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Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 7 in progress)
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2009, 07:37:28 PM »
It's too bad the USGA didn't do a real neat trick with the 7th hole -- have it play as a par-5 for two rounds and a par-4 for the other two. The back tee doesn't interfere in anyway with gallery or other tournament related dimensions.

Candidly, the par-4 tee placement makes the big fairway bunker irrelevant for just about all players. Tillie created that bunker with meaning tied to Hell's Half-Acre and when you play the hole as a par-5 it certainly factors into the equation.



Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 7 in progress)
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2009, 09:18:31 PM »
Matt,

That is a good call about playing it as both... would you be surprised to elarn that this request/idea was put in writing and given serious consideration?

First though, the hole itself.

When the course opened for play in 1936, the trees guarding the fairway corner were there and just as tall. The trees throughout the Black are mostly mature and long-lived. From the back tee it measured 600 yards. Now carefully look at the aerial and consider that the new Open tee is lsted at 525 yards... yet the old championship tee can't be more than 25 yards longer. Why then was it measured at 550?

That is because it is 600 yards if the drive is hit straight as it will carry the left prominence of the great hazard. The USGA tee, when measured straight, cuts off some of this distance and is measured further right. As a par-4 this is as long as it gets...

The great hazard that is in front of the teeing area is NOT a Tilly Hell's Half-Acre. There are certain characteristics missing and every other example of that is one that impedes the second shot played. Still, as a Tillinghast Great Hazard goes, this too is as big as it gets.

The left side bunker is an aiming point for the Open players, and should not come into play; in fact, rarely, if ever, does a ball find its way into it in normal play. The right side fairway bunker can come into play, but usually only when the back championship tee is used. The key here, as in most of the holes on the Black, is for an accurately placed drive. It is quite important that the left side of the fairway be found as the putting surface is completely open to play from this side, and when firm and fast, the ground in front of the green can be used to the advantage of a thinking player, especially when the hole is in the front.

This green has a lot of undulation in it, and more than was there in 2002. This is one of the holes where the exterior portions of the putting surface have been expanded as they leasrned that the green was never recovered to its original size. Further expansion after the Open is planned. As it is, the undulations at the edges of the green where the mounding defines its dimensions are now very much in play. This will really come into play when Mike Davis tucks some hole locations in behind the one on the right and/or next to the left side.

As long as this hole is and plays, in August of 1935, during a practice round to see how the course played and before it would officially open in 1936, MGA Open champion Jimmy Hines became the first person to reach it in two blows from the back championship tee. he hit driver and three-iron and his ball ended up over the green.

Last November, amidst the discussion of having a possible drivable par-4 on the Black, something I am very much against in principle because it goes against the original design by Tilly, Nevertheless I spoke tio the issue. I mentioned that there are only two greens on the Black which could conceivably serve as a fair drivable par-4 if one must be. The 7th was one of them. After strongly recommending that they not make one, I did recommend the following, and as Matt will see, did him one better!

"If you were to consider doing so, which hole would it be? In my opinion, there are only two holes where the green complexes would allow for this, the 7th and the 12th. If one must occur, then I strongly urge you to do it on the 7th. My reason for this is imagine how exciting it would be if the hole played one day as a drivable 4, a long 4 and a long 5! Sundays play could then be dictated by which of the other three days were the most dramatic..."

Mike Sweeney

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 7 in progress)
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2009, 09:46:37 PM »

"If you were to consider doing so, which hole would it be? In my opinion, there are only two holes where the green complexes would allow for this, the 7th and the 12th. If one must occur, then I strongly urge you to do it on the 7th. My reason for this is imagine how exciting it would be if the hole played one day as a drivable 4, a long 4 and a long 5! Sundays play could then be dictated by which of the other three days were the most dramatic..."

Philip.

Okay it is time to pile on the USGA. This is a great great driving hole, with different angles but similar concepts to the 5th off the tee. I realize that it is probably not a big deal for Tiger and Company to clear the bunker but this hole should be played as a Par 5 and the only reason it is not is due to the USGA's need to protect par.

