[Sean_A]

Ever since my game at Kiawah the one hole which has really been bugging me is the 15th.  The green is angled to favour a right hand approach. It seems like the perfect opportunity to bring the beach into play with the ideal driving zone being hard on the beach.  As the hole is now, the far right is rough.  If the green were angled a bit more and the fairway shifted a bit right I think the hole would be drastically improved.  This is prime beach front on a course which sits right on the ocean, yet the beach never comes into play.  Perhaps there is some sort of enviro regs against it, which would be a shame.  What do you folks think?

http://www.kiawahresort.com/golf/the-ocean-course/hole-by-hole-review.php#hole15



Ciao

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

From Nick Price during the 2007 Senior PGA Press Conferences:

   Q.  In terms of the wind conditions combined with the golf course itself, does the Ocean Course compare to any particular course in the British Open rota?
   NICK PRICE:  Well, it's different.  One thing that he's got on this golf course which you don't often see on links courses are these raised greens.  And some of these greens are raised up pretty significantly.
   The back nine the 15th hole is undoubtedly my favorite hole on this golf course.  It looks like it's been there for 200 years.    Any time you have a raised green -- and, see, the difference in the British Open when they have a raised green is that the approach is very firm.  So you can pitch the ball 20, 30 yards short of the green and run it up on to the green.
   Here, just because of irrigation, the water drains off the green and the low lying areas are very soft.  So you are forced to play the ball on to the green.  And that's the difference with raising the greens as much as he has here.
   And it just requires incredibly good iron shots.  The 8th hole today it was almost like I had to slice my iron shot to keep from not going left because the way that greens sits on an angle like this and the wind blowing right-to-left, you just are hitting into such a small area, so ?? but there's some wonderful golf holes out here.  But all the greens that were down today, though, you could still play them.

I guess Nick has a different opinion on the hole...

[Anthony Gray]

  Mike,

  Why not put the green closer to the beach? Would it be in danger there?

  Anthony

[PCCraig]

  Mike,

  Why not put the green closer to the beach? Would it be in danger there?

  Anthony

I'm not sure of all the holes on TOC, that I would change the 15th one bit. The set of holes from #14 to #18 are world class.

[Sean_A]

Pat

#15 world class?  I honestly think it was an opportunity missed.  Look at the pic below.  There is loads of rough covering the best angle of attack.  Now it could be a maintenance issue, but that is a lot of potential best target fairway lost to rough.  It doesn't make any sense to me from a strategic PoV.


Mike

I hear what Nick Price is saying though I don't understand why keeping a shot purely aerial when there is space right to effectively put a premium on the drive - which hitting toward the beach would do. 

Ciao 

[Mark Manuel]

Sean,

I like the 15th and sometimes wonder if a hole like this reminds us that there is a reward for being able to work the ball from right to left instead of providing an angle to the green.  You can make an easy par, but to get it close you almost have to work the ball.

Good old shotmaking.

Mark

[Anthony Gray]

  The question is does the green location take advantage of the ocean? And the answer is NO. Is there a reason why the green was not placed closer to the ocean?..............Anyone?

  Anthony

[PCCraig]

The Ocean is like 100 yards away...do you mean the beach??

A good guess would be environmental reasons, or maybe Pete didn't want the last 5 holes playing toward the dunes, and maybe one away?

  The question is does the green location take advantage of the ocean? And the answer is NO. Is there a reason why the green was not placed closer to the ocean?..............Anyone?

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  Pat,

  My guess would be that the green may be in danger of high tides. But hasn't the green on 18 been moved closer to the ocean/beach?

  Anthony

[Mark Pearce]

From Nick Price during the 2007 Senior PGA Press Conferences:   The back nine the 15th hole is undoubtedly my favorite hole on this golf course.  It looks like it's been there for 200 years.    Any time you have a raised green -- and, see, the difference in the British Open when they have a raised green is that the approach is very firm.  So you can pitch the ball 20, 30 yards short of the green and run it up on to the green.
   Here, just because of irrigation, the water drains off the green and the low lying areas are very soft.  So you are forced to play the ball on to the green.  And that's the difference with raising the greens as much as he has here.
   And it just requires incredibly good iron shots. 

