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Charlie Goerges

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #125 on: June 16, 2009, 09:23:22 AM »
Hole 18 from Joe Bausch (Thanks a million Joe!):














Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #126 on: June 16, 2009, 10:20:14 AM »
Originally the 18th was to have a large drainage lake at the base of the hill that was to stretch from 1 on the Red to 1 on the green. Why it didn't happen isn't known.

As this hole has been discussed quite often, let me tell you about the fabled Sam Snead vs. Byron Nelson match on September 28, 1940. For many years now there has been a myth that Snead walked off the course claiming it was just too difficult. According to whom you hear it from it happened on the 4th, 5th &/or 15th holes.

Sorry to all who've believed that tale, but it never happened.

This exhibition match occurred 6 weeks after Snead lost the PGA championship to Lord Byron. Seeking revenge and for that reason alone it was played quite seriously and Sam wouldn't leave. IN addition, this was actually Sam's SECOND round on the Black. Nearly two years to the day earlier he played another exhibition match and recorded the first round below par and a course record of 70!

They came to the 18th green TIED in match play and both made pars to finsih even.

Sam played well and once again tied his record of 70 and became the 2nd person to shoot under par. Unfortunately, Byron's par putt was for a NEW course record and first score ever in the 60's with a 69!

September 28, 1940.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #127 on: June 16, 2009, 10:26:27 AM »
I find the early vs now greenside bunkering comparison to be much more interesting for the back nine.







@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jamie_Duffner

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #128 on: June 16, 2009, 03:07:03 PM »
First I want to thank Ran for not cancelling my membership to this great site. It's been so long since I last posted, although I do stop in to read the posts from time to time.

Nothing like a good Bethpage Black thread to get me back in the game!  Thanks to Phil and others for this thread and the great pictures.

Without writing a book, I've always enjoyed the banter between Matt Ward and Phil Young - two guys who have deep passion for the Black.  I can agree with some points you both make.  I recall writing letters to David Fay back in 1998 when I heard they were going to convert 13 into a par 4, while leaving 7 as a par 5, which would have made 7 the last par 5 on the course - yuck!  We actually had a nice two-letter's each exchange.

On 18, the hole has always suffered from what I feel is "running out of topography."  The Black has a such a great routing on wonderful land.  I can imagine Tilly standing on 17 thinking to himself "now how do I get this thing back to the house with a solid 18th hole?"  If it were me, I would have made a couple changes to the existing hole.  First, move the green to the right one full green complex width and back a very minor 5-10 yards.  If you look at the ground level pictures, this would set up for a diagonal front left to back right green shape - in contrast to the 17th green.  The stand of trees there would still provide good separation from the 1st tee on the red.  Second, take those awful flanking bunkers, which is something that does not fit with the diagonal nature of most tees shots on the black and reposition into diagonal comlpexes.  My preference, take the right bunker complex and extend out and short left, while taking the left bunker complex and extending a bit long and right.  make certain to have a landing area short right of the first bunker complex.  This would be the easier tee ball, but would leave a longer second with not the best angle.  The hole would be a subtle dogleg right with so much more interest.  If not this, then a 340ish par 4 with some potential to drive the green, maybe 10th at Riviera sort of thing. 

Aside from that, I still do not know why in the seven years since the 02 open, nothing was done to a few greens.  Winged Foot greens at the black would be silly, but some tilt and minor internal contouring would have added some real interest.  Number's 2, 6, 7, 9, and 18 (aside from fixing the entire hole) come to mind.  I think this was an opportunity missed. 


Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #129 on: June 18, 2009, 02:05:42 AM »
Nice photo tour posted on another site by a fellow who played the course.  Click "Slideshow" for high resolution pics.  It was pretty dark for him playing 17 and 18.

http://picasaweb.google.ca/jevincentjr/Bethpage2008#
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #130 on: June 18, 2009, 04:27:02 AM »
Just a quick thanks to Charlie, Phil and everyone who has contributed. A great and informative tour of this years US Open course. This thread will probably be up on my laptop while I watch most of the coverage so I can make constant reference to it.

