the tee will be moved far forward and probably down onto the next tee box. This will actually bring the water even more into play.
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Jason Topp

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 10 in progress)
« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2009, 04:10:18 PM »
Quote from: Philip Young on June 11, 2009, 01:10:16 PM
The 10th hole was quite controversial back in 2002. Many believed that the 251-yard carry required to reach the fairway landing area was unfair to the players. Let me say up front that I was not among them. Still, was it?

After the Open I gathered the stats of every drive hit during the 4 days of competiton. Even on Friday with the terrible wind and rain fatored in, only 6% of ALL DRIVES hit did not travel at least 252 yards, or long enough to find the fairway. Actually the real problem, as it so often is in issues of this sort, was one, not of distance but of accuracy.


Phil - what percentage failed to reach the fairway on the one day with a strong headwind? (I think Thursday)

I recall the complaint being primarily aimed at the carry into a heavy wind.  Citing statistics that reflect driving distance over four full rounds understates the problem from the last US Open.

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Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 11 in progress)
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2009, 04:32:57 PM »
Jason,

16% of all drives hit on Friday when the wind was up and the rain coming down did not carry 251 yards from the tee. In other words, 131 of 256 drives went more than 251 yards and 25 didn't.

I'll see if I can find the total numbers as I have them buried away in my files somewhere, but I have a lot to do before flying up on Friday.

The one neat fact about driving distance on 10 was that on Sunday, if memory serves me correctly, only 2 drives didn't carry far enough and Corey Pavin's DID!
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Brad Swanson

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 11 in progress)
« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2009, 06:57:21 PM »
I always produce a hearty chuckle when this thread gets bumped to the top of the DG, as the "Last Post" header from the homepage reads "Phil Young's Nuts."


Back on topic, how much better would BPB be with some greens with a little more internal contour?  Or is simply getting to the green in good fashion enough of a challenge on such a brutish golf course?  Tee to green, I've never played a bigger golf course anywhere.  The scale of the place is remarkable.

Cheers,
Brad
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 11 in progress)
« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2009, 07:31:25 PM »
I noticed the same thing Brad, therefore...bump.


Once I noticed it I felt it was too late to change it. Oh well.


Hole 12 coming up shortly.
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 12 in progress)
« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2009, 07:42:00 PM »
Hole 12 – 504 yards par 4:



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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 12 in progress)
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2009, 07:42:22 PM »
More Joe B. images:





















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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 12 in progress)
« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2009, 02:17:28 PM »
Phil,

You Rock!
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 12 in progress)
« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2009, 02:29:33 PM »
Bayley... Thanks!
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 12 in progress)
« Reply #92 on: June 12, 2009, 03:07:08 PM »
While we wait for those missing posts to hopefully be recovered, I present to you a pretty darn neat VirtualReality movie I created from some photos taken standing on the 15th tee at Bethpage Black.  You can clearly see all of the 15th hole, then move over a bit to see the 16th, then the 17th green, part of the 18th hole, and much of #1 as well!  The file is rather large (4.2 MB) so if your connection is via dialup, it will take many minutes:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/bethpageQTVR.mov
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@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 12 in progress)
« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2009, 04:39:52 PM »
Have to say the 11th at BB is truly underrated by a great many people. Falls between the 10th and 12th but really demands a well-played tee shot to a blind landing area -- best bet is from the left side. The green is also one of BB's best -- sloping from back to front and has plenty of movement. The hole isn't especially long but it demonstrates the need for solid execution no matter what.

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Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 12 in progress)
« Reply #94 on: June 13, 2009, 08:02:10 AM »
I'm heading up to New York! I'll try picking this up when I get there to catch us back up and finish...
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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 12 in progress)
« Reply #95 on: June 13, 2009, 08:10:26 AM »
Sounds good Phil, did you have backups of your main posts? I don't think we're going to get the originals recovered. I'll resume posting once you've posted on number 12.
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 12 in progress)
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2009, 02:55:23 PM »
Unfortunately since the missing threads seem to have shuffled off this mortal coil, we're going to have to get this thing started back up. I'm not sure when/if Phil's going to have time during US Open Week to finish up, so I'm going to just start to post them and I beg, plead, encourage anyone with some experience with the Black to post their thoughts. I'll place an extra post after each set of images so that when this thing is in the history books, we can edit the thread a bit to provide a good course guide.

With that, I'll be posting thirteen momentarily.
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 13 in progress)
« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2009, 02:56:29 PM »
Hole 13 – 605 yards par 5:



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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 13 in progress)
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2009, 02:56:39 PM »
And more from Joe B.:















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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 13 in progress)
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2009, 02:57:41 PM »
This space reserved for future commentary.
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Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius
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