[Niall C]

Jim.  I think this has been mentioned numerous times.  The Francis land swap was made to accommodate the final 5 holes.  The first 13 were in place (or at least decided) prior to the swap.  If the swap happened before 1911, then it was before Wilson was involved.  If the first 13 holes were routed prior to Wilson's involvement, he didn't route them.  I'm not saying that any of this is what happened, I'm just answering Jim's question.

Henry

Similiar to my post to Jeff above, why do we think that the 13 holes were set in stone or finalised before the land swap ? Would it not be sufficient to know that you could get at least 13 holes in that tract of land ? The evidence seems to suggest that they weren't finalised in any case as the committee subsequently came up with 5 different routings, although I do concede that the differences in the routings may have been for the additional 5 holes only.

I just think that we are putting too much emphasis on the land deals to determine who did what and when in terms of course design.

Niall

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am REALLY not trying to blow smoke up people's asses here.....

Jim Nugent,

I really have no idea how TD does his routings.  I picked a name out of a hat, but most gca's have associates and when they get busy, those associates do at least some prelim work on routings.  You have to ask him.

Niall,

Perhaps a good catch but I am not sure without any more speculation.  Merion' silt/clay soils and no/little fw irrigation would likely get to running in the summer just as any other course. I base this on playing clay based, poorly irrigated courses elsewhere up until the 1980's.

As to the routing, I believe I said I based that on my experience.  In modern times, the developer often uses one gca and/or land planner to route the course, but the course owner/developer (when a separate entity) brings in their own experts to protect their interests. I have always had the impression that this was the basic scenario when Connel hired Barker, and MCC "got after it" by bringing in their own expert in CBM a short time later to get their opinion from the golf perspective (not the developers, which Barker would have been obligated to give, if he was the developers architect).  

I have often been hired by developers to give a quick routing to help them determine how much land is left for development and amounts of frontage, etc.  I can do those fairly quickly but if and when the project becomes a reality, always re-study the routing to make SURE it works.  It would certainly have been WISE to have a pretty good idea of how to put together the land parcel and route the course before plunking down the money.

On the other hand, the record shows that they had to do a land swap fairly late in the routing process, and they were amateurs designing a course at the infancy of gca in America.  I can't say that they did for sure and it was simpler time.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Nugent,

I really have no idea how TD does his routings.  I picked a name out of a hat, but most gca's have associates and when they get busy, those associates do at least some prelim work on routings.  You have to ask him.

If you don't know whether Tom works that way, maybe you should have picked another example.  You spoke with such certainty, I thought you were describing how Doak courses get routed. 

Sounds closer to the Jack Nicklaus model, from what I hear. 

[Bradley Anderson]

If you have another look at MacDonalds letter his comments on course length is qualified by ground conditions. Am I right in saying that NGLA was intended to play fast and firm while Merion was considered unlikely to match those conditions, would that account for MacDonalds discrepancy on course length for the two courses ?

Also, with regards to course routing before the land purchase, do you really need to have a finalised routing to commit to the purchase ? Would it not be sufficient to prove that there was enough land to fit in what you wanted ? That being the case, would Barkers plan not have been sufficient to prove site was capable, even though Merion had no intention in using it ? Pure speculation on my part but interested to hear the professional view.

Niall

Niall,

Merion seeded their fairways to bentgrass. And they were not irrigated. So I think we can assume that it was always firm. I don 't know how that comments to their intentions, but there you go.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Question: if CBM didn't produce a routing, then what was he doing exactly between the day of his visit to the site and the day he sent the report?

If the answer is "nothing", then why would he bother to draft a written report at all? Why wouldn't he tell the Merion boys outright what he thinks about the property on the day of his visit?

To me it seems pretty logical that he must have done some work at home and based his written report on this research. Things were very different in 1910:

• It was a definite effort to make a journey, even to nearby places.
• It took some real time to write a letter or a report.

Why would anyone go to all this trouble for, as has been suggested, basically no effect?

