How many forced carries should a course have?

[Anthony Gray]

  Aren't a couple good for the course?

  Anthony

[John_McMillan]

There are three balls in a sleeve of golf balls.
Therefore, a course should have not more than two forced carries, else one might not be able to finish a round.

[Brent Hutto]

I think John has it about right...in match play. If you play strict card-and-pencil sometimes one forced carry of under 100 yards and a whole dozen balls isn't enough to avoid the DQ. Nothing sadder than watching a double-digit handicapper with a case of the tops facing a water hazard in a stroke-play Club Championship.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

A forced carry could be a cross bunker, and not something where you'd lose a ball.  And I think it's important to make a distinction between the two.

The Dyes believed there should be ZERO forced carries once you got to the fairway on most courses ... because Mrs. Dye pointed out that a woman who could only carry the ball 70 yards, would have to lay up on even a 25-yard carry if she was more than 40 yards away from it.  And that's not much fun.  

They were fine with a forced carry off the tee.  However, that solution seems unsatisfying, since nobody is going to play from a set of tees which has carries they can't normally make, unless they have been dragged back there by a playing partner who was formerly a friend.  So, I don't mind the idea of having one or two "forced carries" although I will usually give some way for the weaker players to skirt it or thread through it if they're accurate enough.  A ten-yard wide gap is not enough to help the normal golfer trying to make a carry from 180 yards, but it can be enough for the short hitter who's fifty yards in front of it.

[Tom Yost]

The greater Phoenix area is home to a majority of "target" style desert golf courses due to turf area restrictions.  It's not uncommon to have 18 forced carries on any course built in the last 20 years.   By forced carry, I'm referring to areas of native vegetation between tee and fairway.   

[Dave Givnish]

I agree with Mrs. Dye on this one.  There should also be adequate tee grounds so that older players and juniors who don't have the distance can get past the transitions without losing hope.  It's pretty sad when I hear someone talk about giving up the game because they can no longer carry a transition or a lake.




 

[Pete_Pittock]

If there are forced carries I'm of the opinion the 1st hole tee shot is a good place for one because it should sort out the players to the appropriate tee.

[Ben Sims]

I think it's all dependent on handicap.  The folks that play the tips, should expect 3-6 forced carries from the tee.  Most of those should be on par 3's I would think.  

For us mere mortals, the 2-3 number brought up by Mr. McMillan makes more sense.  I have played courses with more that are very playable for the average golfer, and some with less that were very tough courses.

The distinction that Mrs. Dye makes is pretty astute.  I don't think you want people giving up the game for fear of losing balls or not carrying hazards.  I have seen it happen, and there's nothing more frustrating for a short hitting, female golfer than being 30 yards from a hazard and just poking something closer so she can carry the 30 yard wetland in front of the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Aren't a couple good for the course?

Anthony,

I think you have to define what you mean by a forced carry.

GCGC has one on just about every hole

I believe Yale and NGLA have their share as well

[Peter Pallotta]

Anthony -

I'm guessing that most of the those who don't like forced carries off the tee (and I'm one) would say that, if you're going to have forced carries, make the carry-distance shorter rather than longer.  I disagree - I think they work best when the carry-distance is longer rather than shorter, i.e. long enough so that it is a legitimate test of whether a given player can hit, on that particular shot, the kind of golf shot he EXPECTS himself to hit...and at the same time, long enough that the player who decides NOT to test himself that way (with the carry) isn't left with a punishingly long approach shot.

On a, say, 390 yard par 4, a carry/crossing hazard at 230-240 yards (with the prevailing wind) seems about right. From the appropriate tees, a decision -- try to carry it, and you have about 145 left; lay up short, and you have 170 left.  More important, I think, is what's happening at the green, i.e. whether or not the lay-upper can at least roll up a long iron/hybrid through a good siee opening, and at least somewhere onto the green (if not the ideal place/side)
   
Peter   

[Carl Rogers]

Riverfront has a good number of forced carries from the white tees over wetlands:
-4th hole, a par 3 (130 yard carry) 
-5th hole, 110 yard carry drive
-10th hole, drive on the par 4 (100 yard carry)
-13th hole, par 3 .. about 125 yards from the white tees
-15th hole, par 4 Only 90 yards from the whites (190+ from the blue tees)... a cape hole by some definitions
-18th hole, the most controversial, the wetland is located about 350 yards out to about 425 yards.  this carry is required for all golfers

with the very challenging greens, a hard course for the less skilled

[Cliff Hamm]

In reference to Mrs. Dye, Newport National is a course I love.  The 10th hole has a forced carry for the second shot of about 125 yards.  For most women, including my wife, this is just too long.  When I play with my wife she hits a drive, then picks up and places her ball in the drop area on the other side of the wetlands and then commences to hit her third shot.  There is simply no other way to play the hole for her...Fox Hopyard, a Rulewich design, in  Connecticut is the worst I have ever seen for forced carries.

