How many forced carries should a course have?

[Ross Tuddenham]

I think a forced carries could be used more often if they were in front of greens.  I say this because they are forced in that you have to get over them to get to the green but you can choose from how far back you wish to attempt the carry. 

For example a par 5 like the 13th at augusta, either you take it on with a long iron/wood or lay up and take the easier carry with a wedge.  Also I use this as an example as a nice simple, shallow stream is a good hazard for this sort of shot as less balls will be lost.  It could also be used on a par four but with a less risk reward type situation.

From the tee I don't see the point in using many, if any, forced carries as a design that incorporates an alternate route would provide much more option and strategy.  Just make sure the player that avoids the carry is either forced to play an incredible accurate shot or is severely disadvantaged with their approach.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think a forced carries could be used more often if they were in front of greens.  I say this because they are forced in that you have to get over them to get to the green but you can choose from how far back you wish to attempt the carry. 

Then it's not a forced carry.

For example a par 5 like the 13th at augusta, either you take it on with a long iron/wood or lay up and take the easier carry with a wedge.  Also I use this as an example as a nice simple, shallow stream is a good hazard for this sort of shot as less balls will be lost.  It could also be used on a par four but with a less risk reward type situation.

The 3rd shot is a forced carry for those who can't get home in two.
The second shot isn't a FORCED carry because you're not FORCED to go for the green.

From the tee I don't see the point in using many, if any, forced carries as a design that incorporates an alternate route would provide much more option and strategy. 

I like the concept of presenting an option off the tee, a heroic carry to a specific location that provides an advantage with the next shot, or, a more benign shot that requires a more demanding next shot.

Just make sure the player that avoids the carry is either forced to play an incredible accurate shot or is severely disadvantaged with their approach.

Agreed.

What modern day courses present that option off the tee ?

[Ross Tuddenham]

Patrick_Mucci

I am not sure if you know of some alternative physics but if for example a par five like the 13th at augusta has a water feature totally blocking the front then you have to get over it at some point to complete the hole.  The point is there are options as to how far you choose to carry it from.  Whether it is from two yards in front of it or two hundred it still has to be carried.

or are you good at the good old skimmer shot?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick_Mucci

I am not sure if you know of some alternative physics but if for example a par five like the 13th at augusta has a water feature totally blocking the front then you have to get over it at some point to complete the hole.  The point is there are options as to how far you choose to carry it from.  Whether it is from two yards in front of it or two hundred it still has to be carried.

or are you good at the good old skimmer shot?

Ross,

Do the golfers swim across the water feature, or is there a area to the right that could accomodate the feint of heart ?

The second shot at # 15 isn't a forced carry.

The tee shot at # 12 is a forced carry.

"Forced" means that you DON'T have an option.

The second shot at # 15 has options

[Ross Tuddenham]

Hi patrick

I see what you are saying but it becomes forced if you take it on in that the consequences are the same as a forced carry.  Once you get the 3 iron in your hand it is a forced carry?

I can see why you would not agree, but I know for me it would feel like a forced carry.

[Sean_A]

Ross and Pat

You two are arguing the toss.  Augusta's 15th has a forced carry.  Its up to the player to decide when he wants to make the carry, but that is true of all forced carries that aren't one-shotters. 

The idea of a forced carry goes against the grain of what I consider the best designed holes, but for variety sake, one, maybe two is ok especially if there is plenty of room to err on the far side of the carry.  Of course, it depends on how forced it is.  For instance, I just played Edgbaston and there was an interesting hole which the player could play over water or out right. A stream bisected the fairway as well - this is the forced carry part.  However, the player could choose to short cut the water and try to carry the stream as well or short cut the water and be short of the stream or just bail out right.  What is cool is that the stream is not a hard carry for those who lay up, but quite hard for those trying to carry a the whole sheebang. 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hi patrick

I see what you are saying but it becomes forced if you take it on in that the consequences are the same as a forced carry.  Once you get the 3 iron in your hand it is a forced carry?

I can see why you would not agree, but I know for me it would feel like a forced carry.

Ross,

I think the difference is that the golfer can reduce the "ultimate" forced carry to a relatively benign CARRY.

Remember, this is a par 5.

Also remember,  you're looking at the hole in the context of the games of PGA Tour Pros.

The vast, overwhelming majority of the membership and their guests, aren't going for this green in two.

The same applies to # 13.

However, # 12 and # 16 require a forced, heroic carry with the tee shot.

I think there's a big difference in one's second shots at # 13 & # 15 and their tee shots at # 12 & # 16. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ross and Pat

You two are arguing the toss.  Augusta's 15th has a forced carry. 

Not on the second shot.

Its up to the player to decide when he wants to make the carry,
but that is true of all forced carries that aren't one-shotters.

Not in the context of par on a par 4.
A par 4 with a fronting pond requires a forced carry to reach the green in regulation. 

The idea of a forced carry goes against the grain of what I consider the best designed holes, but for variety sake, one, maybe two is ok especially if there is plenty of room to err on the far side of the carry. 


And yet, the # 1 golf course in America has at least 4 forced carriers, 6 if you include # 4 & # 6.

Of course, it depends on how forced it is.  For instance, I just played Edgbaston and there was an interesting hole which the player could play over water or out right. A stream bisected the fairway as well - this is the forced carry part.  However, the player could choose to short cut the water and try to carry the stream as well or short cut the water and be short of the stream or just bail out right.  What is cool is that the stream is not a hard carry for those who lay up, but quite hard for those trying to carry a the whole sheebang. 

I think that's one of the great assets of # 13 at ANGC.
The golfer can decide on distance, angle, lie and relative risks.

I've always been surprised that more architects didn't try to replicate the principle features/design of # 13.

