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Joel_Stewart

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Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« on: June 08, 2009, 04:57:11 PM »
THE CHANGES AT OLYMPIC LAKE’S 8th HOLE:
PROGRESS OR VANDALISM?


The Olympic Club is Americas oldest athletic club formed in 1860.  From Payne Stewart’s never-ending putt on 18 in 1998, to Ben Hogan’s and Arnold Palmers slip, it has been the scene of history and controversy.

Now, the famed club faces controversy, again, with the redesign of its 7th and 8th holes. 

The famed course has lost some of its persona.  Its standing with all three major magazines has fallen.  It once ranked 10th best course in America with Golf Digest, now it ranks 26th.  Golf Magazine once placed it 23rd best in the world, now it ranks 45th.

The course has undergone multiple changes since it merged with Lakeside Country Club in 1922, including a major remodel by architect Sam Whiting in 1927. Numerous tweaks, namely changes by Robert Trent Jones prior to the 1955 US Open and again with Jones prior to the 1966 Open began a trend at Olympic Club of modernization which the club sadly can not bring to an end.

The work is particularly inexplicable considering the excellent restoration work performed at nearby clubs such as San Francisco Golf Club, California Golf Club and the Meadow Club

In the minds of some golf critics, the steep, uphill and blind par-3, 8th, never deserved much of a reputation. These critics may have been the ones who spent more time looking at it from the clubhouse, than playing it.  Golfers found this short, deceptive hole to be eminently demanding. Miss-hits often caught tree limbs, or fell short into the deep and difficult front bunker.  Even after good shots, players walked to the green with measures of uncertainty.  Now the hole is gone, bulldozed by a superintendent and his personal friend, a golf architect,  seeking more length for one week in June 2012 when the club hosts its 5th U.S. Open.

Here is an evolution of the hole and its sad demise as seen through historic photos.

Historians believe this to be one of the earliest pictures of the Lakeside CC course, from about 1920. It shows the tee shot to a fortress green.  Walkways line the green on the left and right side of the flat bottom bunker.






Another shot from the 1920's, showing the view from the clubhouse. The green has slightly square corners in a Biarritz style, although some historians argue that it has a swale in the middle.  Either way, this version of the 8th provided a demanding tee shot to any level. In the 1930’s, the club split the bunker to make a walking path to the 9th tee.


 
The 8th green during the 1955 US Open playoff between Hogan and Fleck.  Observe one of America’s great unique bunkers, the classic finger bunker at the back of the green. Other bunkers had classical shape and natural looking mounding surrounding the bunkers.




The tee shot on the 8th in about 2005.  The course had eliminated trees on the left side just before the 1998 US Open for safety reasons.  By this time, the classic style walk off tee had been unnecessarily raised and expanded.

Green around 2005.  The green had been "modernized" significantly by Robert Trent Jones Sr. prior to the 1966 US Open.  Note how poor mowing patterns had turned the green into a circle and all the bunkers have lost their three dimensional rough edge look.  The cart path runs across the middle of the fairway.  The single bunker (on right) had been split (again) into two shapeless round pot bunkers.



The 2006/2007 version, with work performed in house at a considerable cost. Extensive grading into the hill allowed the cart path to be extended around the green. The right side had been cleared away of brush and trees. 



The once great finger bunker had become a small modern strip bunker without classical shape or character. 



Today’s alteration of the Lake’s 8th really began in 2008, with the 7th green. The course superintendent convinced club officials to extend the 7th and raze the historic three tier green (described as one of the top 500 holes in the world) in preparation for the 2012 US Open.  One move begat another, and forced changes to the 8th.

With a budget of over $1 million, work began in late 2008, with William (Bill) Love as the architect.  Mr. Love was chosen over more qualified restoration architects due to his long time friendship with the superintendent.  Mr. Love recommended his preferred contractor, Frontier Golf Construction as the contractor, again over more qualified restoration shapers and contractors. The superintendent and staff assisted.  All 18 greens are converted to USGA specifications yet instead of seeding the greens, rolled in bent grass sod at a considerable additional cost.



The all new hole played from a different angle, June 2009.  The green is shaped kidney style.


Note: The old 8th tee is visible on the right side of this photo.  The new 7th green addition jets out, slightly. 

The path from the 7th green to the new 8th tee is now the longest on the course and is aesthetically typical of modernization at the club.



Another two dimensional oval bunker on the back right of the new 8th green.  This style is consistent with the other bunkers maintained by the superintendent and built by the architect.





The view from the tee.  The large multi tiered tee area is out of context with most of the course except for other multiple tees that Mr. Love and the superintendent have installed over the last few years.  The hole now plays 200 yards, up from 137 to 150 on the old 8th hole.   All of Olympic Clubs par 3 holes now play middle to long in length.  The hole continues to play up hill yet the front of the green is now open as opposed to the old hole which required a force carry over the bunker.

Lester George

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2009, 05:02:42 PM »


I like the original one at the shorter distance.

