[Steve Kupfer]

I can't wait for Jimmy Robert's video essay on how "supportive" the New York fans are to the players.

If I were Sergio I wouldn't bother to show up as everyone will be ganging up on him once again. I wonder if the New York crowd will react to Jim Furyk's putting routine the same way as they did to Sergio's regripping. Of course not.

Pat, I think you've made your distaste for New Yorkers abundantly clear here over the past week.  Wouldn't surprise me at all to see Furyk get heckled.

[Charlie Goerges]

Phil and Jay,

I posted the aerials to a new thread so as not to derail/compete with the focus of this thread. Hope that's cool with you.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

With all due respect - if you really see #2 as one of the two top holes on the course then you are in need of some really good glasses.

#2 is quite lame and as I said previously -- until you get to #4 does BB really start in earnest. As Doak has said previously -- all great courses have a world class type short par-4 hole -- BB doesn't have one of real high caliber style in my mind.

If you want a real sleeper hole -- try the 11th which is often bypassed because of the attention #10 and #12 get.

[Joe Bausch]

Some pics of No 2 to maybe help those who have not visited Bethpage Black:

Phil is correct about needing to be left on this hole.  It is tempting to think you can hit a drive or fw wood and turn it bit off the banking fairway:



But if you don't turn your tee shot and hit up in the rough, it is typically thick enough to not come down.  And you end up with a view like this for your 2nd shot and, well, you can kiss birdie goodbye and just hope for an up and down par:



And this pic from the middle of the fairway pretty far back from the green somewhat shows how uphill the hole is at the end:

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

For all of Tom Doak's incredible talent, it is still merely his opinion, educated as it may be, that ALL great golf courses must have a world-class short par-4. I maintain that the Black is the clear excepption to that rule... if rule it is.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

Have you played BB ? Then compare the 2nd to the 11th and you'll begin to understand why I favor the latter as one of the most underrated holes on the course.

Phil:

We agree to disagree ... BB is about M-U-S-C-L-E golf to the max. I love what it provides more than just about anyone else but the short par-4 element is not present on that layout.

Except ...

If they should change the closing hole to a driveable one !

p.s. I believe Doak's exact comment was that a superior short par-4 needs to be included -- the great ones clearly have world class versions of this type of hole. BB clearly doesn't -- and for that it falls short when such comparisons / contrasts are ultimately made.

[Shane Wright]

Dave:

With all due respect - if you really see #2 as one of the two top holes on the course then you are in need of some really good glasses.

#2 is quite lame and as I said previously -- until you get to #4 does BB really start in earnest. As Doak has said previously -- all great courses have a world class type short par-4 hole -- BB doesn't have one of real high caliber style in my mind.

If you want a real sleeper hole -- try the 11th which is often bypassed because of the attention #10 and #12 get.

Agreed with your statement about #2.  

Disagree with your Doak comment...or maybe I should say I disagree with Doak.  I personally feel that Bethpage is a great course and I agree with you that it doesn't have a world class short par 4,

but this could be a whole other discussion topic....Ballybunion, probably my personal favorite and a Doak 10 doesn't have a world class short par 4.....RCD really doesn't either.    

[Joe Bausch]

And take a look at that left, greenside bunker, which is very easy to bail out into from the right side of the fairway.  No picnic there...

That bunker is from where I played my 3rd as I tried a hero 2nd shot from the right rough that I had no chance of executing.  

[Jay Flemma]

I like both 2 and 11...but I understand the guys who like 2 a great deal, because as 2, you have to work the ball.

[BCyrgalis]

Phil and Matt,

I agree with Doak about having a great short par-4 on every world-class golf course, although I don't think it's a necessity.  Short par-4's are normally the best designed holes on the course, and BB doesn't have one.  That's why all the rumors were swirling about moving the tee up on No. 6 and making it drivable (about 340, downhill).  Of course, because that's not the way the hole was designed - and if the tees were moved up, it's STILL a stupid play to go for the green - it's unlikely that will actually happen.  It's smart to cut the side of that hill to fairway, which Davis has decided to do, this way making it a bit more inviting for someone to hit a three-wood over the left bunker.  But even that's kind of a dumb play.  Point is, there is no good, short par-4 on BB and it's a glaring deficiency (which is hard to say for someone who loves the course as much as I do).  

