[Gib_Papazian]

Mike,

In my view, whether the decisions were made by the club, Bill Love, Pat Finlen or Zippy the Pinhead is irrelevant. My comments above are confined to the finished product and as a member I stand by my criticisms.

My belief is that the long green-to-tee walk, ugly cartpath and proportionality of the entire arrangement is never going to look right - even with time. Observers can make their own determinations, but that is mine.

The reason I jumped back into this thread is to express my astonishment at how that anybody who has been around Olympic for any length of time can possibly characterize the structure of the club as "democratic."

There is now - and has always been - a small group of men who maintain a stranglehold over the club, continually recycling themselves (and coterie of like-minded satellites within their orbit) between the GC and the Board.

Joel has every damned right to express his opinion because he is a member and did an enormous amount of work and research before the first thimble of dirt was moved.

Part of that research was demonstrating where many of the "lost fairway bunkers" were located - information largely ignored. I depart from Joel insofar as assigning blame (or credit) solely to Bill Love and Pat Finlen. This was a collaborative effort including - and especially - a group we outsiders derisively refer to as "the owners."

The truth is that Olympic's architecture does not possess a blue-blooded pedigree like Little Lord Fauntleroy and his empty clubhouse on the other side of Lake Merced.

It is my opinion that the key reason the golf course is held in such high regard is the reverse-camber fairways and clever routing that tumbles down the leeward side of the hill.

The putting surfaces have been changed so many times that I do not think we have the ability to bring it back to a specific point in time (like Karl Olson did at NGLA). I am not sure if we even want to - although I would be in favor of restoring that wonderful swale in the 8th green. There are certainly treasures of information hidden in the club archives, but our historian believes it his birthright to stand guard at the portals and make certain plebians (like me) never gain full access.

In the interest of disclosure, I had a discussion with Bill Love and came away with the impression that he sees the incredible potential of the Lake Course (and Ocean), but has convinced himself he needs to walk on eggshells.

We needed to take a close look at the golf course as a whole and bring in somebody like Mike DeVries or Neal Meagher (because he would obsess over every detail) and maximize what we have.

The Lake Course is not a sacrosanct religious shrine like Shinnecock Hills or Muirfield. If we are going to start to push dirt around, it would be best to preserve the best of the golf course, restore what has been lost (where it makes sense) and then move forward with changes towards improvement.

We pulled up the horse in mid-leap and like most acts of tepidity, the result is failure. Does that make it “vandalism?” No, because vandalism is a deliberate act with intent to deface or destroy.

This is more an act of institutionalized cowardice and visionless leadership. If anyone is to be charged with a crime, it is those who limited what was possible by their preconceived notions about what was “doable.”

Piecemeal construction rarely works in any art form.

[Joel_Stewart]

I’ll keep this short because the pictures speak for themselves.

It does get interesting with Gerry making comments since he is the only member here with any intimate knowledge of the situation.  Gerry Stratford is a great guy and respected member.  He’s spewing the company line and trying to put a good face on an ugly situation that was predicted and could have been avoided.   Gerry tried to be the nice guy, voice of reason and was the only person on the green committee who asked questions.  He was also the only person that didn’t rubber stamp everything that Finlen asked.  Sadly his nice guy approach failed.

I will also dispute Gerry’s claim to give it time as it will improve. The look and how it lays on the ground  within this classic site is unmistakably bad.   The only thing time will heal is people tend to forget.

I have a much different feeling about “unconscionable” then Gerry and all you have to do is look at the pictures.  It’s easy to attack me for calling out the process and the guilty individuals but its far less serious then desecrating a historic golf course with incompetent individuals.  If you want to look at unconscionable, then look at Steve Meeker, the former board member then green chairman and now chairman of the 2012 Open who is one of the recycled individuals Gib mentions and is the single most responsible member to allow this travesty to occur. He like the rest of the committee could not say NO.

