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Joel_Stewart

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2009, 07:00:19 PM »


I know 3 full OC members who quite like the changes.

They have all been members for 40 or so years.

They voted for the changes.

There was no vote so you have your facts wrong.  There was a meeting late last year and members could speak on the situation but thats it.

Jed Peters

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2009, 07:10:19 PM »


I know 3 full OC members who quite like the changes.

They have all been members for 40 or so years.

They voted for the changes.

There was no vote so you have your facts wrong.  There was a meeting late last year and members could speak on the situation but thats it.

I guess I do have my facts wrong. I believe that at least two of them did speak on the changes, however.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2009, 10:15:15 PM »

I REALLY liked the old #8, because I only played it once in my life and hit 8 iron to about 6 feet.  ;D

Do NOT ask about the putt.   :-X



Looky what I found ...







Sometimes 8' will be remembered as 6'  ;)

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2009, 10:29:25 PM »
The walkways in the photo from 1920 are a wicked eyesore.


 ??? I don't see any walkways there am I missing something?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Mike Sweeney

Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2009, 05:33:43 AM »
There was a meeting late last year and members could speak on the situation but thats it.

Joel,

Did you attend the meeting? What happened at the meeting?

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2009, 10:54:25 AM »
Yes I attended as well as Kevin and Gib.  I would estimate maybe 200 members attended.

The purpose was to get member reaction and input on two items.

1) Rebuilding all the greens to bent.
2) Changing #7 and #8.

It was 100% agreement that the greens needed to be fixed.  There was some objection to building the greens USGA spec since they are already in a sand base and the course has never had a drainage problem but the super insisted and Bill Love whose knowledge is quite limited also wanted USGA spec.

There was a lot of discussion on changing #7 and #8.  One member brought Pepers book of the greatest 500 holes in golf and held it up saying why change #7.  Another member who has won the club champion numerous times and played in the Amateur a few years ago at Olympic said he heard a lot of players complaining about the 7th green.  I felt that had some influence.

Another older member asked for another opinion from another architect.  I 2nd that and was joined by two other members.  It was denied by the green committee chairman, saying Bill Love was the architect.

Although they said they would listen to members comments very carefully, they later passed the superintendents suggestions 100%.  The fix was in.

They did find the members objected to the collars around the bunkers which the super thought looked great.  He has since eliminated those collars.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2009, 11:35:00 AM »
Joel,

I may have mentioned to you that Lake was among the first group of great courses I played (back around '79 or '80) and remains a favorite (at least as of 5-6 years ago, when I played it last).  Given all the changes, some positive such as the tree removal which you probably supported, do you believe that the playing characterisitcs of the course have been sacrificed?  Are most of the members satisfied with the changes and the direction of the club?  Has there been an abnormal number of resignations and the waiting list whittled down?  Are you still a member?

I just don't understand how an employee of the club seems to have amassed the sort of power you describe unless he is being responsive to the power centers of the membership.  My impression of Olympic is that it has a long history of being highly active, open, and relatively democratic.  That one individual can be allowed to cause the harm you suggest just doesn't make sense.   Maybe things will swing back eventually.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2009, 01:27:18 PM »
Joel, interesting presentation and discussion, thanks.

It's been a while since I played the Lake Course, but I always liked #7 and #8 for the perhaps simple-minded reason that they offered a welcome break from the long progression of difficult par 4s--4.5.6, and 9, 10, 11, 12.  Most of us would  have mid-irons or more in our hands to approach all but 12--on good driving days.  I looked forward to the prospect of two quick short holes before getting back to business.  Of course, the short holes could do some damage to those expecting pushovers--all the better and more interesting.

With the new 8th at 200yds, plus the long walk from 7 green to 8 tee, its seems that aspect of the routing is lost.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2009, 01:35:08 PM »
ET -

My guess is the new 8th hole will play between 150-180 yards from the white & blue tees 98% of the time.
The 7th hole is only 15-20 yards longer than it used to be.

DT

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2009, 02:49:33 PM »
Joel,

Just to make sure you're citing the correct person......by "superintendent" do you mean the superintendent of the Lake Course or the Director of Golf Course Maintenance? For those who may not know, Olympic has what we would all call a superintendent plus assistants for each of Lake and Ocean courses, as well as a Director of GCM who oversees them and everything greens & grounds maintenance related.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2009, 05:20:07 PM »
ET -

My guess is the new 8th hole will play between 150-180 yards from the white & blue tees 98% of the time.
The 7th hole is only 15-20 yards longer than it used to be.

DT

David -

the card has the blue tees as 169.   When I played it last week, it was 175.  Plus it's uphill.  That's a 4I for me.  It would be great if it were 15-20 yards less, which would provide a distance in between the shorter #15 and the longer #3 and #13.

David_Tepper

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2009, 05:24:46 PM »
Wayne -

How much of the flagstick can you see from the blue tee? Can you see where your shot has landed on the green? Is there still some element of blindness to the hole?