Ulrich

[Dan Herrmann]

Ulrich,
Perhaps CBM was "networking" with the business leaders of Philly?  Seriously...  He was an amateur, would he have wanted to set himself up with the movers and shakers?

Just a swag

[Ulrich Mayring]

Good point. Was he still working as a stockbroker at that time?

Ulrich

[Mike_Cirba]

Do we even know what day Macdonald was at Merion?

He came down at the request of some rich guys and friends he played golf against to look at land with them.

He took some time, talked with Whigham away from the "so, what do you think" of those hoping for a positive, and then sent a basic report.

If he did a routing, he would have discussed or enclosed the routing.

What is so hard to accept about that?

[Rich Goodale]

Wasn't Macdonald (as a high mucky muck in the USGA) in Philly in 15-18 June 1910 to watch the US Open, held at the St. Martin's Course of the Phildelphia CC?  I think a better SWAG is that the Merion people took advantage of this "fact" to show him their prospective property and ask his opinions.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wasn't Macdonald (as a high mucky muck in the USGA) in Philly in 15-18 June 1910 to watch the US Open, held at the St. Martin's Course of the Phildelphia CC?  I think a better SWAG is that the Merion people took advantage of this "fact" to show him their prospective property and ask his opinions.

Rich,

You're absolutely correct.

[Dan Herrmann]

Rich - Ding, Ding, Ding!

Thanks!

[Phil_the_Author]

Of course as he was quite busy finishing as the second low amateur in the championship, Tilly was a tad too busy to accompany him at that time... 

[Ulrich Mayring]

If he did a routing, he would have discussed or enclosed the routing.

Only if a routing had been requested by Merion. But if they only asked him to "look at the property and give his expert opinion", then he would do just that. But being the perfectionist that he was, he would never give his "expert opinion" without having done a routing.

His detailed listing of the holes and their lengths plus the fact that he caught onto the lack of acreage strongly suggest that he did a routing. How else could he arrive at the numbers and the detailed purchasing advice for another parcel of land?

Whether that routing was ever seen by anyone at Merion is another question. But it would certainly play a part in CBM's selection of one of the five proposed routings.

Ulrich

[henrye]

It's really pretty funny that both sides demand that we only go on FACTS and can only interpret these limited documents as facts to fit their opinion...

Sorry Jim.  I wasn't trying to be funny, just helpful.  I re-read what you said on this post and I think I understand it better.  Essentially, you're saying that Wilson may have been (very likely) involved in the whole Merion design exercise in the fall of 1910.  Mike goes on to say that Wilson was busy at some activity during 1910, because he missed a number of tournaments.  Perhaps he was involved, but I do think someone should provide at least some evidence or even a compelling reason why this could be so, given Wilson himself said he wasn't involved prior to 1911.  At some point, Jim, one has to make a best guess as to what occurred and up until now, no one can find evidence of Wilson's involvement in any capacity prior to 1911, and we have Wilson himself saying he became involved in early 1911.  I think I understand why both David & Tom Paul at least agree on this one issue.

[JESII]

Henry,

What exactly does Wilson say about his involvement?

Thanks.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim/Henry
 
I'll have to look but I don't recall Hugh Wilson ever saying he wasn't involved before February 1911.

I think he said that's when he started work with the Construction Committee...big difference.

Ulrich,

Of all the logical leaps in all of the Merion threads, I think you just broke a world record. 

The three acres the railroad owned has a nice creek going through it and was on one side of the CLUBHOUSE.    One would have to be rather daft to visit the property and not see that as a logical suggestion, especially since the land in question and total acreage was going to be possibly a tight fit.

He also had drawn his "ideal course lengths" at many times in the past.   Repeating them for Merion was simply an exercise in graciousness.

But to take all that and basically guarantee that M&W HAD to do a routing is...well...let's just say I'm ducking as you fly over! 

[Niall C]

If he did a routing, he would have discussed or enclosed the routing.

