Toronto GC-Getting Redesigned by Martin Hawtree

[Neil_Crafter]

Hawtree's work at Royal Melbourne East has been mentioned, and he has now parlayed that into work at Kooyonga in Adelaide and Yarra Yarra in Melbourne. This work too has come out of his production of a 'safety audit'. So it would appear that Hawtree, in addition to being a Colt and Mackenzie expert, is also one in regards to Alex Russell and H L Rymill! Hawtree's work at Kooyonga was mostly unsupervised by him and does not fit particularly well into the fabric of the course.
I can't really comment on Toronto as I have never seen the course, I think the Canadians have cause for a little concern as to the end result.
Neil

[Forrest Richardson]

I know Martin to be a good man with a great pedigree. I knew his father and that friendship was a reason I stuck to my passion for golf design. I have never visited Toronto GC, but the photos here certainly make it appear that there is much to behold — and also a lot of adjustment that might benefit the course.

Tom D. — I support your contesting of the architect/club association. I am very often amused at what people "think" they know has gone on, and how much they "know" about the nuances of the work we do at existing clubs. However, I do take some exception to the notion that you cannot (sometimes) create a set of decent plans for a remodel, renovation and/or restoration. While much does happen and play out in the field work, we have been involved in work where very detailed plans (for some areas) have been developed and proven extremely reliable. I don't think you can say that — across the board — plans have little usefulness when it comes to work on an existing course.

[Paul_Turner]

Neil

I think a safety audit is complete BS unless something has fundamentally changed i.e. with routing, housing.  My god, Painswick would have half its holes closed!

Jeff

So perhaps there's  a chance that the original 2nd and 16th greens are on tape, if the redo work was done in '68.  There used to be a Shell website where you could order tapes of the more obscure matches, but it seems to have disappeared.


The reports by Colt and Alison (individually) from 1913(Colt), 1920 and 1927 (Alison) are interesting reading.  Using these with the original Colt routing plan (1911) you can piece together most of the development of the course until Alison left the continent.  Some of it's hard to be sure of and most of the recommended changes involve steadily bunkering the layout....tightening it up.

They are both somewhat critical of the original landscaping work, both architects emphasize that they want natural looking sand faced bunkers with a rugged appearance. Colt uses  "torn out" to describe the appearance he wants, a term he also used at Pine Valley and Hamilton.  His famous bunker at the 8th at St George's Hill is the ultimate "torn out" ridge to produce an awesome bunker...that's the effect he wants at Toronto too.   Alison has some sketches along the same lines, showing irregular faces of bunkers with the sand high up.

I pretty sure that the photo that Jeff Mingay posted is from just after initial construction and you can see why the bunkers were unsatisfactory to Colt if he wanted sand faced...



I haven't seen an later pics of Tornonto.

Anyway I'm sure that Martin Hawtree plans to build sand faced bunkers similar to the recent redo work at Sunningdale, but I don't know how much these will resemble what was left by the time Alison had finished with Toronto.  And I also have no idea where he intends to move some and add some? 

(Form the 1913 report Colt did want an addition of a bold "torn out" bunker to the 11th front hillside, so perhaps that what hawtree has in mind?)

[Forrest Richardson]

Paul says — "I think a safety audit is complete BS..."

OK. Interesting perspective.

What do you tell the club who is paying a higher risk premium? That they should just keep on paying that higher premium?

What do you tell the 24 year old chap who lost his right eye to an errant ball? That a safety analysis by a qualified golf course architect is BS?

I am not suggesting that every club needs a safety audit, but I do feel there is value in such an appraisal if it is conducted with a balanced approach.

[Sean_A]

Paul

I can't believe you site Painswick!  The back to back par 5 scenario is the most dangerous thing I have ever encountered on a course.  It is total madness and there is no question I would alter these holes if given the opportunity.  All the other crossovers work alright though because you can see what is going on.  I don't think it is unreasonable to expect golfers to use common sense before hitting, but to do so they have to be able to see players heading toward them in a shared fairway.

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Paul says — "I think a safety audit is complete BS..."

OK. Interesting perspective.