DT

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2009, 05:38:20 PM »
Wayne -

How much of the flagstick can you see from the blue tee? Can you see where your shot has landed on the green? Is there still some element of blindness to the hole?

DT

David -

I recall that the entire flagstick was visible in the location we played that day (back and right) and the distance to the pin was nearly 180 (which is more like a 3I uphill for me).  The only location that provides a blind aspect would be back-left, where there's more room than one sees from the tee.

I posted on one of the other threads that I wish we played the hole slightly shorter, as well as having the front of the green raised up just a hair to provide some of that blindness.

Gerry Stratford

Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2009, 07:05:41 PM »
Where does one begin when so much misinformation is asserted?
A full presentation of the proposed changes was made to the membership at a meeting to which all were invited.
The Green Committee which includes some members who have played the courses at Olympic for more than fifty years spent nearly a full year in conversation with the architect and the Green staff. They interviewed countless members, including Mr Stewart, and they consulted hundreds of historical photographs. The final decision, by the Board of Directors, was made after reviewing the recommendations of the Green Committee and input from the membership.

Some points need to be made:
The decision to modify the eighth hole at this time (recommendations for such a modification have been made by numerous architects and critics over the last forty years) was made because the replacement of all greens made the construction convenient. The design was not influenced in consideration of the upcoming US Open, other than a concern that the Bent grass conversion needed to take place well in advance of that event.
The re-design of the eighth hole was not influenced by changes proposed for the seventh, but rather the changes to the eighth once agreed to made it possible to consider possible changes to the seventh green and the ninth tee.
The change of the seventh green to a two tier layout from the tight three tier configuration was actually restorative! The third tier had been added not that many years ago, and as Mr Stewart acknowledges, the three tier arrangement was frequently criticized by players not least distinguished of which was multi-time champion Randy Haag.
While it is true that length has been added to several of the course's par threes over the last few years, the tee complexes have been designed to allow significant variation in tee position. Thus, from day to day a hole's length might change by as much as thirty yards, and in a multi day tournament such as the Club Championship one might find these holes calling for very different club selections.
It can actually be argued that Willie Watson and early Green Keeper Sam Whiting would have used the routing now built if they could have moved dirt as effortlessly as modern equipment allows.
Finally, for Mr Stewart to demean the ability and qualifications of respected industry professionals in an off handed manner is unconscionable. Mr Love consistently displayed respect for the integrity of the Lake golf course spending countless hours with our Club historian, Pat Finlen has been honored by his peers and by the California Golf Writers for his contributions to agronomy, and Frontier has done remarkable work throughout the United States in restoring classic golf courses. In particular, they were chosen for this project because of their extensive experience and expertise in GPS measurement and restoration of contours (something absolutely vital in our effort to maintain slope integrity when reconstructing our greens).
As President of the Donald Ross Society, I might be expected to hold fast for tradition and turn a cold eye on renovation as opposed to restoration, but my primary focus is on design philosophy and strategic intent as opposed to blind adherence to old measurements. The old that is strong may not whither, but not all that is old should be worshipped.
I hope that all of you, including Mr Stewart, have a chance to play these holes in the context of a full round and suggest that until you have done so, you might reserve judgement.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2009, 07:21:06 PM »
"off handed"  is not an adjective I would use to describe Joel Stewart.

Beyond that I don't know enough to comment. 

Mike Jansen

Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2009, 07:50:58 PM »
I played the Lake probably a year ago... and after all of the long difficult holes, and the wicked 3 tier green on the short ("easy" I thought) par 4 7th, the 8th hole was a nice little break.  A short par 3 that allowed you to catch your breath before you back at another stretch of long demanding holes. 

I know several members who are very involved in the work, and (of course) they are very happy with the changes.

Having the opportunity to play Pebble on a regular basis, I have seen how the monster that is the USGA has come in and made changes to something that wasn't broken.  Lengthening a course is not that big of deal, but when you start changing/ moving bunkers, that b.s.

Gerry Stratford

Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2009, 08:04:03 PM »
To be absolutely clear:
The USGA does not have a seat on the Olympic Green Committee nor on the Board of Directors!

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2009, 08:42:19 PM »
It can actually be argued that Willie Watson and early Green Keeper Sam Whiting would have used the routing now built if they could have moved dirt as effortlessly as modern equipment allows.

What would be that argument?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2009, 10:23:32 PM »
Wayne W. -

I have faulted the Lake Course in the past for having 3 of the 4 par-3's being totally blind shots. On that basis, I have no problem with #8 ceasing to be a blind shot.

DT

Jim Nugent

Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2009, 11:58:09 PM »
Where does one begin when so much misinformation is asserted?


What is the misinformation?  From what you said, sounds more like interpretation. 

Mike Sweeney

Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2009, 06:32:44 AM »
Where does one begin when so much misinformation is asserted?


What is the misinformation?  From what you said, sounds more like interpretation. 

Joel said:
Now the hole is gone, bulldozed by a superintendent and his personal friend, a golf architect, seeking more length for one week in June 2012 when the club hosts its 5th U.S. Open.