Only if a routing had been requested by Merion. But if they only asked him to "look at the property and give his expert opinion", then he would do just that. But being the perfectionist that he was, he would never give his "expert opinion" without having done a routing.

His detailed listing of the holes and their lengths plus the fact that he caught onto the lack of acreage strongly suggest that he did a routing. How else could he arrive at the numbers and the detailed purchasing advice for another parcel of land?

Whether that routing was ever seen by anyone at Merion is another question. But it would certainly play a part in CBM's selection of one of the five proposed routings.

Ulrich

Ulrich

He was asked to have a look and give an expert opinion not to design a course but to give advice on whether the land was suitable for that. You don't have to do a routing to give an opinion, even an informed opinion IMHO.

As early as the tail end of the previous century (possibly even before) there was discussion amongst golfers as to ideal hole lengths. CBM was merely giving his view, which would apply to any course given allowances for playing conditions. This was general advice.

In terms of acreage, back in 1911 I don't think 120 acres was particularly tight and indeed was probably considered quite ample for a regular shaped site with no constraints. Not knowing Merion but having seen the maps that have been posted, it is regualrly shaped and from what I gather the topography isn't particularly challenging. Back in 1910 or 1911 the most obvious constaints that the site had for designing/routing a course were the clubhouse building which already existed (I think I'm right in saying that), the quarry and some streams, the latter also providing good opportunities for hole designing some interesting holes. The quarry is close to the clubhouse and so I don't think it takes too much of a stretch of the imagination to think that CBM or anyone else who had previous experience of laying out a course, would quickly conclude that it would be as well to have a bit more land round there to give some elbow room in the design. You don't need in any way to do a routing to come to that conclusion.

All conjecture on my part but 

[Niall C]

.....but you don't need to be a flying pig to believe in it.

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

I take your point, but I feel that we must remember that CBM was a pupil of Old Tom (1872-4) and learn much of his trade from the old man.

One of Old Tom’s little quirks if you want to call it that meant that he would not just generally advise on a course without routing it first. He would then pass on the information to his client or friend that the land was suitable for a course plus the rough initial routing.  Therefore, as CBM knew some of Old Tom methods can we say that perhaps he also retained that little quirk as it was taught to him by his tutor in St Andrews. I think the proof that CBM held Old Tom in high regard shows by including (I believe) ten of Old Tom’s holes in his new NGLA course.

The point is that some of the early designers did route the land when undertaking a survey, because in those days a survey was a crude design to see if a course could be accommodated on the land designated, if not then suggestions of X numbers of holes were made.

I do not think that we can really discount CBM input until we study his MO prior to his visit. I am not taking sides, but would someone like CBM just work from drawings or would he want to view the land prior to making any comments or suggestions?  Bearing in mind his initial training was in Scotland.

As this debate has extended the knowledge surrounding Merion we should not dismiss what today we may consider unnecessary or a waste of time and try to remember what was normal procedure way back in the early 1900’s.

I have not studied or examined any information on Merion in detail, just tried to keep up with the general flow. We must not forget that the language was slightly different back then so was their approach to surveying, designing and construction. Therefore, I feel we must examine all potential influences in more detail – which I am more than happy to leave in the hand of others.

Melvyn   

[Andy Hughes]

One of Old Tom’s little quirks if you want to call it that meant that he would not just generally advise on a course without routing it first. He would then pass on the information to his client or friend that the land was suitable for a course plus the rough initial routing.  Therefore, as CBM knew some of Old Tom methods can we say that perhaps he also retained that little quirk as it was taught to him by his tutor in St Andrews. I think the proof that CBM held Old Tom in high regard shows by including (I believe) ten of Old Tom’s holes in his new NGLA course

Melvyn, are you saying that you believe that CBM had been with OTM when OTM was routing courses?

[Mike_Cirba]

Melvyn,

With all due respect, if Macdonald learned anything about routing and designing a golf course from Old Tom during the period of 1872-4 he certainly didn't show it at the original Chicago Golf Club layout.

