[Dan Herrmann]

In Jay Flemma's Bethpage Black thread, Mike Sweeney wrote, "Second hole could replace any of the short 4's at Merion in the 7-12 stretch at Merion except for #11 and you don't miss a beat"

I happen to like that stretch because it acts as a breather for the 14-18 gauntlet of some of the best holes ever desgned.

Now, this is NOT a Merion thread!  More to the point, though is this question:  "Does a great golf course need a stretch of holes that act as a breather - a place you can maybe relax a bit, that doesn't tax every part of your game?"

I'll suggest, "Yes".  I think it helps The Journey and actually challenges the expert golfer to keep his/her head in the game.  How often have we seen golfers sometime lose focus on "easier" holes...

[Michael Blake]

Dan, I don't know.
But I remembered this great post from Lloyd Cole (regarding a Merion thread of all topics--sorry everyone), thought it was analogous (filler songs=let down holes/breathers), so I cut and paste it.  I miss Lloyd's posts.


Lloyd's post:

Note - In was thinking / typing this when Geoffrey and Wayne were discussing Finnegan.

Dr Childs

I hate to alwasys be harking back to my field of (arguable) expertise but can I use an analogy?

I have had trouble with my various record companies over the last 20 years when it comes to choosing the lead cuts, the songs to be singles, or the ones that go to radio. Part of the problem is that I don't put filler on my records.

I'm not alone, neither does Bruce Sprigsteen. He works on a project until all of the songs are up to scratch, and sit together to make an album (read routing). Consequently there are are less, or often no 'stand out' tracks. Are his albums not great? Some would say they are not, some would argue that they are. 'Darkness on the Edge of Town' comes to mind. It was voted by rock critics 'album of the year' and yet it had no significant 'hits'. Springsteen went years without the big hit that was expected of him and only got it when he finally gave in to the record company and gave them something that folk could dance to. It's a funny story because the lyric tells show he felt about it 'This gun's for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark...'

Was the song any better or worse than songs from 'Darkness'? Worse probably, but it succeeded because the company were unanimous in their support for it as the 'signature' track from 'Born in the USA'. This album went on to sell 5 or maybe 10 times as many as 'Darkness'. Is it a better album? I'd say no.

Now look at a band like Bon Jovi from the 1980's. The albums are unashamedly vehicles for 'signature' songs, there will be 3 or 4 such songs on each record. They will stand out, because the rest is filler. The record company will have no problem with their strategy for promotion and the band are not really in the same business as Bruce... which is fine. I'm sure you don't spend a lot of time playing Gary Player courses in Myrtle Beach. But I'm guessing they do quite well for themselves.

Now a course like Kingston Heath is an interesting case. It has great holes, plenty of them and arguably not a single weak one (the members and Mike Clayton disagree - there is one hole they believe he should 'toughen up', he thinks it is fine) but few 'stand out'. Few also make the lsit of 'top Sand Belt holes' because just down the street you have RMW, and courses like Yarra Yarra, which is much weaker, overall than KH, do have stand out holes... Is Yarra Yarra a great course? Absolutely not.

How the architect chooses to aim for greatness depends on whether or not he is willing to accept filler. RMW has several let down holes (please don't ask me to name them because I cannot remember the course that well) but the placement of them in the routing is very canny and one comes away from a round with memories only of the grand holes. Pebble is similar, surely many would agree that if it finished with it's first 5 holes, it would not be as effective in inspring awe. Another example would be Royal County Down which looks, for 15 holes, like it is going to be the ultimate course and then finishes comparatively weakly. If those 3 weak holes could be placed between some of the stronger holes, wouldn't it be rated more highly?

Merion has so many great holes, and that is why so few of them draw attention to themselves.

Great courses must have great holes is a truism. Whether or not a course can be great without all world holes, yet not having conspicuously weak holes is an interesting question, I think.

Hemmingway wrote (I think - I'm paraphrasing heresay here as I can't find it in Google) When you think you've finsihed your work, find your best paragraph and take it out. If it no longer holds together, maybe you didn't have a story in the first place.

I'm not coming to a conclusion here myself either, because I like both types of courses. Pebble and Merion, but I do prefer Merion.
 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 01:30:27 PM by Lloyd_Cole 
 

[Dan Herrmann]

Michael (and Lloyd)  - thanks - good stuff...

Let's look at ANGC - are 6-8 an "easy" stretch that gets the golfer primed for 9-18?

[Tom_Doak]

There are two ways you can look at "breathers".

In the general context, they are the holes which are not as exciting or memorable as the rest.  This does not preclude them being excellent holes, just that they aren't so visually stunning.

In the context of tournament golf, then you have to add in whether the holes are difficult relative to par.  7 & 8 at Augusta were a breather stretch (Dan has obviously never played #6) in that sense ... yet in tournament play they are both "birdie" holes which must be birdied if you don't want to lose ground to the field, and I do not think Masters competitors think of them as breathers at all.

