Olivos Golf Club -- #71 Outside the U.S. (?!) -- Now With Working Pics

[Carl Nichols]

Last week I returned to play Olivos Golf Club, which I had last played about eight years ago.  The two better nines at Olivos, which is located about 25 miles from the center of Buenos Aireas,  are ranked by Golf Digest as the #1 course in Argentina and the #71 course outside of the United States.   It was a beautiful fall day, and there is a lot to like about the course – it’s on a gently rolling piece of property (the best site I’ve seen in Greater Buenos Aires); it’s an easy walk, with greens and tees very close to one another; the par 4’s and par 5’s require the low handicapper to work the ball to get in the best position, but are still playable for the high handicapper;  a few of the greens have some pretty interesting contours (see a few below); and the greens were in terrific condition the day I played.  It’s a really enjoyable place to play.

But is it worthy of its #71 outside-the-U.S. ranking by GD?  To paraphrase Matt Ward, hold the phone:   the San Isidro layout just doesn’t put forward enough from a design perspective to stand with the top 100.  To start with, it has several weaknesses.  Among other things, the par 3’s are very similar (all placed on flat pieces of the property with raised greens that slope back to front),  one or two holes are head-scratchers, the greens struck me as too large for the layout, and some of the newer fairways bunkers don’t fit the overall style.  More generally, and I realize this is an extremely general and subjective comment, but nothing about the course stood out to me as great.  But to be ranked #71 in the world Olivos has to be better than the 29 courses ranked below it and ALL of the *unranked* courses, a list that includes (just to name a few):   County Louth, Doonbeg, Ballyliffin, Enniscrone, Portstewart, Nairn, Saunton, Royal Cinque Ports, Jasper Park, Dye Fore, and various courses in Cabo.  I just don’t think Olivos is that good.  

So what explains the ranking?  I think it’s either a desire on GD’s part to have some form of geographical diversity in its rankings or (more likely, in my view) a bias that creeps into individual raters’ minds as they think something along these lines:  everybody talks about Argentina’s long golf history, including MacKenzie’s work at the Jockey Club and other locations; Buenos Aires has a European feel; a city/country with that history and that kind of vibe must have *some* courses that are in the top 100 outside the U.S.; because it was designed by MacKenzie, the Jockey Club must be in the top 100; this course might be better than the Jockey Club; ergo, this course has to be ranked in the top 100.  And they vote accordingly.

But that’s not really the point of this post, which is really supposed to just be a photo tour of the course.  [I’m no Aidan Bradley, but the ho-hum nature of a lot these pics still suggests that this isn’t a top 100 course.  My camera also doesn't really pick up the rolling nature of the site.]  All distances are from the back tees.

Nice, understated clubhouse, with  a nice expanse of green around it and the various holes that play to and from it (all three nines return to the clubhouse)



White Nine.  

#1.  Par 5, 508 yards.  Plays downhill, then doglegs left and back uphill to a tricky green, especially when the pin is in front.  Good opener.





#2.  385 yards.  Dogleg right up the hill.  Double green, split from the other hole by a huge hump that you can see a little bit of from the last shot.    








#3.  420 yards.  Dogleg left; very difficult to get in the right position.  Green has a Biarritz-like swale in the middle, but set at an angle to the line of play.







#4.  178 yards.  First of the par 3’s.



#5. 445 yards.  Probably my favorite hole out here -- slight dogleg right, then a green that looks like it’s hanging on a precipice.  





#6. par 4, 415 yards.  Slight dogleg left.  



While #10 at Winged Foot may require a shot that feels like you’re hitting for someone’s living room, the play here is to pick a shanty outside the gates of the neighborhood and swing…..



….as contrasted with the house (in traditional Argentine) inside the gates.



#7.  176 yards.  





#8 par 5, 512 yards.   Dogleg right.



From the landing zone; circular, steep-faced fairway bunker on left-hand side seems out of place





#9.  346 yards.  Downhill, then uphill dogleg left.  Interesting green set into the slope of the hill.  One of my favorite holes, even if the bunkers don’t quite fit in.






Really cool halfway house – but very odd that it’s located within 100 yards of the clubhouse.



Colorada (Red) Nine

#1.  199 yards



#2.  557 yards.  Down the hill, then dogleg left.  





#3.  399 yards.  Uphill tee shot/dogleg right, then two-tiered green.  





#4.  166 yards.  Claustrophobic!





#5.  436 yards, dogleg left.  Greenside bunkers remind me of some of Rees Jones’s work.  





#6. Par 5, 470 yards.  Dogleg right, downhill to green with pond in front.  Good risk-reward hole.





#7. Par 4, 402 yards.  Hard dogleg left; turn point seemed to be about 170 yards from the tee, and trees block out cutting off the dogleg.  Not my favorite.  







#8 210 yards.  Really tough hole; in addition to the length, the green has significant contours.