[Charlie Goerges]

Patrick,

You may be right regarding the difficulty of the carries described, but I agree with Ross that if there is no way around it, the carry is "forced".

I think I like Ross' point about being able to choose the difficulty of the carry based on how one plays the hole. In fact it's the same idea as the "Hell's Half-Acre" concept. One can attempt the forced carry on the second shot or the third shot depending on the distance and one's abilities or confidence level. But the point of it is one can reduce the difficulty of the forced carry by playing conservatively. That can't be said for a forced carry directly in front of the tee box.

[Sean_A]

Ross and Pat

You two are arguing the toss.  Augusta's 15th has a forced carry. 

Not on the second shot.

Its up to the player to decide when he wants to make the carry,
but that is true of all forced carries that aren't one-shotters.

Not in the context of par on a par 4.
A par 4 with a fronting pond requires a forced carry to reach the green in regulation. 

The idea of a forced carry goes against the grain of what I consider the best designed holes, but for variety sake, one, maybe two is ok especially if there is plenty of room to err on the far side of the carry. 


And yet, the # 1 golf course in America has at least 4 forced carriers, 6 if you include # 4 & # 6.

Of course, it depends on how forced it is.  For instance, I just played Edgbaston and there was an interesting hole which the player could play over water or out right. A stream bisected the fairway as well - this is the forced carry part.  However, the player could choose to short cut the water and try to carry the stream as well or short cut the water and be short of the stream or just bail out right.  What is cool is that the stream is not a hard carry for those who lay up, but quite hard for those trying to carry a the whole sheebang. 

I think that's one of the great assets of # 13 at ANGC.
The golfer can decide on distance, angle, lie and relative risks.

I've always been surprised that more architects didn't try to replicate the principle features/design of # 13.

Patrick

Ignore par.  If water blocks the path, it is a forced carry.  When that carry is made is down to the player's ambitions and skill.  Sometimes the forced carry is the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even 5th shot.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is how many forced carries should a course have.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

There were a LOT more forced carries in the day of the stymie, as Pat M. will testify to.  Sic tranist gloria goofi.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Thanks guys, I think some other illustrated my pint in a better manner than me.

But Patrick I will take your point that for most non tour pros to go at it on the second might be a bit tough.  But after we have duffed the second to 3 iron range then the temptation might kick in. 

[Jim Tang]

I remember playing Bay Harbor, the Links/Quarry course, about 4 years ago, and that course had multiple forced carries.  I don't mind seeing 2 or 3 in a round, but after that, I think it gets a little silly. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

Ignore par. 

Easy for you to say, but, if we're playing golf and trying to play/score our best, par matters.

If water blocks the path, it is a forced carry. 

Not true.
For most of the golfing universe, on the second shot on # 15, from 300 yards, at ANGC there is NO forced carry on the second shot

A forced carry is only a forced carry IF the water comes into play on the shot at hand, not three shots down the road.

When that carry is made is down to the player's ambitions and skill. 

Not at all.
So, you would call the pond fronting the green on the 16th hole at Firestone, from the tips, a forced carry on the drive or second shot.
When the feature creating the forced carry is well out of range, it has nothing to do with a golfer's ambitions and skill.

Sometimes the forced carry is the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even 5th shot.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is how many forced carries should a course have.

ANGC has 4-6.
Pine Valley has just about one on every hole and I don't see Pine Valley as a golf course that's not held in the highest regard architecturally, do you ?

[John_McMillan]

Ignore par. 

Easy for you to say, but, if we're playing golf and trying to play/score our best, par matters.

In the Memorial Tournament, Tiger Woods, playing golf and trying to play/score his best, took 276 strokes.
Jim Furyk, playing golf and trying to play/score his best, took 277 strokes.

Which player won?

Would the outcome have been different if par had been 70/280 instead of 72/288? 
If the outcome would not have been different, then please illustrate how "par matters."

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks for that, John.  I can't wait to see Pat try to wriggle his way out of that one, even though I will refuse to read his reply if it is in small letters and/or colo(u)r.......

[Ross Tuddenham]

“A forced carry is only a forced carry IF the water comes into play on the shot at hand, not three shots down the road.”

Yes but that is exactly the point that is being made here, at some point whatever shot that may be a forced carry will come into play.

Take your example of the fact that for almost all players there is no forced carry for shot 2 #15 AGNC, so by that reasoning there is a forced carry for almost every golfer on the third shot?

[Sean_A]

Patrick

Ignore par. 

Easy for you to say, but, if we're playing golf and trying to play/score our best, par matters.

If water blocks the path, it is a forced carry. 

Not true.
For most of the golfing universe, on the second shot on # 15, from 300 yards, at ANGC there is NO forced carry on the second shot

A forced carry is only a forced carry IF the water comes into play on the shot at hand, not three shots down the road.

When that carry is made is down to the player's ambitions and skill. 

Not at all.
So, you would call the pond fronting the green on the 16th hole at Firestone, from the tips, a forced carry on the drive or second shot.
When the feature creating the forced carry is well out of range, it has nothing to do with a golfer's ambitions and skill.

Sometimes the forced carry is the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even 5th shot.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is how many forced carries should a course have.

ANGC has 4-6.
Pine Valley has just about one on every hole and I don't see Pine Valley as a golf course that's not held in the highest regard architecturally, do you ?

Pat

Drop all your obstinate BS, go back and re-read what I wrote.  What is well out of range for one may not be so for another and these things change over time as we all know.  There are a great many forced carries which the ODGs designed for the best players to get over in one more stroke than today's best players do.  In any case, if a hazard or any other type of lost ball situation blocks the entire path leading to a green, that is hole designed with a forced carry.  Just to give you another thick ear, par has no bearing on this.  Call it a par 1 or 10, all must make it to the other side or quit.  

Ciao