The way it gets set up for The Open, it is just a long Par 4 with no personality and a flat section of the course.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 09:51:01 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2009, 09:47:56 PM »
Hole 8 - 230 yards par 3:



Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2009, 10:13:11 PM »
Let me address the 8th hole -- I'm glad to see a decision has been made to vary the length of the hole there. Playing it at shoirter distances will be a really neat feature because it clearly brings the H20 into play. I don't like the stacking of tee boxes that Rees created there. A bit more free flowing of tee shapes and angles of position would have added a good deal more to the hole.

Let me go back to the 7th --

Phil, the hole should be played as a par-5 so that the BIG BUNKER has some element of involvement. Now with the tees further up and the key ingredient of the ANGLE being changed -- effects immeaurably how players can attack the hole now. You may see the BIG BUNKER as not a replica of Hell's Half-Acre but I see it that way given Tillie's penchant for using the BB site as a way to demonstrate his creativity and love for what PV ibecame. No doubt the 8th at BB is a near replica of the 14th at PV.

Phil, another thing -- this idea of being hands-off to any idea that isn't 100% Tillie in its original form makes no sense. The 18th has been butchered to death over the years. The final product there is a real letdown for such a fantastic course. I would put BB and CP as the two best courses with the weakest concluding holes we have in the States among top 100 courses. Having a world class par-4 is something that BB needs to include -- if not for the '09 US Open then for the future. I have always taken the route that the 18th would be an ideal candidate. BB is simply known to be a PURE MUSCLE golf course. I believe your suggestion for the 7th to be such a hole is a fine thought buit misguided. The 7th should be played as a split par-4 and par-5 hole for the event with each one being used twice for the championship. I can't recall a hole switching pars for a major championship -- but in this case such a move would work quite well from a strategic standpoint.

The 7th as a par-4 is simply one thing -- long. But with the prevailing wind (south / southwest) the hole will not play the maximum.

Last item -- the putting surface is also a snooze fest. No doubt the pin will be tucked and no doubt it will be really quick but all in all, the green at the 7th is far from one of Tillie's best efforts.

Charlie:

Any player attempting to carry the flull length of the BIG BUNKER even from the tip tees needs to really have some helping wind and bomb it big time. I have seen people attempt this but few have made it. No doubt those who can do it would be a fine posiition to reach the green in two blows.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2009, 11:12:24 PM »
With the seventh I don't quite get the idea of a par 4 tee at 525 and a par 5 tee at what appears to be only a few yards longer. (I snapped these in google earth:


Par 4 tee? (the distance shown is about 299 to the turn point):









Followed by the Par 5 tee? (the distance shown is about 303 to the turn point):






Edit: I kept the images but shrunk them so they wouldn't be so obtrusive, the total for the first image is 525, for the second it's 529.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 09:23:41 AM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ed Oden

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2009, 11:35:50 PM »
Terrific thread.  Joe, how did you get pictures of an empty course?  The fairways look more generous than I expected and the rough not as penal outside of the fescue.  Is that right or just reflective of the time of year when Joe's pictures were taken?

Ed

Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2009, 12:21:27 AM »
Charlie,

THe problem you have with the emasurement is really explained by my description of the hole historically. You measured from the same fairway point. They didn't back then and the center of where the tee shots would be played from the back right old championship tee is farther back down the fairway. Among other things, the tree line extends into the beginnings of the drive and so all shots are forced much farther back solely for that reason. That is what accounts for the distance difference. You should stand back on the tee and see where you would aim. The carry to where you show from the back tee is far too long to be used as an accurate measurement.

Matt, You really don't understand the concept of what makes a "Hell's Half-Acre" great hazard or where it is derived. I will post a new topic on this down the road as it really would detract from this discussion.

Also, please don't confuse my description's and comments as being a tacit agreement with the hole being used as a long par-4. I am actually very much against it and would use it SOLELY as a par-5 from the back championship tee. But that is just me.