[mike_malone]

 Dan,


    Sometimes people think of #7,#17, #18 at Rolling Green as "breathers". So, I would say what makes a good breather hole is one where you let your guard down and you get whipped!!! The breather hole that really isn't is the best.


   This might also explain the constant need of some people to tweak them to change them from being breathers.

[Bill_McBride]

There are two ways you can look at "breathers".

In the general context, they are the holes which are not as exciting or memorable as the rest.  This does not preclude them being excellent holes, just that they aren't so visually stunning.

In the context of tournament golf, then you have to add in whether the holes are difficult relative to par.  7 & 8 at Augusta were a breather stretch (Dan has obviously never played #6) in that sense ... yet in tournament play they are both "birdie" holes which must be birdied if you don't want to lose ground to the field, and I do not think Masters competitors think of them as breathers at all.

# 7 is still a breather with that sliver of fairway and tiny green surrounded by deep bunkers - now at 450 yards? 

[Brad Swanson]

In the context of competitive, stroke play golf and even more so in match play, there are no 'breathers".  In the context of a leisurely round..., what's a leisurely round (says the burned-out grinder)?

Cheers,
Brad

[Adam Clayman]

I've felt different types of breathers. Holes, Shots, and sensory overloads. The 15th at Pebble, best represents the holes, The original 17th tee shot on Pinon Hills, the shot. And, the ninth at Ballyneal, the sensory overload (close to the visuals Tom states above).

[Ian Andrew]

There is no question that the 11th at Highland Golf Links in Nova Scotia is intended as a breather hole. The first 10 holes at Highland run up and down the landscape like an out of control roller coaster slicing wildly through rolling wooded terrain. The 11th completely contrasts , built on the flat valley bottom almost like the high flat section on the roller coaster ride that sets you up for the next big drop.

The hole was designed as medium length par four – bunkered only for alignment – its fairway the widest on the course with an unusually flat and wide-open green. The 11th is a chance to catch your breath, hopefully make a par, and prepare for the next dizzying run of holes over Highland's rumpled terrain. More importantly it offers the best view of the surrounding mountains on the course. Thompson let the player relax and enjoy the views of this magnificent hidden valley, giving them time to savour this special place.

Roller coaster designers know they must space their thrills with breaks to maximize the enjoyment of the ride. In my opinion architects from the golden era used the breather hole between dramatic sections to relax players before taking them through a second difficult or dramatic section. A well-designed breather hole also builds anticipation for the next section.

Breather holes represent another design technique that modern architecture ignores to the detriment of the game.

[Sean_A]

To me, a breather hole is one where the archie doesn't place severe demands on the golfer.  The hole wouldn't be long or have an abundance of nasty hazards.  The good breather hole just gives the player enough to think about without harassing him, but the good breather holes are ones where its easy to drop shots.  Like putting, this is an annoying thorn in the golfer's side because he knows there is no reason why par isn't nearly always achievable - if not the decent run at a birdie.  In other words, the breather hole lets the golfer hang himself and the golfer KNOWS this is exactly what happened.  I suspect the element of temptation is much more present than it is given credit for on these sorts of holes. 

I think they are critical elements to design - to the point where a course can have more breather holes than "testing" holes.  Isn't this what so many GB&I courses do so well?  The best of these courses often have a blurry line between what is a breather and what is a tester.  What do we call these sorts of courses - charming, yes thats it.   

Ciao 

[Tim Gavrich]

For those who have played it, does Pine Valley offer any "breather" holes?

On my favorite courses, there are breather holes that almost always take the form of short par 4s.  They are not always reachable but they offer, from the tee, a clear birdie chance that causes the golfer to become too complacent and perhaps hit a squirrelly one off the tee.  It is a frequent gripe of players that they play the tough holes much better than they play the easy holes, relatively.  The false sense of confidence into which these less outwardly imposing holes lulls us is our downfall, oftentimes.

[archie_struthers]

 


Always thought 10-12 at the Valley was a great example of this theory.   The "deep breath before the plunge "  for you LOTR's fans.

Ebb and flow you know!

[Ross Tuddenham]

Not sure it could ever be described as a breather because it is at the end of the round but does the 18th at The Old course have the elements of a hole that would be described as a breather?

Think about it you have a shortish par 4 hole with a fairway about 150 yards wide with no bunkers, how could it go wrong?  Not to mention some challenges at the green.

[Mike Hendren]

The short seventh at Victoria National Golf Club is a good example, offering a visual respite and a less demanding shot requirement compared to the balance of the course:



The water right of the green is not in play.

Bogey

[Patrick Glynn]

Some interesting posts on here.

Personally, I know I make my score around 11-13 at Lahinch - certain days I can be 1 under for them, others +5!

An opinion I do stand by is that sometimes "breather" holes get a free pass. To my mind, none fit this more than the 9th at TOC. I think it is a poor hole, has very little architectural interest, the green is a flat circle in the middle of nowhere & if it was on any other course it would get panned.