#9 Par 5, 503 yards.  Uphill back to the clubhouse.

[Peter Ferlicca]

I don't know if it is just me but I can't see any of the pictures.  I would really like to though, have heard good things about this place.

[Carl Nichols]

Working on it -- I guess you can't use Ofoto to host pictures (?), so need to transfer them to Flickr.

[Tom_Doak]

Carl:

Look forward to seeing your photos of the course, which I missed when I was in Argentina 10 years ago.

As for the GOLF DIGEST World rankings, they never really explain exactly how they arrive at them ... they imply they use the same voting system as for the U.S. list, but they don't really say they do, and they sure don't publish the numbers for all to see. 

It does appear that there are several suspiciously "token" choices in the bottom half of their list, which just might be placed there to give DIGEST's many overseas affiliate magazines something to talk about.  I can tell you that your reasoning about voters trying to help out courses in exotic locales does have a bit of validity to it, based on what I saw from years of adding up the GOLF Magazine results -- courses like Durban CC and Morfontaine, while both great courses, are ranked higher than they would be if they were somewhere around London.  But Olivos [and some of those Asian courses on the GD list] never came within a mile of the GOLF Magazine list while I was running it, so I suspect foul play at GOLF DIGEST.

[Carl Nichols]

Sorry for the hiccup -- this post should now contain pictures.

[Bill_McBride]

Sorry for the hiccup -- this post should now contain pictures.

That's a place that could really use two crews with four chain saws and a dump truck.  Does it feel as overgrown as those pictures make it look, starting with #1?

[G Jones]

I'm hesitant to criticise when I haven't been there myself, but it doesn't look particularly special.

I've noticed a few of these now in the lists... and it's not just the rest-of-world list. Princeville in Hawaii is the example I always use - it's 67th in America according to golf digest, yet it shouldn't be anywhere near the top 100. Put it side by side with Carmargo, Lehigh, Yale, Newport, and it is just crazy to say it is better.

Any it's not because these courses all have long histories (though they do)... or that they are in better condition (although they are), or that they aren't surrounded by horrible housing (although they aren't)... it's just that these are better courses architecturally, in addition to all of the above.

I'm convinced that the only reason Princeville is in there is it's scenic location and a token gesture to courses in far flung (well, relatively far flung) places.

Ok. Rant over...!

[Anthony Gray]

  The course looks like it has very little elivation change from the pics. I bet it was a challenge for the architect. Not alot to work with.

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

G Jones:  The Prince Course has the distinction of being VERY difficult, and I think that's why it's on the GOLF DIGEST list -- high marks for "Resistance to Scoring", plus half the panelists think "Shot Values" is another way of rewarding "hard".  (At least that is better than the GOLF DIGEST rankings of the 1970's, which ranked the original Princeville course in the top 100 partly as a Hawaii token, and partly because one of the founders had a vacation home there.)  The Prince is nowhere in the GOLF Magazine rankings, I don't know about GOLFWEEK.

Carl:  Wow, that is really heavily planted.  And to think The Jockey Club membership is proud of THEIR landscaping.  I guess Argentines just like trees.  A couple of years back a friend of ours was searching out dunes property in the south of Argentina, but the more time he spent in Buenos Aires, the more he became convinced that nobody there would play a Bandon Dunes - type course in the south -- too windy, too cold, not enough trees.

[G Jones]

Doak: I suspect you're right, which makes me suspicious as to exactly how the raters determine the rating.
Even if they mistake shot values for difficulty, I still find it hard to believe that anyone could rate Princeville that highly, unless their rating for GD consisted of a bunch of average princeville style courses. How many courses in the previous top 100 do you have to review to contribute to the ranking??

But then again, it can be a mistake to assume that everyone naturally has good taste. If they did, both the 80s (in general) and USA '99 Ryder Cup final day shirts (specifically) would never have happened...

[Carl Nichols]

Anthony:
I'd describe the site as gently rolling, which makes this the hilliest site I've seen in the Buenos Aires area (which is extremely flat).  As I mentioned, my camera doesn't capture the elevation changes very well -- not that there's a lot of it, but these pictures don't reflect the bit there is.

Bill, Tom:
My home course in the U.S. has a ton of trees and is very tight, so although Olivos is very heavily treed, it didn't feel that overtreed to me -- though it almost certainly is.  (At the very least, the trees could be thinned quite a bit.)  I mentioned in my post that the course requires the good player to work the ball quite a bit -- that's almost entirely because of the trees. 

Tom:
I think your friend made a good decision.  In addition to general economic issues that IMO would make it dicey to build a course here at all, Argentines (at least those who live in the Buenos Aires area) really don't like the cold -- and indeed have a very odd view of what's too cold.  Anything below about 65 degrees induces people to get out the winter jackets, hats, gloves, and scarves!  People look at me like I'm crazy when I'm playing golf on a 65 degree day without both a sweater and a jacket.   