The idea of "adjusting" courses for our national championships goes back to at least the mid-1920's and became ingrained in the culture of golf far too long ago to change. I am greatly encouraged by Mike Davis" belief in attempting to accentuate the original features and challenges as the designer meant and adapting for todays game.

As far as your comments on the putting surface on 7 being a "snooze fest" simply, in my opinion, shows you to be quite ignorant of both what is there and very definitely of what was there. If and when it is fully restored, as was the 8th, the undulations and movements in putts that will be caused by them will astound you. As it is, there is a great deal of movement in this green.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 12:30:15 AM by Philip Young »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2009, 12:41:12 AM »
The 8th hole is a wonderful par-3 that will really shine this year. As Matt mentioned, the use of different tee locations will accentuate various challenges that weren't attempted back in 2002.

The front putting surface has been extended to the very crest of the hill leading down to the pond, the only water on the course. This isn't new, but actually is a recovery of original putting surface. In the hallway of the Bethpage clubhouse is a photograph of the 1st Sam Snead exhibition match held in September of 1938. There is a crowd surrounding the players on the 8th green. Two very importamt things stand out, although one is rarely noticed. The first is that the right hillside was actually a bunker, very similar in style to those at the San Francisco Golf Club. There was no tall tree on that corner, but look carefully! there it is, as a very young foot & a half tall sapling. A good maintenance staff would have ripped it out and never let it grow... thankfully so that they didn't! That tree is now the most significant aspect of the hole. Unfortunately it is dying and this will be its last Open. Hopefully it will be replaced with another mature tree...

What is rarely noticed is where the crowd is standing... they are on the putting surface and it actually extends beyond them to the very crest of the hill. It was when this part of the photograph was shown to the pwoers that be an understanding of just how much putting surface needed to be restored was understood. Other photographs of other greens followed...

The front hole location, which will be used for at least one day will also have a front tee location. The opposite will take place when the far back hole location is used with a back tee location. This will make the hole play possibly as much as 40 yards difference in length!

This will be a dramatic and fun hole to hang out at...

Sam Maryland

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 6 in progress)
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2009, 01:54:53 AM »
I'm exhausted just reading this thread--and it's just the 6th hole! I can't imagine what it's like to play the course (which I haven't).

Is the 6th hole a "breather" hole?

Thanks for this great thread.

Absolutely not!   

- perfectly hit 3-wood yields a 9i to 6i depending on the player.
- anything else and you are playing from reasonably deep fairway bunkers , or rough, to a green that's hard to hold with anything more than about an 8i, ball has to land in front 1/3 of green and there's not a lot to work with there.
- deep greenside bunkers, but reasonable assuming the ball ends up in the flats.
- at US Open green speeds chipping from behind the green will be a complete crapshoot, as Phil points out the slope is a fair bit more than it looks

I'll be surprised if drivers hit for the week are 10 in aggregate, just doesn't pay.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 01:57:03 AM by Sam Maryland »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2009, 02:27:01 AM »
Joe, how did you get pictures of an empty course?  The fairways look more generous than I expected and the rough not as penal outside of the fescue.  Is that right or just reflective of the time of year when Joe's pictures were taken?

The photos are from early July of 2007.  My buds and I went up on a Friday night and got lucky:  we were the first group off that next morning!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2009, 02:31:52 AM »
Some pics of the par 3 8th:










@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Sweeney

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2009, 05:58:29 AM »
Even the worst Rees bashers cannot say the 8th hole is not 10 times better than what was there 10 or so year ago. Trees removed on the right hill was a huge improvement.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2009, 06:08:02 AM »
Isn't the Black walking only?

What's with the ugly macadam paths?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2009, 07:03:59 AM »
Isn't the Black walking only?

What's with the ugly macadam paths?

Mike,

  Maintenance vehicle paths. While they look glaring in Joe's pix, they aren't so bad in person.  ;D
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Anthony Gray

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 8 in progress)
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2009, 08:00:32 AM »


  Great spectator hole.