I guess Nick has a different opinion on the hole...

His explanation sounds like the reverse of what I'd want to hear.  He likes it because the approach is so soft you can't run a shot in but have to fly it on?  If that's what he meant to say it sounds awful.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I did an interview with Pete and he said that one of his strongest design concepts when building this course, knowing it would be a Ryder Cup site with the best players in the world, was to keep the pro off balance with alternate shot shaping.  On this hole, for example, a left-to-right shot off the tee is called for while the second shot calls for a right-to-left shot.  The entire course is set up this way.  Pete said that if you keep giving the better players the same shot shape, they will take advantage of it.  If you make them alternate left-to-right and right-to-left, it throws them off their game.  It doesn't really effect the average player it does the pros...  I don't think environmental concerns had as much to do with this hole as this design concept.  The only hole that had problems with the Office of Ocean and Coastal Resources is 18 but that was due to a mistake on their part which we corrected in 2002.

[PCCraig]

I did an interview with Pete and he said that one of his strongest design concepts when building this course, knowing it would be a Ryder Cup site with the best players in the world, was to keep the pro off balance with alternate shot shaping.  On this hole, for example, a left-to-right shot off the tee is called for while the second shot calls for a right-to-left shot.  The entire course is set up this way.  Pete said that if you keep giving the better players the same shot shape, they will take advantage of it.  If you make them alternate left-to-right and right-to-left, it throws them off their game.  It doesn't really effect the average player it does the pros...  I don't think environmental concerns had as much to do with this hole as this design concept.  The only hole that had problems with the Office of Ocean and Coastal Resources is 18 but that was due to a mistake on their part which we corrected in 2002.

I was sort of close in my guess. Thanks Mike.

[Sean_A]

I did an interview with Pete and he said that one of his strongest design concepts when building this course, knowing it would be a Ryder Cup site with the best players in the world, was to keep the pro off balance with alternate shot shaping.  On this hole, for example, a left-to-right shot off the tee is called for while the second shot calls for a right-to-left shot.  The entire course is set up this way.  Pete said that if you keep giving the better players the same shot shape, they will take advantage of it.  If you make them alternate left-to-right and right-to-left, it throws them off their game.  It doesn't really effect the average player it does the pros...  I don't think environmental concerns had as much to do with this hole as this design concept.  The only hole that had problems with the Office of Ocean and Coastal Resources is 18 but that was due to a mistake on their part which we corrected in 2002.

Mike

I don't think my idea of bringing the beach into play changes the Dye philosophy at all.  In fact, bringing the beach in play makes shaping shots that much more important.  I also think that if Dye was dead serious about shot shaping, he would find a way to make more of the greens accessible from the ground by insisting on firmer conditions and creating kick ins.

Ciao   

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Firm conditions are somewhat dictated by the grass type.  It's not all that easy to keep 419 Bermuda fast and firm as it needs more water than surfaces in cooler climages.  It's a bit easier with paspalum (which we have now on the greens and tees and are introducing into the fairways)...

[Michael Whitaker]

Firm conditions are somewhat dictated by the grass type.  It's not all that easy to keep 419 Bermuda fast and firm as it needs more water than surfaces in cooler climages.  It's a bit easier with paspalum (which we have now on the greens and tees and are introducing into the fairways)...

Mike's point about grass type is a good one concerning firm conditions. Many courses in the South have design features that cry out for a firm playing surface. Alas, not many can present firm conditions (especially near the greens) due to the amount of watering necessary. The new grasses that are being introduced are helping this situation tremendously. Several courses in the Low Country region of South Carolina have paspalum on their fairways (May River and Belfair West, for example) and the playing surface is far superior to 419... if you like it firm!

The Ocean Course will be greatly enhanced as pasplaum is introduced to the fairways.

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