[Mark Manuel]

The sixth hole at my club, Piqua CC Ohio, has a drop off  the left side of the fairway.  You end up in some rough and typically have 160-180 yards into the green that has a bunker on the front right side.  With the side hill lie the general consenus at the club is that you aim at the bunker and let the slope/side hill lie bring the ball back.  But, the slope is such that when aiming at the bunker you are hitting off an up hill lie and not a side hill lie so the ball typically flies straight into the bunker.  When you aim left of the bunker you are hitting off the side hill lie and now the ball hooks to the left of the green. 

Would an architect do this intentionally?  Is this part of the design process or just luck (good or bad depending on your point of view)?

[Kevin_Reilly]

But, the slope is such that when aiming at the bunker you are hitting off an up hill lie and not a side hill lie so the ball typically flies straight into the bunker. 

The conventional view is that it is common to pull or draw uphill lies, so your straight shot into the bunker is not typical, so I doubt any architect would have designed it so.

Any one of several items from a Google search on "uphill lie golf"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_2_54/ai_97200560/

[Garland Bayley]

...
Would an architect do this intentionally?  Is this part of the design process or just luck (good or bad depending on your point of view)?

Yes, some would. They will make you fight the stance to get the shot you want.

[Michael Dugger]

I think sometimes we attribute too much credit to architects based on the assumption they actually "thought through" the 15 million potential scenarios and outcomes of a particular feature.

When in reality a hung over shaper made that landform some blustery afternoon while listening to CCR.

[Garland Bayley]

I think sometimes we attribute too much credit to architects based on the assumption they actually "thought through" the 15 million potential scenarios and outcomes of a particular feature.

When in reality a hung over shaper made that landform some blustery afternoon while listening to CCR.

I think it is a good bet the architect has looked at the result, considered the options, and decided to keep or revise.

[Anthony Gray]

I think sometimes we attribute too much credit to architects based on the assumption they actually "thought through" the 15 million potential scenarios and outcomes of a particular feature.

When in reality a hung over shaper made that landform some blustery afternoon while listening to CCR.

  I wonder how often this results in great features being created. I would hope many. Those little random features are what add spice to design.

  Anthony

[Michael Dugger]

I think sometimes we attribute too much credit to architects based on the assumption they actually "thought through" the 15 million potential scenarios and outcomes of a particular feature.

When in reality a hung over shaper made that landform some blustery afternoon while listening to CCR.

I think it is a good bet the architect has looked at the result, considered the options, and decided to keep or revise.

And your belief is based on what, Garland?  You really think every little feature is mulled over?  It'd take 50 yrs to get a course built!

[Mike McGuire]

You end up in some rough .........

Sounds like off the tee  the right  is preferred, even with green side bunker on the right.

Are you saying you want an easy shot from the rough?

[Garland Bayley]

I think sometimes we attribute too much credit to architects based on the assumption they actually "thought through" the 15 million potential scenarios and outcomes of a particular feature.

When in reality a hung over shaper made that landform some blustery afternoon while listening to CCR.

I think it is a good bet the architect has looked at the result, considered the options, and decided to keep or revise.

And your belief is based on what, Garland?  You really think every little feature is mulled over?  It'd take 50 yrs to get a course built!

Based on reading The Seventh at St. Andrews and John Strawn's book about building the Arthur Hills course in Florida. In each case, the architect would show up and examine the work that had been done and either approve it or specify a rework. I'm not saying every little feature is "mulled over", but many are. Also, Tom Doak has noted how the slopes on either side of the fairway entering the tree gate at the tenth at Black Forest are such that they encourage ball movement in the opposite direction of what would be needed from there.

[Eric Smith]

Based on reading The Seventh at St. Andrews...

Speaking of which,  I noticed the author is gca's newest member.  Welcome Scott Gummer!

[Ben Sims]

I think sometimes we attribute too much credit to architects based on the assumption they actually "thought through" the 15 million potential scenarios and outcomes of a particular feature.

When in reality a hung over shaper made that landform some blustery afternoon while listening to CCR.

Right on Michael.  I love GCA as much as the next guy, but every little scenario can't be "designed" for.  I asked Mr. Doak here on the site not to long ago about the deep bunker just left of the green on 14 at PD.  I was joking about how tough it was, blah blah blah.  He says that that particular bunker is 3 feet deeper today than it was when they built it.  The wind just eats it alive.  Now, I'm no wind tunnel expert and I doubt the guys at Renaissance are either, but I 'm sure they know which bunkers are exposed and which ones aren't.  Either way, I'm sure no one could've accounted for the way that bunker has ended up.  I am sure there are many small features and possibilities--especially on members courses--that the architects don't see or get to experience.   

[Mark Manuel]

Mike,

What adds to the difficulty of this hole is that there is water right and center.  Your bail out zone is the left side and the slope just grabs everything.

I have always thought it was a poorly designed hole because you have few options and the miss off the tee puts you on this slope with almost no shot for the average player.

I appreciate all the answers, interesting stuff.

Mark

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