Lester

Kalen Braley

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2009, 05:27:34 PM »
Joel,

Very nicely done post and appreciate the work and effot you put into it.  I have to say I really like the look of the hole as it appears in the 1st two pictures. While I've never played Olympic, it sure seems it would have been best to save most of that money and restore that green complex to what it once was....what a neat looking little green.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2009, 05:31:38 PM »
There's no substitute for taste
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2009, 08:39:18 PM »
Funny......my general manager is dying to play the Lake, and due to some contacts we may very well be playing it sometime this year. And all I can think about is, knowing him, I just know he would look at that hole through the eyes of that final picture, not having a clue as to the history of the hole, and would probably find it one of the most picturesque, demanding par 3s he's ever played.  :(

As with most on this site, I too would have preferred the original. Maybe I should try to get my boss to visit this site more.  ;)
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2009, 09:40:41 PM »
What year(s) were the palm trees planted?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 01:08:54 AM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2009, 10:50:16 PM »
As with most on this site, I too would have preferred the original.

Let's let the 1496 or so speak for themselves.

I for one don't see the merit of a Biarritz green on an uphill 120-140 yd hole.  Where the green is blind. 

I also don't care for the forest that was brought to the sand dunes.

But, maybe I'm wrong...maybe it actually was a better Biarritz example than #9 at Yale.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2009, 11:04:35 PM »

I also like the tree work that had been done as of 2005/2006.

Since then, it appears that Christmas trees have started plugging-up the place.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 02:02:53 PM by Dunlop_White »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2009, 11:46:43 PM »

I for one don't see the merit of a Biarritz green on an uphill 120-140 yd hole.  Where the green is blind. 


Kevin, Please elaborate why you don't think it has merit?

 One of the cool aspects of having a blind one shot hole is the anticipation and doubt as one climbs to the reveal. Having a green with a Biarritz like swale, would only accentuate that doubt, enhancing the anticipation. Once revealed, depending on the ball's and pin positions, the golfer's next task was either eased or further tested. What's not to merit?

Joel, An excellent example of a quality GCA thread. Your comment about the fads that have invaded the Cal and Meadow club's had wonderful subtext, illustrating that there are factions holding on to their priceless god given right to be ignorant, subjective and ordinary. What was that word you used? Oh yes,,,consistent. Well done!
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2009, 11:54:05 PM »
Adam,

As you know, Tour Pros don't like doubt.  Plus, the groans, ooohs, ahs and whatever would probably tell them just where there ball ended up.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2009, 12:07:12 AM »

Kevin, Please elaborate why you don't think it has merit?

 One of the cool aspects of having a blind one shot hole is the anticipation and doubt as one climbs to the reveal. Having a green with a Biarritz like swale, would only accentuate that doubt, enhancing the anticipation. Once revealed, depending on the ball's and pin positions, the golfer's next task was either eased or further tested. What's not to merit?

I would expect that most balls would end up in the swale.  These are short iron shots, so nothing could run through the swale.  Short shots, into the swale.  Longer shots, spin back into the swale.  That's probably (I'm guessing unless the Merion detectives come out to SF to get the real answer) why it was changed. 

Quote
Joel, An excellent example of a quality GCA thread.

The title of the thread is a nice touch.  Vandalism?  Nice. 

Quote
Your comment about the fads that have invaded the Cal and Meadow club's had wonderful subtext, illustrating that there are factions holding on to their priceless god given right to be ignorant, subjective and ordinary. What was that word you used? Oh yes,,,consistent. Well done!

This is a continuation of the "GCA superiority" concept introduced in a post above.  You in another thread said about the work at Olympic  "Cal Club 10 and 8"...I assume you've played both courses since the redo's, or is the match play score the result of looking at pictures, or even better, relying on what other people (who haven't even played the course(s)) write on this board?   

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2009, 12:09:40 AM »


I also the tree work that had been done as of 2005/2006.

Since then, it appears that Christmas trees have started plugging-up the place.

Not at all.  16 has been cleared out more, as has the trees to the right of 9. 
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2009, 12:10:58 AM »
Adam,

As you know, Tour Pros don't like doubt.  Plus, the groans, ooohs, ahs and whatever would probably tell them just where there ball ended up.

Jeff -- Are there examples of uphill blind biarritz greens in this length range that have worked?
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mike Sweeney

Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2009, 06:18:09 AM »
Adam,

As you know, Tour Pros don't like doubt.  Plus, the groans, ooohs, ahs and whatever would probably tell them just where there ball ended up.

Jeff -- Are there examples of uphill blind biarritz greens in this length range that have worked?

A completely different landscape - the 5th at Fishers is an uphill Biarritz. Only the back swale is green however, the front is fairway as is the swale.

Does the 8th at Olympic now have a false front? It is hard to see.

I like the look from the tee shot picture of the new 8th. The details around the green are hard to see. I am not too big on the cart path(s) and new pine tree pictures.

