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TEPaul

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2009, 11:18:58 AM »
"I see no need to compare or rank the accomplishments and contributions of various respected figures in early American golf.     I will note, however, that your willingness to do so generally and in this case specifically speaks volumes about your lack of perspective and reasonableness in these matters."


Another unfathomable idea on your part. When the discussion involves what anyone wrote about who designed Merion East I see every reason in the world to compare the people doing the writing if some joker is going to question the crediblity of what they wrote!

In that vein I would stack up favorably ANY DAY what Alan Wilson wrote about what those involved with Hugh Wilson on his committee said compared to some EULOGY Whigam came out with thirty years after the fact of spending no more than two days at Ardmore over ten months!

From the incredibly fallacious essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion."

"Another source of the legend may have been a letter written by Alan Wilson 1926, not long after Hugh Wilson’s unfortunate death. The letter was apparently written to a member who was planning to write a history of Merion, and in it Alan Wilson makes the case that his recently deceased brother deserved the lion’s share of the credit for the architecture on both of the courses, at least in comparison to the other members of Wilson’s Committee. He also wrote the course was “homegrown” and designed by the committee without out the help of an outside architect. But he did exempt help that had been provided by those “two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam, the men who conceived the idea of and designed the National Links at Southampton.” As was discussed above, even Alan Wilson acknowledged that these two men Alan Wilson were a great help. Tom Paul posted an excerpt of the letter on the Golf Club Atlas website in a post that was long ago deleted."


Well, essasyist, perhaps you should have gotten in touch so you could've HAD THAT ALAN WILSON LETTER BEFORE you wrote this ridiculous essay. Just another perfect example of half-assed research probably done simply to be able to create some totally preconeived fallacious scenario, premise and conclusion!

Oh, sure, I know because I've heard it on here before-----no way you could get in touch with Tom Paul for an all important factual documentary piece of information because he's too rude. Just another classic Moriarty gaff!



I believe George Bahto once told us H.J. Whigam said in a eulogy to Raynor that he designed Merion's West course. I don't think Seth Raynor ever even saw Merion's West course! But you know the way it goes on here sometimes----eg some people figure if a guy like that happened to have been within two miles of a golf course at some point, he must have designed it somehow!  ;)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:37:14 AM by TEPaul »

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2009, 11:22:29 AM »
Bob, I get where you're coming from. Whigham was without doubt Macdonald's son-in-law. He was CBM's very good friend and colleague. He was also an eminent journalist, far more eminent perhaps in the world of journalism than he was in the world of golf. I suppose we could go through his obit, or reminiscence line by line and determine the accuracy of each item, and if on balance we find the majority of it to be fallacious that we could doubt each and every line.

Or perhaps let us at least consider that he wrote what he believed. Let us consider that the only part of the design of Merion in which he had a part was when he was by the side of CBM, over the course of two days at the site, and when the committee members came up to NGLA. Let us consider that by everyone's admission there was a part played by CBM in creation of the Merion East (the extent of that part being to my mind the sole reason behind pages and pages of discussion and vitriol on this site). And let us consider that an obituary is not the time or place to split hairs, or to make points about the design contributions of folks other than the deceased.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Joe Bausch

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Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2009, 11:23:39 AM »
I've been asked to post the following message from a former member of this web site that is from THE very ordinary university in Columbus:
 ;)


Bob Said: "I disagree with your disagreement. Circa 1897 Whigham was not saying anything particularly original. He was not a pioneer. There were lots of people writing about gca at the time, including Garden Smith, Hutchinson, MacPherson, Park, Emmet, Travis, Leach, Braid, Taylor and others."

Are you sure they were all writing about golf architecture in 1897? Hutchinson and Smith were, but the others, I'd don't believe that is an accurate statement. Park did have a chapter in his 1896 book, but it was somewhat crude. There were very few writing about golf architecture in 1897.

PS: I would have had Henry post this but I don't have his email address.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:58:56 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

George_Bahto

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Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2009, 11:32:31 AM »
".... believe George Bahto once told us H.J. Whigam said in a eulogy to Raynor that he designed Merion's West course. I don't think Seth Raynor ever even saw Merion's West course! But you know the way it goes on here sometimes----eg some people figure if a guy like that happened to have been within two miles of a golf course at some point, he must have designed it somehow!"