[PCCraig]

#9 and #10 of the member's course at TCC-Brookline. This is probably why for tournaments players walk straight from #8 to #11 and #9's ladies tee becomes the driving range.

#9 is very straight forward and probably my least favorite on the course, being its an uphill drive to an uphill blind second shot.

#10 is a breather in that it is somewhat easy at +/- 300 yards, but very fun none-the-less with a very cool green.

[Dan Herrmann]

There are two ways you can look at "breathers".

In the general context, they are the holes which are not as exciting or memorable as the rest.  This does not preclude them being excellent holes, just that they aren't so visually stunning.

In the context of tournament golf, then you have to add in whether the holes are difficult relative to par.  7 & 8 at Augusta were a breather stretch (Dan has obviously never played #6) in that sense ... yet in tournament play they are both "birdie" holes which must be birdied if you don't want to lose ground to the field, and I do not think Masters competitors think of them as breathers at all.

# 7 is still a breather with that sliver of fairway and tiny green surrounded by deep bunkers - now at 450 yards? 

I was talking about the original MacKenzie/Jones design...  (And no, I've never played there )

[Lou_Duran]

"Does a great golf course need a stretch of holes that act as a breather - a place you can maybe relax a bit, that doesn't tax every part of your game?"

I don't know about a "stretch", but a few intermingled, yes.  I think that one of the reasons we tend to prefer Classic period golf courses is that many tended to have two or three filler or connecting holes in less exciting parts of the site which provided some relief as well as contrast to the more sophisticated and difficult holes on the better ground.  Specially at the high end of gca in the modern era, with abundant budgets and advanced construction techonlogy, 18 so-called signature holes are often demanded by the clients and these "breather" holes have mostly disappeared.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

I don't define such holes as "breathers" but more of "change of pace" holes. For example, a great golf course is akin to a great baseball pitcher -- can vary speed, location and variety of different pitches. A great golf course does no less -- the "change of pace" hole doesn't necessarily mean easier per se, but it does mean that whatever type of shot(s) you have played just previously will be vastly different to keep you guessing and avoid predictability.

[Dan Herrmann]

I count my blessings that my 5-year old Hanse-designed course has a couple of breather holes (7 & 16 come to mind).  Honestly, I didn't know that so many felt that they weren't designed these days.

Matt Ward - that's well said!

[tlavin]

I think of breathers as holes that are preceded and followed by extremely demanding holes.  At Beverly, for example, 12, 13 and 14 come after a brutally hard 600 yard par 5 hole with a murderous green and are followed by the four best finishers in Chicago.  That is not to say that you won't encounter difficulty in the 12-14 stretch, you will, but you will also have a fair chance at a birdie or two if you're a great player.  Once you tee it up at the 465 yard 15th, you really have to be hitting it great to have any chance to score well.

[Mike Hendren]

Terry,

The fact that you cite 12-14 as breathers at Beverly is a real testament to the strength of that golf course.  While I agree, above the hole at 12 is death if the pin is up front.  Also, for the life of me I cannot read a putt on the 14th - it so cleverly canted into the right-hand hillside.  I've only played Beverly once about seven years ago, but I vividly recall every hole and how much I enjoyed your fine golf course.  The closing nine in particular is outstanding with the unique crumpled fairways of the 11th and 15th standing out in my memory.

Kindest regards,

Bogey

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan -

I've never liked the term, mostly because implicit in its use is the notion that its opposite exists or can potentially exist, i.e. a perfect golf course with "18 great holes"- a notion/ideal that makes literally no sense and that has caused much more harm than good. It's not in keeping with the natural order of things.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

I agree with you there.

When I worked for Pete Dye he talked about clients wanting new courses to have "18 postcards".  This was a reference back to Pine Valley which back in the 1970's and 1980's sold a souvenir pack of 18 postcards -- one of each hole on the course -- a not-so-subtle implication that they were the only course good enough that every hole deserved a postcard.

There is an ebb and flow to every property and not all of the holes will have the same amount of pizazz.  Some architects tend to think that you've got to do the most work on the plainer stretches to "punch them up."  I'm okay with the ebb and flow, as long as each hole adds something to the diversity of the course, and you can't just get sloppy.  And, as I tried to hint earlier, I think it's okay for there to be a couple of obvious "birdie" holes in the mix, because it's not so easy for good players to make birdies when they are expected to make them.

[Brad Swanson]

And, as I tried to hint earlier, I think it's okay for there to be a couple of obvious "birdie" holes in the mix, because it's not so easy for good players to make birdies when they are expected to make them.

This is precisely the point I was trying to make earlier.  My club here in Madison is loaded with holes that most here would call breather/easy holes (4 par 4s under 320 yds on the back 9 alone), but one's expectations to make up ground on those holes often winds up causing the most damage.

Cheers,
Brad

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