PS:  According to a member, the Jockey Club is apparently undergoing some tree removal/pruning.  Hope to post some pics in a few days.

[Randy Thompson]

Having lived in Argentina for five years and worked constantly during eighteen years there and having a son that was born there, I really did not want to get involved in this post and tried not to but.. here goes
1st. I have played Olivos at least eight times and until I saw the pictures, could not remember a hole...so that should tell you something. There are eight to ten better test of golf throughout South America in my opinion but not with so much history. For whatever that is worth and apparently with golf digest...quite a bit!
2nd. Most of the courses in Argentina were built around the same time frame when it was a rich and thriving country, gualified architects were few and far in between but there did exsist some excellent landscapers and one in particular was involved in many of the better known courses(Tyess). As a result the courses take great pride in their trees and for most  part constitute the only design stragey and defense of the course. Some trees should and could be removed but for the most part you would need to incorporate more design startegy along with a strong tree removal program or you would just make some boring courses more boring.
3rd. As far history goes you had Dr. A.M desiging JOCKEY and his construction super staying on designing OLIVOS but both have had the the meldling hand of amerature club officials and national golf assiocation associates throughout sixty or seventy years. Olivios in particular goes through major changes every couple of years and in the pictures I see a lot of Jones bunker also that I do not recall from past visits, so I am sure they are new also and look pretty but out of character, so once again they seem to have taken the amerature route. I got a tour once of the Jockey club with an Argentine Golf association official about fifteen years ago showing the revamp of most of the bunker which they oversaw. Basically, there were tired of the washouts, and grass sodded most of the faces. When the tour finished he asked me, so what do you think...I have a fault and sometimes when I should keep my mouth shut for political reasons I can not..so I answered him...if your looking for a pat on the back for repainting Mona Lisa...look else where. Many of the steep sand faces have been restored and they put up with wash outs.
4th....Argentine are fair weather golfers..True...there are so few really cold nasty days..why bother..wait a day or too and you will have a pleasant enjoyable climate. In general..there not fanatics, die hard, golf purist by any means...its a social event for therm and they tend to enjoy life and see no need for unecessary suffering when there are other enjoyable social events to spend there time during the few nasty weather days.
5. Because of the above mentioned factors, a Bandon dunes course will never be economically profitable. UMMMM.. If your talking about four course like Bandon Dunes has..I agree...The dunes property is at least five hours away from your major golfing population of Buenos Aries and once again there not purist and most but not all, are happy with their parkland boring courses. But there a lot of fanatics that travel to the the US and Europe to experience what we all consider better golfing experiences. Is it enough to support an eighteen hole maintneance budget or drive a real estate project? In my opinion no if your targeting a 100% local market but yes if you can combine that with an International market. Argentina is in the midst or has a great ptential to become a future major golfing destination. Nicklaus is finishiung his 4th project in five years and has one that started and went kaput and has some other potential projects but I doubt they will get off the ground, Norman has three projects and has made a visit about six months ago and one has the potential to actually break ground but then again, i would not bet on it..Faldo has one...Gary player has one, will they go...ummmm ask them!! We are talking to three in the south alone and one I have made two visits to one of the projects and presales on lots have started, then another I will make my first visit to in ten days and look at potential routings and hopefully sign a prelimilary contract. Two million design fees and courses of ten to twenty million dollars onstruction budgets will have difficulty working into an overall sucessful buissness plan in Argentina but I doubt seriously if Bandon courses are anywhere near that range and sand hills was less then two million. So we will just have to wait and see but sooner or later there will be a dunes course in Argentina similar to what has become the fad at Bandon dunes and other parts of the world, that I would bet on,,,will it make money...ummm depends on the rest of the forrmula!!

[Carl Nichols]

Randy:
I agree with just about everything you say, and as someone with significant ties to Argentina (my son was also born here), it would be great if Argentina becomes a major golf destination in the future.  But a screwy government, very long distance to travel from Europe and the U.K., small local golfing base, etc., make it hard to be very optimistic.

[Randy Thompson]

Carl,
The goverment has always been screwy and yet tourism is and has been on the rapid rise for many years now. The strong Euro makes Argentina cheap for Europeans and tourism always seems to coinisde with how far your money goes. Brazil has had even screwier goverments but seem to have hit a home run in the last five years and I think finially the US has a winner,,,hopefully Argentina will follow and get lucky but thats asking a lot I know. But what potentials in future sites, has so many natural resourses, great wine and beef, great people, some of the best fishing in the world. At least the goverment problems are internal and do not effect tourism so much directly and they are cooperating on tax benifits and permitting and reduced import taxes for projects tied to the tourism market. They seem to live in crisis and yet find ways to move forward some how. God after what they went through eight years ago was it..its incredible that they still have a semi functioning banking system. Argentina=never a dull moment