As The Olympic Club is an Athletic Club first, it seems that hosting US Opens fits in with their charter. Why are we demonizing the Architect and Super when there is the seven member Greens Committee? Isn't the Greens Committee responsible for presenting the best course for Championships? Isn't there a long history of changes to the course for Championships? I assume these changes were done in consultation with the USGA, so using the word "vandalism" seems out of context. If The Olympic Club runs anything like The New York Athletic Club (and it does), employees and contractors would be given very little wiggle room for execution of pre-approved plans, so why are they being targeted?

From The Olympic Club's Bylaws:

The Green Committee shall consist of seven (7) members, three (3) of whom
are current members of the Golf Committee. The President shall appoint one
(1) new Golf Committee member annually for a term of three (3) years, to
serve concurrently with the member's term on the Golf Committee. The
President shall also appoint annually one (1) Non-Golf Committee member
holding a golf privilege for a term of four (4) years. Vacancies shall be filled
in the same manner as provided for above.
Under jurisdiction of the Board, the Committee shall monitor the care,
maintenance and condition of the golf courses, related facilities and grounds.
Any changes that will alter the character, nature or playability of the golf
courses must be approved by the Board. The Committee shall be responsible
for making recommendations for capital improvements, repairs, annual
budgets and plans for maintenance, capital improvements, expenditures for the
golf courses, related facilities and grounds. It shall also monitor to completion
all Board approved projects as required by the Bylaws.


The Mucci Dictator model is NOT going to work at a large club so let's not go there. If the changes are that bad, how can the Olympic members work with the existing system to make changes?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 06:51:30 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2009, 07:44:37 AM »
Kevin, Yes, I'm busted. Have not played the redo's. However, there are special individuals, whose opinions I can take to the bank. Gib, Joel and Ran Morrissett being among the best.

Jeff, Are you actually basing the quality of the alterations on play by the tour pros once a decade?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2009, 10:23:50 AM »
Wow. There is a lot of piling on, and a lot of people on differing sides of the fence here.

I know 3 full OC members who quite like the changes.

They have all been members for 40 or so years.

They voted for the changes.

John Foley

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2009, 10:28:30 AM »
All 18 greeens we're sodded w/ bent??

WOW - When I was there last year I saw the pratice green on the Cliffs course had been done to see how well they could keep the Poa out. At atht time it didn't look like they we're being too succesful and it appears they went ahead.

What's the green make up going to be by 2012?
Integrity in the moment of choice

Nick Church

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2009, 10:31:13 AM »
Mr. Stewart, Thank you for a very thorough presentation.  I now understand the disappointment held by many.  I've never played the course, and doubt I ever will.  Given the chance, I'd rather have tackled the shorter version with rough hewn bunkers.

ChipRoyce

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2009, 10:39:25 AM »
I say vandalism

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2009, 11:22:02 AM »
All 18 greeens we're sodded w/ bent??

WOW - When I was there last year I saw the pratice green on the Cliffs course had been done to see how well they could keep the Poa out. At atht time it didn't look like they we're being too succesful and it appears they went ahead.

What's the green make up going to be by 2012?

There was no alternative but to do it.  If the greens were poa, they would possibly/likely be in horrible shape by 2012 as a result of nematode infestation that has affected all the courses in the area.  SFGC changed their greens as well a few years ago.  Changing to bent was non-controversial...some raised the question of whether USGA spec greens were necessary.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Michael Moore

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2009, 11:41:32 AM »
The walkways in the photo from 1920 are a wicked eyesore.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2009, 11:46:23 AM »
Adam,

As you know, Tour Pros don't like doubt.  Plus, the groans, ooohs, ahs and whatever would probably tell them just where there ball ended up.

I say who cares what the pros think, Jeff!

The U.S. Open comes around there, what, like every 15 yrs.???  That's 4.5 times in the lifespan of your average human being.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Lou_Duran

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2009, 04:31:22 PM »
I liked the old #8 because it was a very unusual par three (uphill, relatively short, blind landing area, difficulty in guessing the correct distance, the imposing clubhouse as background).  Don't know why a large change was necessary.  Vandalism is too strong a word, and I suspect that the majority of the members probably like the new look.  As the current political situation suggests, for some, democracy can really suck.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2009, 06:11:39 PM »
I liked the old #8 because it was a very unusual par three (uphill, relatively short, blind landing area, difficulty in guessing the correct distance, the imposing clubhouse as background).  Don't know why a large change was necessary.  Vandalism is too strong a word, and I suspect that the majority of the members probably like the new look.  As the current political situation suggests, for some, democracy can really suck.

I REALLY liked the old #8, because I only played it once in my life and hit 8 iron to about 6 feet.  ;D

Do NOT ask about the putt.   :-X

Mike Benham

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Re: Olympic Club - Progress or Vandalism?
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2009, 06:31:45 PM »

I REALLY liked the old #8, because I only played it once in my life and hit 8 iron to about 6 feet.  ;D

Do NOT ask about the putt.   :-X



Looky what I found ...





"... and I liked the guy ..."

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