[Andy Troeger]

Wuskowhan Players Club in West Olive, MI has (I think) 23 forced carries. More holes than not have a forced carry over swamp/marsh off the tee, and quite a few have a second one in front of the green.

When I coached high school girls golf we played a course with about 10 forced carries, including one that was probably 120 yards. They played it so that if the girls hit into those hazards they could drop on the other side instead of the normal drop rules. On the long carry hole I told my weaker players to try to drive the ball into the hazard (it wasn't more than 115-20 yards from their tee) so that they could drop on the other side with their third shot per the local rule. Then it was a chip and a putt for a par. Stupid hole, necessary but unfortunate local rule, but our scores were always pretty respectable there.

[cary lichtenstein]

The club I belong to, Admirals Cove has many forced carries and I love it and so do the members

[Peter Ferlicca]

Stone Eagle has to have the record for the most forced carries, but being a desert course in the mountains you have to expect that.  17 of the 18 tee shots are all forced and that is being generous on hole 10 if you top it right in front of you, you are on grass.  Then there are 3 pretty big ravines you must cross on holes 8, 13, 14 in the middle of the hole.   All this being said if you play the right tees it shouldn't be the big of problem for you, and the ladies tees are almost always start at the beginning of the fairway.

[Matthew Rose]

There's a hole here at Lone Tree Golf Club (#12) which has a terrible forced carry. The hole is a 400 yard par four from the back tee, but the last 140 yards are all lake, with no bailout anywhere. It's just a green sitting on the far side of the water. The fairway ends about 255 off the gold tee and has a dirt path running between it and the lake, so you can't hit driver.

I really dislike it. Every time I play the hole all I can think about is how my wife and my mother wouldn't be able to finish it if they played there.

[Tom Yost]

... nobody is going to play from a set of tees which has carries they can't normally make, unless they have been dragged back there by a playing partner who was formerly a friend.  

Heh, heh...

[Mark Pritchett]

Probably the best forced carries involve going for the green in 2 on a Par 5, when there is an alternate (longer) way for the players who take 3 shots to get to the green to avoid the forced carry.

[John_McMillan]

Probably the best forced carries involve going for the green in 2 on a Par 5, when there is an alternate (longer) way for the players who take 3 shots to get to the green to avoid the forced carry.

If there are "alternate ways" then the carry isn't forced, is it?

[Carl Johnson]

  Aren't a couple good for the course?

  Anthony

It's solely a matter of personal taste.  I'd ask the question a little differently.  Are forced carries good for the game (i.e., the match)?  In no particular order, here are my thoughts.

For me, the course is a playing field on which I'm playing against one or more opponents.  I want the course to be interesting and to present options, but the idea that a "good" course must "demand" specific kinds of shots makes no sense to me.  That sounds like I playing the course, not the opponent(s).  If my opponent can hit the ball longer, then he may have a better chance at beating me in on a hole with a forced carry alternative, but I should have the option - the other alternative - to do it a different way and still, with perhaps a better short game, prevail.

Apparently lots of players love long forced carries, and fortunately there are courses out there to suit them.  Others don't, and there are courses to suit them.  I'm in the latter category.  I choose not to play courses with too many carries where failure always means a lost ball, or at least not play them a second time.  To be clear, the kind of forced carry I am talking about is one where, if the shot does not carry, the ball is lost, or becomes unplayable.

The fathers of the game would scratch their heads over this discussion.  Featheries were very expensive.  (Hence, foursome matches -- four players needed only two balls for a match.)  I doubt that options which included the good possibility of losing your ball were popular.

The so-called penalty for a lost ball is not a punishment, and thus avoidance of the penalty a goal in itself, but rather a means by which you may continue your match notwithstanding that your ball has gone missing.  The game floursihes as the possibility for lost balls is diminished.

[Mark Pritchett]

John,

The carry is forced for the player going for the green in two, but you are correct that no player has to take the "forced" route.

Mark

[John_McMillan]

John,

The carry is forced for the player going for the green in two, but you are correct that no player has to take the "forced" route.

Mark

Isn't every carry "forced" in that a shot which doesn't complete the carry is penalized?
Don't "forced carries" then refer to shots in which there are not options to either completing the carry or suffering a penalty? 

[Mark Pritchett]

Let's just say the forced carry I am referring to is optional. 

You go for a green in two over a pond, miss and you are penalized. 

You take the longer route as a three shot hole by laying up in the fairway, then you have no forced carry.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

I'd agree, Admiral's Cove certainly has an abundance of forced carries, and the WIND can make them heroic.

Playing the appropriate set of tees is critical.

[Matthew Hunt]

Mark, a forced carry can't be optional.