As I said on another thread, Bill Love needs a paycheck and does exactly what he is told.  Calling Bill Love a respected industry professional?  What has Bill Love done that is respected?  Bill Love is a very nice person but is a landscape architect who believes that translates into golf course architecture.  It has always been my argument that Mr. Love was not qualified to work at Olympic based on the following reasons;

1.   He has never worked on any top 100 classic courses performing restorations.
2.   He is not being retained by any other classic top 100 caliber clubs.
3.   His biography on the ASGCA web site (he doesn’t have his own web site) lists 2 courses in which he has been involved   in   renovations, not restorations.
4.   In over 20 years, with Ault & Clark or on his own he has never designed any course receiving national acclaim, such as a top 100 status.
5.   His small work performed on the 4th hole on the Cliffs course, 8th on Lake and work on the Ocean course is terrible.

As I have stated here previously, Mr. Love has a 20 year relationship with Pat Finlen (they worked together on a course in Kansas City) and was given the job over far more qualified and knowledgeable restoration architects.  It was just dirty politics and I don’t consider that an ingredient of a “respected industry professional”.   If the previous green chairman (Mr. Meeker) stayed with his original choice, Olympic would have been restored to one of the great golf courses in the world.

[Carl Nichols]

4.   In over 20 years, with Ault & Clark or on his own he has never designed any course receiving national acclaim, such as a top 100 status.

In one of these Olympic threads, in an attempt to be funny I said that the new cartpaths looked like Bill Love's interpretation of an Ault-Clark design, and could've used any number of names that IMHO don't do a great job with cartpath placement. ..... I had no idea Bill Love worked at Ault-Clark.

[Mike Sweeney]

Joel has every damned right to express his opinion because he is a member and did an enormous amount of work and research before the first thimble of dirt was moved.

Gib,

I understand and agree with 95+% of your post. The cronies run the NYAC, Olympic and many clubs. However in the words of Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, but NOT their own facts." Finally, 3-4 days later Joel acknowledges the Green Committee was involved. 

We had real vandalism 4-5 years ago at Hidden Creek when vandals put Roundup or similar on 8 greens on the back in the middle of the night and the greens were closed for months. During the start-up of a club, it could have been very bad. They got through it.

Portraying the Super and Architect in this way on GCA was inappropriate at best.

[Andrew Cunningham]

Short, but not easy.  For some reason I'm not looking forward to playing the new one.

[Kalen Braley]

I guess my question would be...what was so offensive, wrong, or un-US Open like with the previous version of #8 that it needed changing?

Thats the part that I'm not getting at the moment.

[Gib_Papazian]

There I was, my droogies, finally having a little bit of the old "in out"* with the Lake Course, when I arrived at the 7th tee this very morning I tell you. There is sometimes an enormous difference between seeing and playing, so I wanted to give it a chance and not continue to recite my didactic spew without actually "having a go."

Okay, I have officially advanced my pellet along the new corridors and am seated here trying hard not to air our dirty laundry in public. We at Olympic are a family and Joel has, at times, been characterized as an unreasonable crank and even an assh*le. In the interest of full disclosure, Joel is my friend and while I do not always agree with his forceful opinions (like I am one to talk) there has never been a single moment when - even in disagreement - that I could not fully understand his perspective.

OHMYGAWD IN HEAVEN IS HE RIGHT THIS TIME.  

Given the inescapable fact that I am also an opinionated sot, there is no reason to believe our egos would somehow share the same analysis of the new work. Frankly, although we talk on the phone frequently, we have not reviewed a new golf course together more than three times.

So I went into this morning with open eyes and open heart. I WANT the new work to be wonderful (like Cal Club). Those private e-mails I've received pointing out my nature as a congenital contrarian - and opining that perhaps I relish the opportunity to spew a series of criticisms and throw eggs because I was not involved in the process are rendered bullshit.

For those of you who fill my e-mail with invective, let me point out that to join in a chorus criticism is tantamount to cheering the sprout of a nasty wart on the nose your wife. The natural reaction is to defend the home port and somehow soft-pedal excuses for the final product.

There is no possible excuse for his madness. It plays just as I thought - a series of disparate elements (some good and some not) enjoined as one would expect on a cart-ball track.

MY WIFE HAS A DAMNED HERPES WART ON HER NOSE!

First off, the right side of the 7th fairway is an arbitrary rough line, punctuated by a couple of trees placed in a spot that - even after they have grown - will only affect the play of those who have vomited a duck-slice so far right that players will be more likely to find Bambi than the ball.