Tom, when I first saw the reference to Raynor at Merion, I began asking around to Gil, to you and other familiar with Merion, if you saw anything at Merion (East) resembling work of Macdonald/Raynor, because of what HJW wrote in his eulogy. Everyone answered in the negative.

My next "question" (not knowing anything about Merion) was "what about the West course”.  Same responses.

I NEVER said anything about SR designing anything down there - was just trying to figure out what Whigham was referring to
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2009, 11:41:23 AM »
"I NEVER said anything about SR designing anything down there - was just trying to figure out what Whigham was referring to"


George:

Refresh my memory. Back then you were referring to something that you said H.J. Whigam had said about Raynor at Merion, correct?
 
 
 

TEPaul

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2009, 11:46:23 AM »
Kirk:

I have never called H.J. Whigam a liar for what he said in that eulogy about Macdonald designing Merion Cricket Club nor would I ever say that. All I ever said is I have no idea at all why Whigam would say something like that given ALL the evidence from Merion itself that Wilson and committee did that with some help and advice from M/W over the brief few visits both we and Merion have always known about.

If Moriarty is saying I called Whigam a liar I think he is wrong about that. Mike Cirba called him a liar but I don't believe I ever have.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2009, 01:25:33 PM »
Well, yes, I called him a liar and perhaps that was overly harsh, but now, as of this morning (if you review the Merion Timeline thread pages 40-41, post 1372 onward*), I can also with all confidence call him WRONG.

In any case, he overstated Macdonald's role at Merion in what he said in 1938 by a factor of about 500.

Call that what you will.


* actually, Tom Paul figured it all out a few weeks ago, and it took me that long to catch up but now it's out there in very detailed fashion.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 01:28:27 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2009, 02:02:52 PM »
"In any case, he overstated Macdonald's role at Merion in what he said in 1938 by a factor of about 500.

Call that what you will."




Allrighteee then, a factor of 500 is wrong. He overstated Macdonald's role at Merion by a factor of between 117 and 120.1



Michael Frobusher Cirba:

Eulogies really do remind me of what Bob Crosby said this morning about funerals; they really aren't the time or the place to be engaging in exact facts, you pretty much want to overblow the guy and sometimes by a mile.

It reminds me of a eulogy I once gave for this uncle/cousin of mine. He was a pretty well known man-about-town. So I decided to base my eulogy on the word and etymology of the word "gentleman"="gentle man."

It was a good eulogy, everybody liked it but as the funeral dumped out the front door one of those classic old grande dame broads came up to me and said:

"Tommy, that was a very good eulogy but I knew him all my life and believe me he was neither a gentleman nor a gentle man!"





Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2009, 04:08:23 PM »
Kirk:

I have never called H.J. Whigam a liar for what he said in that eulogy about Macdonald designing Merion Cricket Club nor would I ever say that. All I ever said is I have no idea at all why Whigam would say something like that given ALL the evidence from Merion itself that Wilson and committee did that with some help and advice from M/W over the brief few visits both we and Merion have always known about.

If Moriarty is saying I called Whigam a liar I think he is wrong about that. Mike Cirba called him a liar but I don't believe I ever have.

Tom, understood. I just wanted to step in and make it clear that Whigham can't be tossed aside like he was Macdonald's pet dog. He was a very accomplished man, and a damned interesting one to boot. Finding the articles above was my entree into researching the guy, and he did a lot of very interesting and worthwhile things. As I said above, his involvement in the creation of Merion East was to be there at the same times that Macdonald was, and to witness his contributions. You, Mike, David, Tom, Merion, Joe, and others have all acknowledged that Macdonald had a role. It may have in the end been a minor role, yet it may not have felt that minor at the time, when Whigham was there witnessing it. Whigham wasn't a member of the committee, he didn't spend weeks or years on the course next to Hugh Wilson. And as you said, an obit, or eulogy, or whatever it is called, is a place where you elevate the deceased. It's not lying, but it's not a smoking gun, either. It is, to use a tired phrase, what it is. But it's not BS, and it's not lies.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

TEPaul

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2009, 05:08:35 PM »
"It may have in the end been a minor role, yet it may not have felt that minor at the time, when Whigham was there witnessing it. Whigham wasn't a member of the committee, he didn't spend weeks or years on the course next to Hugh Wilson. And as you said, an obit, or eulogy, or whatever it is called, is a place where you elevate the deceased. It's not lying, but it's not a smoking gun, either. It is, to use a tired phrase, what it is. But it's not BS, and it's not lies."