  Anthony


Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 9 in progress)
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2009, 09:14:18 AM »
Hole 9 – 460 yards par 4:






The Pace for today and tomorrow will be somewhat breakneck, we’ve got 10 holes to get through by the end of tomorrow. As always, please feel free to post your comments and images and I apologize in advance if it feels like I’m leaving you behind.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 9 in progress)
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2009, 09:14:44 AM »
Here are Joe Bausch’s images of number 9. He won’t be around today so he was kind enough to send me the links. (He’ll be out enjoying the golf at the LPGA Tourney at Bulle Rock.) Thanks Joe!




















Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 9 in progress)
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2009, 09:32:51 AM »
Phil:

Beg to differ with you partner -- but you're not the only guy who truly loves the Black and wants to see it be a bit more balanced in terms of what iit provided. I've played it coutnless times and there are clear holes on the design that could have been changed -- instead of the heavy handed let's add more muscle for the sake of muscle.

I take strong exception with your insertion of the word "ignorance" -- Phil, the 7th is a boring green complex. It comes at the end of a long par-4 (which you and I agree should have been played for at least two rounds as it normally plays as a par-5).

The 8th has been improved with the rear green extension and the cleaning up of various items along the hillside and to the left of the green. Few people really know that another pond existed to the left of the main one that remains.

Last point -- Phil, the issue for the BIG BUNKER at the 7th is not some sort of history lesson -- feel free to educate me and others -- the real point I made which you clearly missed -- is that it serves no real purpose with the hole playing as a par-4 -- it will be nothing more than a set decoration and the original design (as a par-5) would have had it play a more functional and active role.


Mike S, et al:

Have to throw this forward / re: 8th hole.

Tillie said it best in "The Course Beautiful" in his take on "teeing grounds" (page 88 / section 35) --

"Often when there are two or three teeing grounds provided for one hole, they are laid out in a dead straight line. This not only looks artificial but the arrangement robs the hole of variety. Playing to the fairway from different angles not only is pleasing, but often the wind dictates a different angle almost as much as length."

My main issue with what Rees does in a number of times is layout tee boxes as he did with the 8th hole at BB -- they are simply stacked likes airplanes folllowing one another prior to takeoff. Moving the tee boxes to different locations on the high hiill of the 8th would give a different look and allow the wind and distances played to be a daily challenge for players to figure out.

The 8th is, in my mind, the second best par-3 at the course -- friends of mine see it as the best -- and I'm happy to see the USGA will vary tee lengths there. The Rees team has predictably layed out tee pads in the manner I just mentioned. It works from a basic standpoint but lacks real variety beyond the stacking element I made previously.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 9 in progress)
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2009, 10:01:12 AM »
Matt,

Phil Young can correct me, but from memory of pre-reestoration, it was one level on the 8th tee, and when you played back, the green was cut off visually.

Don't see an aerial from above, is there any room for tees from alternate angles? I don't remember.

Mark Woodger

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 9 in progress)
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2009, 10:36:29 AM »
Phil,

thanks again for the info and this great thread.

One question i have and forgive me if you would rather not say. Is how you know so much about the conversations that take place and the discussion regarding the course layout/setup for the US Open?  Its a great insight into the process that the USGA go through and i am curious to how the overall process works.

I think this will be helpful into understanding why the set-up is put together and further enjoyment during the tournement.

Personally i think 7 should be a par 4 and 5 throughout the tournement and would like the course to be tough but give the players chance of a charge up the leaderboard on sunday to make it exciting!


Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 9 in progress)
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2009, 10:50:30 AM »
#8 does seem to resemble PV #14. Is the elevation change comparable? How about the green? PV #14 has a significant right to left slope on the right side.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 9 in progress)
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2009, 12:11:49 PM »
Matt, Tilly did believe in using different tee boxes WHERE AVAILABLE. Take a look at the illustration that Tilly himself drew and used in the article you quote from and you will see that he actually designed a SINGLE tee box! It was shaped in the letter tee with the cross portion ultra wide and angled.

Would various tee boxes at different angles to the hole make the hole intersting? Certainly, but tow questions... WHERE would you locate them, this is a problem and in 2000-2002, who would PAY for the work?