Gerry said:
A full presentation of the proposed changes was made to the membership at a meeting to which all were invited. The Green Committee which includes some members who have played the courses at Olympic for more than fifty years spent nearly a full year in conversation with the architect and the Green staff. They interviewed countless members, including Mr Stewart, and they consulted hundreds of historical photographs. The final decision, by the Board of Directors, was made after reviewing the recommendations of the Green Committee and input from the membership.


Jim,

I have never even played Olympic, only took a tour of the golf course one day. However, I know the club pretty well via its relationship with the NY Athletic Club. To single out the Super and Architect and use the suggestive word of "vandalism", well Gerry was being generous by saying "misinformation".

The same sort of stuff occurred on Merion threads back in the day when they Fazio and the contractor did the bunker work (land swap threads have replaced bunker work threads). If Joel wants to call the work bad, that is what GCA.com is for. However, to present it as a "fix" by two individuals at a huge democratic club like Olympic is not what GCA.com should be used for.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 06:36:29 AM by Mike Sweeney »

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2009, 10:20:07 AM »
If Joel wants to call the work bad, that is what GCA.com is for. However, to present it as a "fix" by two individuals at a huge democratic club like Olympic is not what GCA.com should be used for.

I agree whole-heartedly with this statement. Luckily, due to the caliber of individuals that make up this site's discussion group, I think Mr. Stewart's excellent research and description of the historical changes to the 8th is being overshadowed by those who care greatly about integrity exposing his unfortunate desire to assert personal attacks on certain individuals in an inappropriate forum.

Sad, too, because I largely agree with Mr. Stewart as I have said above. I do enjoy the look and description of the old 8th far more than the current. But as a superintendent who personally knows the character and integrity of the Director of GCM at Olympic, his placing of the blame on Mr Finlen turns me off to both his opnions and his post.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2009, 12:36:18 PM »
What is the misinformation?  From what you said, sounds more like interpretation. 

The chain of events in this paragraph is not correct:

Quote
Today’s alteration of the Lake’s 8th really began in 2008, with the 7th green. The course superintendent convinced club officials to extend the 7th and raze the historic three tier green (described as one of the top 500 holes in the world) in preparation for the 2012 US Open.  One move begat another, and forced changes to the 8th.

This is how it appears that Joel sees it:

1.  Superintendent wants to extend 7th hole by 18 yds.
2.  Since we are moving the 7th green, let's change it to a two-tier green because the superintendent dislikes the "historic" (KR - early 70's...that's 1970's) three-tier green.  Or perhaps the superintendent is incapable of building a three-tier green under USGA specs (Joel has previously made this statement).
3.  Since #1 and #2 aren't possible because there is the 8th hole in the way, we are now forced to move the 8th hole.

I've used similar logic when justifying a new set of clubs to my wife ("The grip on this driver is a bit worn, so I need to get rid of it and buy another one, and since I'm changing the driver I need to get a new putter because I'll be putting for birdie more often, and I'll need new irons because their grips won't match the grip on my new driver") but the notion that changes to #7 begot the new #8 doesn't reflect reality.

While we're at it, we might as well link Ron Whitten in to this decision/conspiracy...he disliked the "historic" green on 7 also:

Worst of the Best

Maybe the Philly detectives can check United flight records to see if RW was in San Francisco early last year.   :)
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2009, 02:21:11 PM »
Kevin Reilly,

Well, Joel and Gib are on the record unequivocally on the changes.  Care to provide your impressions?  Is Olympic Lake a better course today than it was when it held the US Open last?  With a long history of changes, do the most current take away from the course?

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2009, 02:50:17 PM »
Lou, I gave my opinions on another thread following my round on the re-opened course.   To summarize:  I like the change to #7, but the hole would benefit from some challenge on the drive, as the horrible mounds were removed from the right side but the trees that replaced them are not a concern off the tee now.  The cartpath transition from 7 to 8 is "a pity".

#8 is now at least half a stroke harder than it was previously.  It averaged 3.13 strokes in the '07 Amateur, and I would say the hole is now more difficult than #13 which averaged 3.53 strokes.  The prevailing wind into your face has a big effect on the shot - it felt more exposed to the wind than before.  The green is not blind but it is still an uphill hole.  I played from the blue tee at 169.

The horrific green at #15 has been eliminated - it now is more like its old version, though the fronting bunker is not as imposing as in the old days.

Comments about the course right now need a small * because the greens are very slow as the bent is still developing.  Green contours are hard to evaluate at these speeds, though you can see in my pictures of #7 that there is movement in each of the two tiers.

I am not a fan of the tee boxes on #5 and #12...I think it is overkill in terms of size/numbers.  If back-back tees are needed, they should be done in a subtle manner.  I agree with Gib's comments about needed an ambiance-enhancer (my words) as you walk to the back tees on #2, 5 and 12.

Here are some pictures I took of 7 and 8...the first picture is taken from the 4th tee.

Picasa pictures of 7 and 8
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 03:18:19 PM by Kevin_Reilly »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

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