The putting surface is okay. Nothing special - in similar fashion to what we had before in the early 70's - but there we have the nauseating result of whiny cowardice. Now, I am going to admit that the 8th hole came out very well. I like it. Unfortunately, just not in context of anything else that comes before it or going forward.

It was a 160 YARD UPHILL WALK FROM THE PIN ON #7 TO THE BLUE TEE ON #8.

Yes, taken as individual elements, everything looks marginally acceptable given the complete lack of vision displayed by the monkeys issued a gun and a badge. However, only a cartball knucklehead would have approved something this completely obtuse at a club that not only encourages walkers, but takes pride about crowing about their "athletic club roots."

I'd like to amend my snotosity about playing the white tees on #8. I pledge to simply walk off the 7th green directly to the 9th tee, skip this complete failure and try to forget my club had an affair with a interloping harlot.

Let us never speak of it again.  

*Clockwork Orange reference to those uninitiated to the 2nd best movie ever made.

[David_Tepper]

Gib -

To the best of my knowledge, the changes that were made to the 7th & 8th holes on the Lake Course course this past winter had been proposed and contemplated for at least 10 or 15 years. Am I correct in saying that?

DT

[Kyle Henderson]

Somehow your metaphors make the changes sound fairly appealing.

There I was, my droogies, finally having a little bit of the old "in out"* with the Lake Course, when I arrived at the 7th tee this very morning I tell you. There is sometimes an enormous difference between seeing and playing, so I wanted to give it a chance and not continue to recite my didactic spew without actually "having a go."

Okay, I have officially advanced my pellet along the new corridors and am seated here trying hard not to air our dirty laundry in public. We at Olympic are a family and Joel has, at times, been characterized as an unreasonable crank and even an assh*le. In the interest of full disclosure, Joel is my friend and while I do not always agree with his forceful opinions (like I am one to talk) there has never been a single moment when - even in disagreement - that I could not fully understand his perspective.

OHMYGAWD IN HEAVEN IS HE RIGHT THIS TIME.  

Given the inescapable fact that I am also an opinionated sot, there is no reason to believe our egos would somehow share the same analysis of the new work. Frankly, although we talk on the phone frequently, we have not reviewed a new golf course together more than three times.

So I went into this morning with open eyes and open heart. I WANT the new work to be wonderful (like Cal Club). Those private e-mails I've received pointing out my nature as a congenital contrarian - and opining that perhaps I my secret desire is to relish the opportunity to spew a series of criticisms and throw eggs because I was not involved in the process are rendered bullshit.

For those of you who fill my e-mail with invective, let me point out that to join in a chorus criticism is tantamount to cheering the sprout of a nasty wart on the nose your wife. The natural reaction is to defend the home port and somehow soft-pedal excuses for the final product.

There is no possible excuse for his madness. It plays just as I thought - a series of disparate elements (some good and some not) enjoined as one would expect on a cart-ball track.

MY WIFE HAS A DAMNED HERPES WART ON HER NOSE!

First off, the right side of the 7th fairway is an arbitrary rough line, punctuated by a couple of trees placed in a spot that - even after they have grown - will only affect the play of those who have vomited a duck-slice so far right that players will be more likely to find Bambi than the ball.

The putting surface is okay. Nothing special - in similar fashion to what we had before in the early 70's - but there we have the nauseating result of whiny cowardice. Now, I am going to admit that the 8th hole came out very well. I like it. Unfortunately, just not in context of anything else that comes before it or going forward.

It was a 160 YARD UPHILL WALK FROM THE PIN ON #7 TO THE BLUE TEE ON #8.

Yes, taken as individual elements, everything looks marginally acceptable given the complete lack of vision displayed by the monkeys issued a gun and a badge. However, only a cartball knucklehead would have approved something this completely obtuse at a club that not only encourages walkers, but takes pride about crowing about their "athletic club roots."

I'd like to amend my snotosity about playing the white tees on #8. I pledge to simply walk off the 7th green directly to the 9th tee, skip this complete failure and try to forget my club had an affair with a interloping harlot.

Let us never speak of it again.  

*Clockwork Orange reference to those uninitiated to the 2nd best movie ever made.

[Matt_Cohn]

Thought I'd put in my two cents here as I played the Lake today for the first time since the recent changes.

First, the course overall looks great. The greens aren't up to full speed yet but look great as do the green surrounds.