Mike Sweeney has a good memory... it was a single flat area with actually two tee boxes, though maintenance melded them into one. It was difficult to see the putting surface and whether one likes the idea that they are kept in line or not, raising them as the y extended back and actually lowering the very front one just a bit was necessary to allow the player to see the entire green complex.

Mark, I have not been an official part of the process in getting the Black ready for 2009 but I've been privileged to be allowed to be on site a number of times since 2002 when changes were being discussed and even asked for input. In addition, those officially invovled have given me access to the discussions and have more than put up with my questions, comments and even suggestions.

There have been a number of points and questions raised about the Black since 2002 by those on this site and elsewhere. What almost none know is that their voices have not gone unheard. I've made it my job to ask those questions on their behalf. Not a single time did I not ask because I disagreed with the idea or concept mentioned. For example, Matt and others have both blamed the USGA and been critical of the choice made to keep the fairway/rough lines at the 2002 Open widths. By asking I was able to report that this was NOT a USGA decision (unknown to most is a memo sent by Mike Davis urging that that the fairways be widened either before or after the 2009 Open) and that the powers that be at the Park both had made the decision to provide as close to a true "U.S. Open experience" as the public player would ever get by leaving it that way, and found that the VAST majority of comments about doing so, and the Bethpage players DO let it be known, have agreed with this decision.


Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 9 in progress)
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2009, 12:38:05 PM »
The 9th hole is a quite interesting one, especially as it does impact a bit on the discussion once again currently underway as to the necessity for a "world-class" drivable par-4 to take the place of the 18th. The 9th hole was originally designed with two tees, including one that was placed up the hill and to the left of the 8th green. From here, a well-played drive could reach the green from some 280-290 yards away. What would allow this was the tree line was not out as far as it is today and was visible from the tee. Secondly, the opening to the putting surface on the laft side, which back then was also much larger as a surface and opening, was placed there for that exact option.

So for all who have ever wondered, YES, there was an OPTION for a drivable par-4 built into the Black!

Over the years this option was taken out because of liability issues and the tree line was allowed to impact until, as it does today, would prvent all but the most insanely courageous to attempt going over them (count me as one of the insane!). Finally the back tee to the right of the 8th green became used exclusively from the late '80's on.

When the course was being renovated and rstored the question of length on the hole was an important one. Without a far back tee this hole would be a simple drive it far and long onto the top plateau and have a 50-yard wedge... it would have been defenseless. And so the new back tee was installed and it actually was almost as controversial as the one on number 10 became. The criticism was that it was too far for many of the palyers to attempt getting up on the upper level. That is a bit ironical now as an even further back tee was built for this years Open.

Some have been quite vocal in their criticism of the USGA to build this. This is unfair on their part because the USGA both NEVER suggested that one was needed and should be built, but specifically urged Bethpage NOT to do so. Actually, the USGA still hasn't decided to use the the tee for play during the Open and are leaning heavily toward not. It will be interesting to see why and how the decision is made.

The powers that be at Bethpage made the decision to do it because the land became available to them. In an attempt to limit a GCA.com discussion about the "famous Bethpage land swap" in about 100 years from now, the state of New York swapped out some land with the State University of Farmingdale located directly behind this hole and which owned it. It was done because they felt that sooner or later it would be needed because of the added distance gains that will be made with technology in the future among the top pros.

One of the more controversial course adjustments for this years Open is the new bunker that was built into the face of the hillside leading to the upper plateau. What is unknown or forgotten by those that are critical of it is that the fairway was actually widened out to the right.

During the 2002 Open a good number of drives were played off this hillside face by those attempting to drive onto the plateau. Now it becomes an actual risk/reward decision with a very fair landing area for those that choose not to. With an additional slight lengthening of the existing back tee which the USGA did encourage, all but the biggest of hitters will have a clear question to ask themselves while standing on the tee.

The green itself is plentiful and the bunkering fits well with tilly's philosophy of allowing the land forms used dictate the size, depth and shape of them.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 10 in progress)
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2009, 12:39:18 PM »
Hole 10 – 508 yards par 4:


Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

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