Kirk:

No I'm sure it certainly is not lie at all, and it is what it is. It is also not an accurate description of who designed Merion East.   
 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2009, 08:35:13 PM »
And, conveniently, a family member. Which is the point.

Bob,

The point of saying it was not a professionally written obituary was that HJW was CBM's son-in-law?   I don't get it?   The obituary appeared in the Metropolitan Magazine, of which H.J. Whigham was the Editor in Chief.   H.J. Whigham had written the obituaries for other notable figures in the past, including Teddy Roosevelt, who had been an editor and contributor to Whigham's magazine.   How could it have been any more a professionally written obituary? 

You really think it is appropriate to simply throw out 40 plus years of journalistic accomplishment and integrity just because CBM was his son-in-law?   The man kept his journalistic bearings through a handful of wars, the great depression and the loss of his wife and he continued to keep his journalistic bearings long after CBM's death.  Yet you insist he would have lost his sense of reality when writing about the death of his octogenarian father-in-law?  And about Merion Cricket Club, of all things?   

With all due respect, Mr. Crosby, give the man a little credit.  He at least deserves that much.

Do you look at Alan Wilson's letter with the same skepticism?   After all, Alan Wilson was writing about his younger brother who had tragically died well before his time.  And Alan Wilson was unlike Whigham in that Wilson was not a professional journalist with decades of experience with this sort of thing.   And unlike Whigham, Alan Wilson was relying on second hand sources for his information.

Don't get me wrong, I do take the Alan Wilson letter seriously.  In fact I take it much more seriously that you guys take the professionally written C.B. Macdonald obituary, written by H.J. Whigham.   So there is no double standard on my part.

Why the double standard on the part of Tom, Mike, Wayne, and others?    And if you do take the Alan Wilson letter at face value, then why the double standard on your part?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 08:39:04 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2009, 10:01:57 AM »
David -

Calm down my friend. BTW, please call me Bob.

My point is a simple one. An obituary written by a son-in-law is something anyone would take with a grain of salt. I'm surprised you think that is surprising.

That applies no less to brothers writing about deceased brothers.

All that should be weighed accordingly as part of the larger evidentiary picture. Neither, alone, is dispositive of anything.

My take on that larger evidentiary picture is that there is no reason to overturn the conventional design attributions for Merion.

You disagree. So be it.

Bob
 

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2009, 10:07:02 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I do take the Alan Wilson letter seriously.  In fact I take it much more seriously that you guys take the professionally written C.B. Macdonald obituary, written by H.J. Whigham.   So there is no double standard on my part.

Why the double standard on the part of Tom, Mike, Wayne, and others?    And if you do take the Alan Wilson letter at face value, then why the double standard on your part?

Because all of the others were still alive when he wrote it.

TEPaul

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2009, 01:44:40 PM »
"And unlike Whigham, Alan Wilson was relying on second hand sources for his information."



Second hand sources?? What a bunch of crap that is. Apparently David Moriarty either doesn't know or is unwilling to admit that Alan Wilson was one of founders of the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association, he worked with his brother Hugh in business every day and he was around Merion constantly back then and throughout. Whigam spent only two days at Merion Ardmore and Alan Wilson spent more time there observing what was going compared to Whigam by a factor of probably a couple of hundred.

Moriarty seems to want people to think that Alan Wilson was from another state or something and was unfamiliar enough with what was going on back then around MCC Ardmore that he would have to rely on others in some kind of second hand information way.