The new tees over the past 3 years - on 2, 3, 5, 6 and 12 - along with the additional length on 7 and 8 make a big difference. Basically 8 of the first 12 holes are par-4's of 440ish or longer, and two of those other four holes are 200+ yard par-3's. Olympic has always been hard for every reason except length. Well, now it has length, too.

I really liked the new holes. On #7 it's quite tough to tell that the green has been moved. If nobody told me, I would have thought they just redesigned the green in the same place. The new green fits in better with the rest of the course - it's pretty similar to #11 in a lot of ways. It's probably a slightly easier green that the old one because the individual tiers are larger, although there's still plenty of slope to make things tough. The right rough is a bit open but I didn't see that as a problem. If you're there you have a bad view of the green and less control over your wedge shot anyway; it's not a severe penalty but certainly isn't desirable.

I was fully prepared to not like the 8th, but I thought it was excellent. It's a better looking hole than the old one. I was a defender of the old 8th hole as unique and special, particularly for its setting - I mean, the hole itself was just a 140 yard shot over a bunker, at least in its recent form - but the setting on the new 8th is just as good and I think it's a better hole overall. There's always still the option to play it as a 140 yard uphill shot from the front tee, but also the option to play it at 215 and make it a full-length, challenging hole. I can see why some people preferred the old hole, but I think the only significant knock on the new hole, if you were a fan of the old one, is that it's not the old one. As a stand-alone par-3, it's really good. I can't think of a change I would want to make to the current hole, although I didn't get to study the green in detail as there was a group behind us.

Admittedly it's not ideal to finish #7 and walk 100-something yards to the 8th tee, and the cartpath isn't great. I'm not ignoring them, but they just seem like secondary things to me compared to the quality of the hole itself, which I think is excellent.

There was never anything "wrong" with #7 or #8, and maybe just the minor issue of #7 being the only hole on the course with a three-tiered green. Neither hole needed to be changed. But are they both a little better now than they were a year ago? I say yes.

[Mike Benham]

Bump ...

[Gib_Papazian]

Matt,

Thank you so much for scraping off the scabs, rubbing salt in the wounds of those whose tastes ascend beyond the difference between Charles Blair and Ronald Macdonald.

Your aesthetically vacant evaluation of the ham-handed graffiti on our beloved shrine comes off as the same sort of apologist, deceitful claptrap that a cartball muffinhead would use to justify Fazio rerouting a golf course so that walkers need a Sherpa, K-rations and a compass to find the next tee.

The entire arrangement is a pile of elephant diarrhea - as if the appropriate removal of trees somehow ameliorates the complete dismantling of the flow and religious Feng Shui of the golf course. We have prostituted ourselves at the altar of lesser intellects who worship at the shrine of fad and fashion.

Once you defecate in your bedroom sink, the water in your nighttime glass never looks quite as pure. You cannot "unhear" blasphemy any easier than you can "unsee" a child being abused. The golf course now has 17 holes and a black sheep to be ignored.    

    

[Ian Larson]

Is there a connection between the previous superintendent and Wolf Creek?

[Jim Nugent]

Will someone else who has played the new Olympic make similar approving statements about it, like Matt Cohn did?

Anything to get more posts from Gib like his last one. 

[tlavin]

Matt,

Thank you so much for scraping off the scabs, rubbing salt in the wounds of those whose tastes ascend beyond knowing the difference between Charles Blair and Ronald Macdonald.

Your aesthetically vacant evaluation of the ham-handed graffiti on our beloved shrine comes off as the same sort of apologist, deceitful claptrap that a cartball muffinhead would use to justify Fazio rerouting a golf course so that walkers need a Sherpa, K-rations and a compass to find the next tee.

The entire arrangement is a pile of elephant diarrhea - as if the appropriate removal of trees somehow ameliorates the complete dismantling of the flow and religious Feng Shui of the golf course. We have prostituted ourselves at the altar of lesser intellects who worship at the shrine of fad and fashion.

Once you defecate in your bedroom sink, the water in your nighttime glass never looks quite as pure. You cannot "unhear" blasphemy any easier than you can "unsee" a child being abused. The golf course now has 17 holes and a black sheep to be ignored.    