I didn't see much of the US Open in 2002, but from what I have seen and read, I find it very hard to comprehend a par 4 of 525 odd yards as is the case with the 7th, when the 4th is 517 yards? I could understand if one was severly up or down hill but this just seems real odd to me? I should add though that as we all know par is just a number! And, I'm glad that the R&A have decided to keep all par 4s at our Open to 499 yards or less...

The other thing which has always stood out for me when looking at the Google Earth is some of the bunkering just looks plain ugly and excessive. I'm thinking 11 and 12, then 18. However, the pictures posted here show that the ones on 11 and 12 dont look that odd on the ground, but those on 18 still do, but thats another thread...

Lastly, and a real shame, only a few days ago when looking at Google Earth you could look at the old aerials before the renovation, taken in the mid 90s. However, I cant see them anymore, which is a shame as I was hoping to post them here for reference.

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #131 on: June 18, 2009, 11:52:14 AM »
Jamie:

A few thoughts ... you mentioned #7 and I had previously suggested that the 7th play as par-5 and par-4 for the event -- with two different tee bioxes being used. I do agree that having #13 remain as a par-5 if forced to choose between the two is the better call.

Jamie, in regards to the 18th -- I think having the pond that was originally called for would be a plus on many fronts. It's possible with some creative imagination to have the finsihing hole as a driveable world class par-4 -- clearly going beyond the overwhelming array of muscle par-4's that are the backbone of the course. The Black needs a summary statement at the end of one's day there -- going with another long par-4 as some have advocated (see Phil Y as one person) would only be an overkill of immense proportions.

I do agree with you on the greens front -- especially for such holes as #2, #6 and #9, to name just three. Clearly, the "new" 18th that I am advocating would have something on this front as well.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #132 on: June 18, 2009, 04:47:00 PM »
Matt,
 :P


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #133 on: June 20, 2009, 07:42:41 AM »
Fantastic Thread.  The bunker comparison shows how faithful the work was to the original.  The combination or aerials, ground photography, hole desciptions and debate makes this course descriptions far superior to anything else I have seen from a paid publication. 

If someone could show me how to post the aerial versions of the holes, I could syart a much more limited thread on the most interesting holes at Hazeltine for the PGA - although I would guess 4-5 holes of that course deserve similar examination.

Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #134 on: June 20, 2009, 02:01:24 PM »
Phil:

Check out the hole stats of the 18th and how it stacks up against the other holes. It is truly weak and if anything the '09 events shows it's what needs to be dramatically changed in my mind.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #135 on: June 20, 2009, 08:25:20 PM »
I've read much discussion over the last couple of years concerning BB needing a drivable par 4.  I've heard No 7 and 9 considered, and argued pro and con.

Could not a forward tee on No 2 work?  Or is the green there just a bit too protected and elevated to hold a 3 wood if a tee was moved up to say 290 yards?  Or is it simply that a drivable par 4 is not as welcomed so early in a round?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Sweeney

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #136 on: June 20, 2009, 09:46:21 PM »
I would never want to see 7 or 9 become short holes. 2 is too uphill to work. Only 18 is a possibility and I doubt the USGA would want that.

Matt_Ward

Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #137 on: June 21, 2009, 01:31:24 PM »
Joe B:

#2 is not a solution ... the real need for #2 is having a new green replace the flat as a pancake surface you see there now.

The issue of a driveable par-4 is tied to creating first and foremost a stellar short par-4 at BB -- if it can have a driveable aspect that would be icing on the cake for me.

As Mike S mentioned -- the 18th is the only real place for such a hole. The USGA has shown recent signs of flexibility in this regard -- it just seems to me that people have to realize that the existing 18th is not working as a closing hole -- it was tweaked but the fundamental core of what is there is truly dull -- Tillie hit many home runs in his designs but the original what's been done there afterwards by Rees and crew is in need of an overhaul to something along the lines I and others have mentioned.


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil Young's Nuts and Bolts look at the Black (Hole 18 in progress)
« Reply #138 on: June 22, 2009, 01:05:18 PM »
I would never want to see 7 or 9 become short holes. 2 is too uphill to work. Only 18 is a possibility and I doubt the USGA would want that.

Isn't 18 nearly as uphill as 2 Mike?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

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