NOTHING could be further from the truth with Alan Wilson and Merion. Implying otherwise seems to just be another of a very long and growing list of intentional distortions and deceptions on the part of David Moriarty.


Mike_Cirba

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2009, 02:02:36 PM »
Tom,

Plus, Alan Wilson wrote that account knowing it was for the Merion history book that Philler was writing, and at the time he wrote it, my understanding is that ALL of the others on the Merion Committee besides his brother were still alive!   That would include Lloyd, Francis, Toulmin, and Griscom, the latter who would become the first President of the Merion Golf Club, Francis, a respected USGA rules official til afer 1950, Toulmin...uh...was the Good Doc Toulmin ;), and Lloyd just went on to run his empire from his castle atop the hill overlooking Merion at Allgates!!

Who was he going to bullshit??

Macdonald, Whigham, and Tillinghast were all alive, as well.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2009, 06:08:27 PM »
Bob,

I assure you I am not the least bit agitated.   Perhaps you have me confused with those two excitable posters from Philadelphia.

You weigh in on whether Merion's conventional design attributions should be overturned.   Not my concern.  If it was my concern, I certainly would not be looking to you or other posters as arbiters.   My goal is to figure out what happened, yet most here seemed more concerned with constantly expressing their opinion that I haven't met whatever burden they imagine ought to have to meet. 

I'd be curious, though, what verifiable contemporary evidence supports the notion that Wilson initially planned and routed the holes at Merion?  Frankly at this point I am not sure there is much it any such evidence. 
_______________________________________________

As for the Alan Wilson statement:

1.   It was in partially incorrect, as it described the overseas trip "as a first step" and implied it occurred in 1910 or shortly thereafter;
2.   It was second hand at least in part, and admittedly so.  He was relying on what the committee had told him.  Alan Wilson was not on the committee, was not at NGLA, and there is no evidence he was at all involved in the planning.

Yet even with all this, I take try to Alan Wilson at his word.   As usual, it is TEPaul and Mike who are ignoring and distorting the words of the men of Merion.   They pretend that Alan Wilson wrote that Hugh was the person in the main responsible for the architecture, implying that this means that M&W were not.  They don't mention that the statement was only comparing Wilson's contribution to that of the rest of the committee, not to M&W.    They also don't mention that first M&W are given credit for their help and advice, and then Wilson and Committee are only given credit only for what M&W did not contribute.   In fact, reading the statement it almost seems as if Alan Wilson did not think that the Committee contributed much of anything to the design process until after Wilson traveled abroad, and we know that did not happen until 1912!  (Emphasis added)

Those two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam, the men who conceived the idea of and designed the National Links at Southampton, ---both ex-amateur champions and the latter a Scot who had learned his golf at Prestwick---twice came to Haverford, first to go over the grounds and later to consider and advise about our plans. They also had our Committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East Course were of the greatest help and value. Except for this, the entire responsibility for the design and construction of the two courses rests upon the Special Construction Commitee, composed of R.S. Francis, R.E.Griscom, H.G. Lloyd, Dr, Harry Toulmin, and the late Hugh I. Wilson, Chairman.
        The land for the East Course was found in 1910 and as a first step, Mr. Wilson was sent abroad to study the more famous links in Scotland and England. On his return the plan was gradually evolved and while largely helped by many excellent suggestions and much good advice from other members of the Committee, they have each told me that he is the person in the main responsible for the architecture both of this and of the West course.




« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 08:17:50 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2009, 08:43:50 PM »

Yet even with all this, I take try to Alan Wilson at his word.   As usual, it is TEPaul and Mike who are ignoring and distorting the words of the men of Merion.   They pretend that Alan Wilson wrote that Hugh was the person in the main responsible for the architecture, implying that this means that M&W were not.  They don't mention that the statement was only comparing Wilson's contribution to that of the rest of the committee, not to M&W.   

David,

You're reading into this what you want to hear.

After first graciously and gratefully noting CB Macdonald's "advise about our plans" (and we all know now exactly what that means, where Macdonald helped them select the best of the five plans the Merion Committee created for the golf course) and "their advice and suggestions as to the layout were of the greatest help and value" (and we also know from the nature of their limited correspondence that it was mostly of an agronomic and construction nature related to soils, grasses, etc.).