I truly think he learned much more later from Horace Hutchinson.

[henrye]

Henry,

What exactly does Wilson say about his involvement?

Thanks.

Jim, I'm going by memory, so I'm hoping that either Tom Paul or David will put up the reference.  I don't think I will ever find it in the back pages of these threads.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Andy

I am not say CBM was there when actual courses were being surveyed/designed etc. However, what I am saying is that CBM was at St Andrews, I believe the University of St Andrews when a young man in 1872 and not returning home to the USA until 1874. During that time, he was closely associated with Old Tom. He even had his club locker in Old Toms shop. CBM was also involved with the R&A through his grandfather and uncle.

For me this clearly confirms a close link and he would have been party to designs and modification that Old Tom was involved with – also he would have known Young Tommy who had just pulled off his fourth consecutive Open win.

As for the courses Old Tom was involved with at that time, I will list just a few which should prove that CBM could have been very aware of them i.e. Forfar, Luffness (old), & Carnoustie. 

Mike, he may well have also learnt from Horace Hutchinson. Yet I am surprised that you have not realised that Horace grew up on a course designed by Old Tom, he was there on a few of Old Tom’s many visits over the years to tweak the course for the club(Royal North Devon).

Hutchinson was a close companion of Old Tom and travelled with Old Tom to Askernish, Stornoway and other sites in Scotland, so was also very aware of how courses were designed. Either way Old Tom had some influence over both. Although I am not aware of many of Horace’s designs apart form Royal Eastbourne, Royal West Norfolk and one on the Isles of Scilly. Would that limited design portfolio convey much about design to anyone, let alone CBM or should we say he too learnt some design knowledge from Old Tom and this in part is what he passed on to CBM?

I will say that Hutchinson was indeed a good golfer and prolific writer, but was his design experience sufficient enough to actually influence a designer like CBM  – I can’t answer that.  As for Chicago, I again cannot comment but he was in contact with Old Tom during that time asking for help in providing Green Keepers, Professional & Club Makers. Hence the move of the Foulis Family on the recommendation of Old Tom to CBM. I feel this in my humble eyes shows a close contact between men that did not die out in 1874 when CBM returned to the USA. Chicago may or may not have reflected much of Old Tom but CBM went to town on the NGLA. 

The point is there is more to it that you may think, so we should not dismiss things out of hand or because they may not fit our current opinions.

Melvyn

[Rich Goodale]

Melvyn

CB goes into some detail in his book about his relationship with Old Tom, and never mentions golf course architecture (that I can recall, at least).  From what I remember, he was more of a groupie than a disciple, and as Mike implies, he really diddn't do much in the way of interesting course design until 20 years after his leaving Scotland.  While Old Tom was working at Carnoustie in 1872, I find it hard to believe that he would take along a young student who at best would just be learning to play the game.  But, like you, I'm just specualting, and I could be wrong.

Rich

[Melvyn Morrow]

Rich

I am not saying that he took CBM with him to any site, I was saying that he would have been aware of the of what Old Tom was up to having spent time in his shop and in close contact with Old Tom. I agree that CBM did little for some 18-20 years but does that mean he did not stay true to his early experience?  As you say he had no one else to influence him during those wilderness years.

As for speculating, I do not believe I am. When I refer to CBM or Horace, I find it surprising that some seem to accept that CBM picked up much from Horace without seeming to know what actually influenced Horace in the first place.

As for CBM, he had contact with Old Tom as I said hence the Foulis Family emigrating to the States. It was also about this time that Old Tom declined a visit to the USA stating being too old, having earlier decline a trip to Australia.

The point I was making is that we do not have the full story, so we need to look at past contacts and influences to try to make some sense of what actually went on. However, back to my original point, surveys in the early days included a rough design/routing, which CBM would/should have been aware of with his close contact with Old Tom - you may agree with thator perhaps not.

Melvyn

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