As for No. 2: take that hole out of BB and it's a great hole.  In the midst of BB, it's a weakling.  But think about it being in the middle of any other muni - really, just about any other course, period - and it might be the best hole on the course.  It's a interesting tee shot, having to move the ball right-to-left and avoid tree and rough trouble on both sides and give yourself a clean look from the left side of the fairway.  The approach is up the hill, with bunkers everywhere, and the only miss is long - which is almost impossible to do, considering how non-uphill it looks.  If you do hit your wedge on the green, it should be a three (flat green), but who said a hole is bad if it's birdieable?  I almost wish there were more holes like No. 2 out there.  They could also move that tee back, and they haven't (yet, thank God), keeping the ENTIRE course from being 500-yard par-4's.

In terms of great stuff to watch for, how about just sitting at the 15th green and watching the best in the world look like weekend hackers - from one side of the green to the other, rolling putts off the front, etc.  And, of course, if you know how tough that green really is, I'm sure you'll see some shots that might not look spectacular - chips to 10-15 feet - that you know are absolutely great.

And, whether you like the guy or you don't, hearing the roars for Mickelson, no matter what he shoots, is going to send chills down everyone's spine.

[Joe Bausch]

And in the interest of fairness, a few pics of No 11:

[mike_malone]

 My impression of BB is that there are a few interesting ridges  on the property but they are not very close together. This creates a challenge for the flatter holes that connect those ridges. I just believe that the course lags far behind in these stretches COMPARED to the top tier courses, for instance Oakmont.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Few are aware of the land to the outer portions of the black. Right of 4-6 for example. There is some very interesting land forms in there that would yield some remarkable holes as well. Right of 9 & 10 as well which will serve as a staging area for equipment and media dishes, etc...

When the Black was designed and built, even with all of that land available, they were restricted in where they could go due to the needs of the public buildings that were to come and already being planned for such as SUNY Farmingdale.

It was these future needs that would end up forcing the final 4 holes into the area where they are and leave very little choice as to the final design for number 18.

[Mike Sweeney]

#2 is quite lame and as I said previously -- until you get to #4 does BB really start in earnest. As Doak has said previously -- all great courses have a world class type short par-4 hole -- BB doesn't have one of real high caliber style in my mind.

Matt,

Maybe on your 275th round at Bethpage, you will finally see the light. 

The first tee shot at Bethpage is a great one:

* It sits high and mighty over the first fairway similar to Shinnecock and National.
* Rather than old ladies eating turtle soup in your backswing, you have a bunch of Long Island Goomba's betting on your chances of hitting the fairway after you have just read the infamous sign.
* If you miss the fairway, hitting that green just got a bunch tougher.
* Second shot is good if not great and the green is probably a better one on the course.
* If you don't love the atmosphere on the first tee, well you probably should not be there.

Second hole could replace any of the short 4's at Merion in the 7-12 stretch at Merion except for #11 and you don't miss a beat.

* Just because Matt can't hit his 6 degree extra extra stiff 46' driver does not make it a bad hole.
* 3 wood or hybrid off the tee needs to be shaped to find the fairway.
* Again if you don't find it, finding the green is tough.
* Uphill blindish shot leaves a little mystery when you get to the green.

Third hole I agree with Matt. 

[mike_malone]

 Sweeney,

    Saying #2 is better than that stretch at Merion ain't sayin' much

[Richard Choi]

* Rather than old ladies eating turtle soup in your backswing, you have a bunch of Long Island Goomba's betting on your chances of hitting the fairway after you have just read the infamous sign.

The 1st tee shot at Bethpage Black is the most intimidating tee shot in golf - Bar NONE! It may not be exactly due to golf course architecture, but that is one tough tee shot.

[Matt_Ward]

Let me explain a few things about #11 ...

First, the tee ground doesn't afford a direct look at the landing area. You need to feel really comfortable in settingyourself on the tee and then working the ball into the proper position -- more often than not that's the left side as it provides the most direct and slightly more accessible area to most pin areas.

The green is also quite challenging and is easily light years beyond the pedestrian nature of #2.

If you go above the pin or have any really serious sidehill putt you will be challenged to the max to escape the dreaded three-jack. #11 gets lost in the sauce because people provide air to the preceding 10th and the following 12th.

Dave S:

If you really believe #2 is among the top two holes on the entire BB layout then you missed plenty on what else is there.