He then says, "except for this", which frankly sounds to be sincere, but limited, "the entire responsbility for the design and construction of the two courses rests upon the Special Construction Committee..."

He does not compare his brother against only the other committee members.   He does not exclude anyone from the comparison in the least.

Instead, he simply says that he was told by each of the other committee members that; "...they have each told me that he is the person in the main responsible for the architecture both of this and of the West course."

There is no exclusion of anyone in that comparsion, David.   

You would lead us to believe that this is the only mention of who did what from an architectural standpoint in the Alan Wilson letter, but this is just the tip of the iceberg, as you know.

There is much more to the Alan Wilson reminisce than what you mentioned, including making clear the intention to use NO professionals (which would throw Mr. Barker from the scene), but instead, why don't I just reproduce the entire thing and let people judge for themselves what he said instead of you telling us what it means.   You'll also note that once he begins talking about the wonderful features of the golf course there is no further mention of Macdonald, yet the Committee is credited time and again;


Also, please forgive the CAPS...I copied it from another post and the author was trying obviously to emphasize some points;


Mr. William R. Philler,
Haverford, Pa.

Dear Mr. Philler:-

      You asked me to write you up something about the beginnings of the East and West courses for use in the Club history, and I warned you that I did this sort of thing very badly. You insisted, however, so I have done the best I could and enclose the article herewith. If it is not what you want, please do not hesitate to destroy it and to ask someone else to write you something which will better suit your purpose.
      I am very glad you are writing the club history. It ought to be done because unless put on paper these things which are interesting in themselves are apt to be forgotten,-- and I do not know of anyone who would do the work so well as you.

                  With regards, I am,
                     Sincerely,
                        Alan D. Wilson



Merion’s East and West Golf Courses

   There were unusual and interesting features connected with the beginnings of these two courses which should not be forgotten. First of all, they were both “Homemade”. When it was known that we must give up the old course, a “Special Committee on New Golf Grounds”—composed of the late Frederick L. Baily. S.T. Bodine, E.C. Felton, H.G. Lloyd, and Robert Lesley, Chairman, chose the site; and a “Special Committee” DESIGNED and BUILT the two courses without the help of a golf architect. Those two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. MacDonald and H.J. Whigam, the men who conceived the idea of and designed the National Links at Southampton, both ex-amateur champions and the latter a Scot who had learned his golf at Prestwick—twice came to Haverford, first to go over the ground and later to consider and advise about our plans. They also had our committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions were of the greatest help and value. Except for this, the entire responsibility for the DESIGN and CONSTRUCTION of the two courses rests upon the special Construction Committee, composed of R.S. Francis, R.E. Griscom, H.G. Lloyd. Dr. Harry Toulmin, and the late Hugh I. Wilson, Chairman.

   The land for the East Course was found in 1910 and as a first step, Mr. Wilson was sent abroad to study the famous links in Scotland and England. On his return the plan was gradually evolved and while largely helped by many excellent suggestions and much good advice from the other members of the Committee, they have each told me that he is the person in the main responsible for the ARCHITECTURE of this and the West Course. Work was started in 1911 and the East Course was open for play on September 14th, 1912. The course at once proved so popular and membership and play increased so rapidly that it was decided to secure more land and build the West Course which was done the following year.

   These two committees had either marked ability and vision or else great good luck---probably both—for as the years go by and the acid test of play has been applied, it becomes quite clear that they did a particularly fine piece of work. The New Golf Grounds Committee selected two pieces of land with wonderful golfing possibilities which were bought at what now seems a ridiculously low price (about $700. an acre). The Construction Committee LAID OUT and built two courses both good yet totally dissimilar—36 holes, no one of which is at all suggestive of any other. They imported bent seed directly from Germany when bent turf was a rarity and gave us not only bent greens and fairways and even bent in the rough and this seed only cost them 24 cents a pound, while it sells now for $2.25. They put in water systems for the greens and tees before artificial watering became a routine. They took charge of and supervised all the construction work as a result the two courses were built at the combined total cost of less than $75,000---something under $45,000 for the East and about $30,000 for the West, whereas it is not unusual nowadays for clubs to spend $150,000 or more in the building of one course of 18 holes.