What do you tell the club who is paying a higher risk premium? That they should just keep on paying that higher premium?

What do you tell the 24 year old chap who lost hiss right eye to an errant ball? That a safety analysis by a qualified golf course architect is BS?

I am not suggesting that every club needs a safety audit, but I do feel there is value in such an appraisal if it is conducted with a balanced approach.

Forrest

You conveniently edited my comment!  I think it's BS for holes that have cleary worked just fine for a long time....unless something has fundamentally changed.  Nothing has changed at Toronto.

It seems some architects can find safety issues easier that others and push work through on that basis.  And you're never going to eliminate accidents .

Sean...You've never gotten Painswick

[Jeff_Mingay]

Paul,

The reports you cite, submitted by Colt and Alison subsequent to initial construction of the course, are invaluable and telling; especially if the intent is to restore and preserve Mr. Colt's vision. How many old clubs possess this type of report, written by the original golf architect (or associate), subsequent to initial construction of the course? Not many I presume. Toronto Golf Club has three!

[Forrest Richardson]

Paul — The time passed without an accident can be a valuable gauge...but it is almost always not scientific. Certainly there are measures taken in extreme cases (crossover holes) that make the design as "safe" as possible. Still, a safety audit can be very valuable...regardles of whether you are trying to preserve or changing a course.

[Ian Andrew]

Jeff,

Have I never given you a copy of the reports?

HenryE,

I can't - I have my reasons.

Paul,

I've been thinking about 14 green for a while.
It used to play from the crown of the hill on #13 to the 14th green site.
I know the hole was "turned 90 degrees by Alison" - when 13 was lengthened - I think you have that plan.
I don't remember any note of the green being rebuilt by Alison - although he definately built 13 at the time.

The surrounds and bunkers were rehaped while Bob Brewster was superintendent - under the guidance of Rene Murylaert.
Again I don't recall the green being done - but that was possible - but I still think unlikely.

[Paul_Turner]

Jeff,

Have I never given you a copy of the reports?

HenryE,

I can't - I have my reasons.

Paul,

I've been thinking about 14 green for a while.
It used to play from the crown of the hill on #13 to the 14th green site.
I know the hole was "turned 90 degrees by Alison" - when 13 was lengthened - I think you have that plan.
I don't remember any note of the green being rebuilt by Alison - although he definately built 13 at the time.

The surrounds and bunkers were rehaped while Bob Brewster was superintendent - under the guidance of Rene Murylaert.
Again I don't recall the green being done - but that was possible - but I still think unlikely.

Ian

I think Colt's angle was more impressive to this hole than Alison's since it brings the gulley into play more.  But Alison's change was worth it: extend the 13th and build such a cool green.  How close is the 14th green to the gulley at the back?  I hope Hawtree plans to clear the brush/trees from behind that green it would be more impressive.


From the Alison report in 1920 the 13th green angle looks different from what's there now (less side on).  When he returns in 1927 he asks for it be pushed further on and I think that's when the current green was built?

(Colt must have visited in 1914 too when he was at Hamilton...but no report?)

[Paul_Turner]

From the Hawtree website:

Hawtree have just finished hosting a small Harry S. Colt Tour for a contingency from Toronto Golf Club, a Harry Colt course opened in 1912 that will go through an extensive renovation project this summer. Also attending were the selected golf course contractor who will perform the specialized works on the Toronto Golf Club. Other invitees included Rinkven Golf Club, Belgium, who is currently having an audit performed by Hawtree on their 36-hole golf course. The Colt tour included St. George's Hill, Sunningdale Golf Club, and Swinley Forest Golf Club as well as Tom Simpson’s creation, New Zealand Golf Club.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that Hawtree will try to make Toronto more heathland in character, particularly from the bunkering point of view since this was what the firm focused on at those English clubs.  I hope they don't go down the St George's Hill route when it comes to the bunkers.

[Sean_A]

One man's opinion of the work at Toronto.

http://canadiangolfer.com/g4g/2010/06/23/course-review-toronto-golf-club-renovation/

Ciao

[Philippe Binette]

Those round traps 20 yards off the fairway at 15 , are they before or after the work of Hawtree...

I hope it was before