Mike S:

I like the 1st tee shot at BB -- but if the 1st at the Red were the starting hole it would be even better. I don't doubt the intimidating feelings that the hole inspires -- but for the big boys with the prevailing south - southwest wind the hole is nothing more than a 3-metal followed by a mid-to-short iron. If Tiger had the druthers he would take driver and blow it over the right side so that he would have nothing more than flip wedge into the hole.

Mike, no doubt the 1st actually plays harder for the high handicap player because the corner PLAYS that much further out given their limited distance off the tee. I've had many friends of mine swear the difficulty of the 1st because of this dimension. Longer players don't fret about the corner and seeing the green with the 2nd shot. I agree with the rough playing a major role should one miss the fairway -- but your strongest point is the nature of the green -- very narrow in the front and sloped from back to front with plenty of underrated contours.

Nonetheless, in my mind the real greatness of BB starts when the players make their way to the 4th tee.

Mike, one last thing -- it's a 5.5 degree driver with a 47-inch shaft !

Then the game is onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn ...

Phil:

Good point on the nature of the land to the right of #4 and #5 ... could have been something if golf were focused on that part of the property.

Shane:

I too believe BB is a great course but when you lump it to other great courses -- the short par-4 dimension needs to be used a one measurement method. BB could have revamped the 6th or more likely the 18th to have such an addition -- sorry to say -- nothing on that front of real improvement was done (save for the USGA now cutting the rough grass that was allowed to grow across the downslope of the 6th hole.

On Ballybunion and RCD -- the differene between them and BB is that the two Irish layouts have the better overall variety of holes and land sites, in my mind.

[George Pazin]

What are you the most excited to see?

1) Better weather.

2) Actual play. Last Open at BB found me in a hospital for one of the few times in my life (thankfully, and only briefly at that). Hopefully I'll actually get to see some of this one.

[Carl Rogers]

How the Mike Davis, USGA mowing lines will influence play and the outcome.

[Anthony Butler]

Speaking of Mike Davis. Here's an interview with my pal, Jason Sobel at ESPN.com.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4236511&name=sobel_jason

Good explanation of what they are trying to do different from 2002, and a shout out to GCA.com golden boy Geoff Ogilvy.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

Let me help you out here ... you played the course how many times?

Once? Twice?

That perspective is a limited one -- albeit you do have a good eye so don't take offense.

But you said #2 is among the top two holes at BB. That's silly and quite off target.

I don't have a preference for a muscle hole -- I simply said that #11 is one of the most underrated holes on the course and has far more strategic elements than #2. Try to keep this in mind -- the 2nd green at BB is flatter than Kansas. The draw shot off the tee at #2 is quite straightforward -- if you want more of a challenging shot -- try the opening tee shot as Mike S and a few others have opined.

Dave, preferences are wonderful -- the issue is building a solid airtight case -- you missed a good deal at BB -- beyond the likes of #2 you have a much more interesting dimension with a hole like #6 -- you can layback off the tee or head down the hill to get the shorter wedge play for a better birdie try. The green at #6 is also much more complex than the simple one encountered at #2.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

The "horizontal sweep?"

C'mon please -- I'm rolling on the ground here.

Dave, how many times have you played BB ? Like I said ...once? twice?

The 2nd is a simple draw shot which then has the player playing an uphill shot to a DEAD FLAT green.

Dave, the optical distortion? If you want optical distortion -- pin that tag on a hole like #15 or even #17.

The 6th has a sweeping nature which brings into play a multitude of different strategic options -- the 11th is also quite underrated, as I said previoously, because of where it's situated on the course.

Dave, I can appreciate your take but if you truly believe #2 is among the top two holes at BB you are certainly in need of better glasses good buddy.

[Gary Slatter]

I am looking forward to seeing who is second?

[Ray Richard]

My favorite spot is the tee box on #4, watching the boys belt away. I also like the scene around #17 green, with great bunkering and a collection of leather-lunged New Yorkers yelling as each shot lands.

[Sean_A]

I may be one of the few who, but I am not looking forward to Bethpage as a venue. I have never been enamored with ball busting par fours. I just hope for a close competition.

I am with you Tommy.  Bethpage doesn't look like my kinda place, but because I will be on a golfing trip during this time I expect to see a few hours.  I think the best we can hope for is Carnasty like carnage.  Thats entertainment.  Bring on the shit weather and long rough.

Ciao 

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