   The most difficult problem for the Construction Committee however, was to try to build a golf course which would be fun for the ordinary golfer to play and at the same time make it really exacting test of golf for the best players. Anyone can build a hard course---all you need is length and severe bunkering—but it may be and often is dull as ditch water for the good player and poison for the poor. Unfortunately, many such courses exist. It is also easy to build a course which will amuse the average player but which affords poor sport for players of ability. The course which offers optional methods of play, which constantly tempts you to take a present risk in hope of securing a future advantage, which encourages fine play and the use of brains as well as brawn and which is a real test for the best and yet is pleasant and interesting for all, is the “Rara avis”, and this most difficult of golfing combinations they succeeded in obtaining, particularly the East course, to a very marked degree. Its continued popularity with the rank and file golfers proves that it is fun for them to play, while the results of three National, numbers of state and lesser championships, Lesley Cup matches, and other competitions, show that as a test of golf it cannot be trifled with by even the world’s best players. It is difficult to say just why this should be so for on analysis the course is not found to be over long, it is not heavily bunkered, it is not tricky, and blind holes are fortunately absent. I think the secret is that it is eternally sound; it is not bunkered to catch weak shots but to encourage fine ones, yet if a man indulges in bad play he is quite sure to find himself paying the penalty.

   We should also be grateful to this committee because they did not as is so often the case deface the landscape. They wisely utilized the natural hazards wherever possible, markedly on the third hole, which Mr. Alison (see below as to identity—W.R.P.) thought the best green he had seen in America, the fourth, fifth, the seventh, the ninth, the eleventh, the sixteenth, the seventeenth, and the eighteenth. We know the bunkering is all artificial but most of it fits into the surrounding landscape so well and has so natural a look that it seems as if many of the bunkers might have been formed by erosion, either wind or water and this of course is the artistic result which should be gotten.

   The greatest thing this committee did, however, was to give the East course that indescribable something quite impossible to put a finger on,---the thing called “Charm” which is just as important in a golf course as in a person and quite as elusive, yet the potency of which we all recognize. How they secured it we do not know; perhaps they do not.

………..The West course was designed particularly for the benefit of “the ninety and nine” and for low cost of maintenance, in both of which respects it was most successful. Very little bunkering was done but the ground was rich in natural contours and hazards and they were utilized in an extremely clever way. While not as severe as the East, it is a real test for even the best of players as was shown in the qualifying round of the National championship in 1916.

It is so lovely to look at that it is a pleasure to play and I like to remember the comment of Mr. C.H. Alison of the celebrated firm of Colt, Mackenzie and Alison—British Golf Architects---who, after going over both courses said: “Of course, I know the East is your championship course; yet while it may be heresy for me to say so, I like this one even better because it is so beautiful, so natural and has such great possibilities. I think it could be made the better of the two.”

   Having spent so many years playing bad golf over good courses I have come to believe that we members of Merion have for all season use about the most attractive golf layouts I have seen; two courses quite dissimilar in character and in play, in soil and scenery, both calling for brains and well as skill, very accessible, lovely to look at, pleasant to play, yet real tests of golf, with excellent bent fairways and fine greens. The East course recognized as one of the half dozen regular choices for National championship play, and the West capable of being made just as exciting a test should that ever been deemed desirable. We certainly owe a debt of gratitude to those two committees which by their hard work, foresight, good judgment and real knowledge of the true spirit and meaning of the game of golf evolved and built so well for Merion.   

« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 09:01:28 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2009, 09:14:47 PM »
Apparently the essayist just has no capacity at all to find, research and analyze important internal club material and to read and/or to understand perhaps one of the most explanatory descriptions of who really was responsible for the DESIGN and ARCHITECTURE of Merion East! The historical attribution of the architect of Merion East has never been even remotely questioned in almost a century and as a result of this specious essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" thankfully renewed research was found that was apparently never really used in the history books of Merion which has thankfully doubly confirmed that the Wilson Committee (Lloyd, Griscom, Francis, Toulmin and particularly Chairman Hugh I. Wilson) routed, designed and constructed the initial phase of Merion East (and has always acknowledged that M/W advised and helped them over a mere four days in a timeframe of ten months (and no more than that). Shortly after that William Flynn's increased and significant architectural influence took the course, along with Hugh Wilson's influence through the next decade and a half or so to the course's ultimate architectural development.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 11:03:29 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2009, 09:20:30 PM »
Tom,

I think you meant, Hugh, not Alan, in your last sentence. 

Shouldn't you be on a beach somewhere wearing a lei?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2009, 09:32:15 PM »
Mike,

It is insulting to Alan Wilson for you to write off his comments about M&W's contributions as simply graciousness as opposed to factually accurate.  And your interpretation of the Wilson's qualification of his credit to the Committee bizarre too comprehend.   

Do you even understand the meaning of the phrase "except for this . . ."?  "This" refers to M&W's contributions.  "Except for" qualifies the remainder of the sentence. 

Except for M&W's contributions the entire responsibly for the design and construction of the two courses rests upon the Special Construction Committee..."   

Alan Wilson is crediting the Committee for that which M&W did not contribute

And the "in the main" language was also very much limited.  Wilson had finished writing about M&W and then writing about the contributions of the Committee.   

Do you understand the use of the conjunction "while . . .?"  In this case, is it used to create context and a contrast, similar to how one might use "although."

"On Wilson's return [from Scotland] the plan was gradually evolved and WHILE largely helped by many excellent suggestions and much good advice from the other members of the Committee, they have each told me that he is the person in the main responsible for the architecture of this and the West Course."

He is drawing a contrast.  Wilson was largely helped by many excellent suggestions and much good advice from the other members of the Committee, BUT . . . he is the person in the main responsible for the architecture of this and the West Course.

He is contrasting the help the committee's contribution to his.    I am not sure how Alan Wilson could have been more clear.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2009, 09:38:55 PM »
David,

I'm perfectly comfortable to let Alan Wilson's entire report on the architecture and origins of the Merion East course speak for itself.

I don't think anyone else here needs either of us to tell them what Alan Wilson actually meant, so why don't we just let others read it and come to their own understandings.

Thanks.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2009, 09:54:07 PM »
I disagree Mike.  You guys have misrepresented it so badly and so often that people need to be reminded not to take what you guys say seriously, and to look closely at the text. You guys need constant supervision.

In fact I just noticed something and think we need a thread. 

Plus, this is supposed to be about Whigham, not Alan Wilson.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2009, 10:33:42 PM »
Just so I can have a copy around, can someone point me to where the entire Eulogy/Essay/Obit/Thang that H.J. wrote, "The Evangelist of Golf" can be found?

Thankee.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2009, 10:38:39 PM »
Just so I can have a copy around, can someone point me to where the entire Eulogy/Essay/Obit/Thang that H.J. wrote, "The Evangelist of Golf" can be found?

Thankee.

Kirk

I second that emotion.

I think context is very important here.

I would ask anyone who has a copy of it to please reproduce it here for our collective study.

Thanks

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Ideal Golf Links, by H. J. Whigham
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2009, 10:45:25 PM »
I disagree Mike.  You guys have misrepresented it so badly and so often that people need to be reminded not to take what you guys say seriously, and to look closely at the text. You guys need constant supervision.


David,

I think that's been sort of the problem here all along, don't you think?

You seem to think everyone else is crazy, or not intelligent enough to form their own opinions, so instead of just producing historical materials in their entirety, in their proper context, and in their historical sequential timelines, you grab little pieces of this, and that, and then proceed to tell all of us what they really mean, instead of having any confidence in your reader to figure it out for themselves.

I know their brains are tiny, and they all just seem to cling so doggedly to their beloved historical myths, but surely you can at least hold back this one time from once again showing them the pitiful error of their ways....   ::)

It might be ultimately more value to the purpose of this thread to finally post the entirety of what Whigham wrote in 1938, since as you say, this thread is supposed to be about H.J. Whigham.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 11:11:38 PM by MCirba »

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