    

I stand in awe of this withering missive.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I would like to commend Joel on the history layed out here as well as the passion he has for the Lake course. David i agree with your thoughts as well. As always Gib nailed a not discussed point of the cart paths and walk. I have played the Lake a number of times post opening. I really like the 8th,15th and 18th work. I think with time the 8th will grow in stature as the photo spot and favorite of players. I said in the initial post how much I liked it and had mixed feelings on the 7th green complex. I said then it is a very good hole green complex but is replacing one of the best in the game for a driveable par 4. Gib is on point about the history of the green complexes. And the routing combined with the strong par 4's with reverse cantor fairways is what makes the course special in the eyes of golf. Nothiwithstanding that comment i think for the most part a very good job was done by one and all associated on the greens as well as the whole project.

[Rob Rigg]

Thanks Tiger - Now we need Gib to come back over the top with some commentary that includes a reference to some sort of animal fesces - this is a great thread - love the passion!

[Carl Nichols]

How long was the prior walk from 7 green to 8 tee? 

[Bill_McBride]

I have only played the Lakeside course once, and it was not long ago, but before the recent work.  I can't comment on the new holes since I haven't seen them, but the mere idea of inserting a 100-150 yard walk from 7th green to 8th tee is blasphemous.  That is such a classic walk, classic routing with tees close to previous greens, that creating such a long walk is a bad thing.  I can understand Gib's wondrous rants just from that perspective.  If I were a member I'd be pissed.

It's like a breath of fresh air having Gib back on this board.  Thanks for sharing.  

[Bill_McBride]

How long was the prior walk from 7 green to 8 tee? 

20-30 yards.  And a lovely hole with the clubhouse right behind the elevated green.

[Carl Nichols]

Thanks Bill.  I've played the course 2 times, but couldn't remember that particular walk. 

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks Bill.  I've played the course 2 times, but couldn't remember that particular walk. 

it wouldn't stand out in your memory, except maybe for the view of the clubhouse, because it used to be quite similar to every other green-to-tee walk on the course.

[Peter Wagner]

Matt,

Thank you so much for scraping off the scabs, rubbing salt in the wounds of those whose tastes ascend beyond the difference between Charles Blair and Ronald Macdonald.

Your aesthetically vacant evaluation of the ham-handed graffiti on our beloved shrine comes off as the same sort of apologist, deceitful claptrap that a cartball muffinhead would use to justify Fazio rerouting a golf course so that walkers need a Sherpa, K-rations and a compass to find the next tee.

The entire arrangement is a pile of elephant diarrhea - as if the appropriate removal of trees somehow ameliorates the complete dismantling of the flow and religious Feng Shui of the golf course. We have prostituted ourselves at the altar of lesser intellects who worship at the shrine of fad and fashion.

Once you defecate in your bedroom sink, the water in your nighttime glass never looks quite as pure. You cannot "unhear" blasphemy any easier than you can "unsee" a child being abused. The golf course now has 17 holes and a black sheep to be ignored.    

    

Post the Year nomination!


Gib,

If it's true that a small group runs OC by swapping themselves between committees and the Board then it is only because the rank and file allow it.  If you disagree with their agenda then you and 150 like-minded members need to vote in a new slate and make things as you want them.

All my 2 cents with zero knowledge of anything to do with OC.

- Peter

[Matt_Cohn]

Old walk from 7 to 8 was probably 60 yards. Only other longish walk on course is from 11 to 12, which backtracks 80-100 yards to the normal tees (and about 150 to the new back tees that nobody really plays).

[JLahrman]

Will someone else who has played the new Olympic make similar approving statements about it, like Matt Cohn did?

Anything to get more posts from Gib like his last one.  

Sure.  I never played the old #8 and so I don't have any comparison point.  But my experience sounds simliar to Mr. Cohn's.  Based on what I had read here I was also prepared to not like the hole.  I liked the hole when I played it, it's not the best hole on the course but I wouldn't call it a black sheep or elephant diarrhea either (although perhaps the elephant diarrhea comment was meant more about the logistics as opposed to the architecture of the hole).  The cart path and walk from the 7th green is a shame but I thought it was by far the worst part about the current 7th & 8th holes.

Perhaps it's a social norm issue, just like I didn't think Forrest Gump was that good after waiting until 1,000 people had seen it before me and told me how great it was.

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