[Chip Gaskins]

Obviously #7 (the last remaining MacDonald green) is a Redan, but why would #17 also not be considered one?

From the tee


From behind

[Tom_Doak]

It's got the 45-degree angle, and the bunker front left, but it doesn't have the tilt to the green so that you can play to the right edge and funnel the ball down to the center.  (Nor does it bank up enough to hold a high cut very well.)

However, it is interesting to note that no one ever mentions this as a weakness of Shinnecock, having two par-3's which are almost exactly the same in plan -- and neither of which works all that well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

They sure play differently, and that's without factoring in the prevailing winds.

But, I'd say that they come from the same template mold, and that they're just variations on the theme.

I agree that the missing cant of the green disqualifies # 17 as a true redan.
And, there's nothing fortress like about the hole.
You certainly don't get the same feeling as you do at Piping Rock, NGLA or NB.

[jkinney]

A well struck shot, unless it has huge right to left spin, will often end up in the right bunker when hit at the right half of the green. That in itself is hugely un-redan-like.

[TEPaul]

Chip Gaskins:

We really don't think that #7 is a Macdonald green. We are not completely sure but we think it may be a green completely rebuilt by Flynn exactly in the same place as the old Macdonald green. In our opinion, probably the closest green to Macdonald's preceding course is #3.

It is very interesting to consider how Flynn built present day Shinnecock by staging in new holes and revolving out Macdonald holes while all the time keeping 18 holes in play for the club throughout the entire process. It was very much a "no course downtime" process.

[Mike Hendren]

IMHO the 17th is closer to a redan than the 7th. 

Mike

[Brad Swanson]

That pin placement looks crazy, like something someone might see in an end of season, big-cup scramble.  Wow, I bet I might be the first person to mention Shinnecock and big-cup scramble in the same sentence ever!

Cheers,
Brad

[Kalen Braley]

I took a few aerial snapshots as a comparisons

The first one is #7, the 2nd #17

[Carl Rogers]

I have been thinking about this thread a while and ....

1. Doesn't the true redan always accept a well struck shot with a little bit of right to left action making the holes very playable?

2. Don't these two holes, not being true redans, make these greens much harder to hit?

3. And thus, part of what makes Shinnecock such a hard course with high slope and stroke ratings?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carl Rogers,

I think the prevailing wind helps you on # 7.

I think it hurts you on # 17.

[jkinney]

Carl Rogers,

I think the prevailing wind helps you on # 7.

I think it hurts you on # 17.

Patrick is spot on. One plays against the SW trade on 7, but the wind comes ever so slightly from the right, thereby guiding the ball right to left. On 17 the trade quarters from the left, pushing balls towards the yawning right greenside bunker, and there isn't the normal right to left cant of the ground on the right that one sees in a true redan. I find 17 to be the better hole of the two. 7 suffers mightily by comparison to National's 4 right next door.

[mike_beene]

I don't think the redan is relevant to todays game unless there is a gale blowing.We fly over the fortification like a RTG pond on a par 3.But I bet 15 at NB was terrifying to the player of 1890.Of all the templates,this one is my least favorite

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carl Rogers,

I think the prevailing wind helps you on # 7.

I think it hurts you on # 17.

Patrick is spot on. One plays against the SW trade on 7, but the wind comes ever so slightly from the right, thereby guiding the ball right to left. On 17 the trade quarters from the left, pushing balls towards the yawning right greenside bunker, and there isn't the normal right to left cant of the ground on the right that one sees in a true redan. I find 17 to be the better hole of the two. 7 suffers mightily by comparison to National's 4 right next door.

JKinney,

I've always been fascinated by an architect's use of prevailing winds, be it at Seminole, Bandon/Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills, Shinnicock, NGLA and many others.

From the back tees on # 4 at NGLA I certainly prefer playing with the prevailing wind/s.
From the front tee, depending upon the hole location, winds from other directions make for interesting play.
I can't imagine playing # 4 into a prevailing wind, especially a heavy wind off the sea.

While the putting surface is more challenging on # 7 versus # 17, I agree that # 17 is the more difficult hole with prevailing winds.

[Sean_A]

I don't think the redan is relevant to todays game unless there is a gale blowing.We fly over the fortification like a RTG pond on a par 3.But I bet 15 at NB was terrifying to the player of 1890.Of all the templates,this one is my least favorite

Mike

Wow!  The Redan isn't relevant for who?  You talk about flying the ball which is of course an option, but the entire point of a Redan is that a grounder can be played successfully for those who choose (or can't) not to carry the ball near the pin.  So long as wind exists and courses are presented in f&f conditions the Redan will always be not only relevant, but bloody brilliant design.  Additionally, let us not forget that the Redan concept can work very well for holes of all yardages.  How many times have you seen par 4 and 5s with greens based on the Redan concept?  Frankly, the concept is one of the stalwarts of design.  Sort of like jazz standard.  Everybody knows it and most love it - for a very good reason.    

Perhaps if archies implemented all the key aspects of a Redan while designing then folks wouldn't say the Redan concept is irrelevant. 

Ciao

[mike_beene]

Sean,my perspective,and lets use the original at NB,is that the big deep bunkers or so far short that they really are not in play(unless a gale is blowing).The way the balls fly now wind is much less a factor,and if we are playing reasonably well we fly the ball to a number.If that landing place is on the front right so be it,but aren't those bunkers still 30 or 40 yards back?I ahve played many rounds in Scotland over the years,and now that there is irrigation,the air game is much more consistent.The 100 yard running shot sounds cool,but the weather has to be awful for it to be the best option.I cant imagine wanting to land the ball 10 yards past the big bunkers and run it 50 yards.Dont the Shinnecock redans play differently visually(without so much elevation?)

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't think the redan is relevant to todays game unless there is a gale blowing.We fly over the fortification like a RTG pond on a par 3.But I bet 15 at NB was terrifying to the player of 1890.Of all the templates,this one is my least favorite

Mike,

The shot values presented by the Redan remain relevant irrespective of whether a gale wind is blowing.

If you've ever played the 4th at NGLA with a variety of hole locations you'd change your mind.

[mike_beene]

I haven't had the chance to play the 4th at NGL.Is it as blind as NB? I think there is a lot of strategy at the greens of Redans I know.My reaction to NB 15 is that the down and up short of the big bunkers is much hillier than I expected,but that(and I have only played it probably 6 times) the short bunkers are irrelevant to play unless someone is a higher handicapper,and then they are impossible.Probably just my least favorite of the copies I have seen,as opposed to Edens,Birratzs,Capes,etc.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I haven't had the chance to play the 4th at NGL.Is it as blind as NB?

Mike, No, it's not as blind as NB.

The tee is at approximately the same elevation as portions of the green.

# 3 at Piping Rock is more like NB in that the tee is well below the green.

I think there is a lot of strategy at the greens of Redans I know.

My reaction to NB 15 is that the down and up short of the big bunkers is much hillier than I expected,but that(and I have only played it probably 6 times) the short bunkers are irrelevant to play unless someone is a higher handicapper,and then they are impossible.Probably just my least favorite of the copies I have seen,as opposed to Edens,Birratzs,Capes,etc.

I think one of the neat things about CBM/SR/CB courses is that in one round you can play:

Shorts
Edens
Biarritzs
Redans (regular & reverse)

It makes for a diverse and interesting round

[TEPaul]

By the way, redanish or not, would you just look at how our original Flynn greenspace restoration recommendation that was accepted and executed looks and plays on that 17th green!

What do you think? Pretty cool, huh? When you see the original greenspace restoration recommendation on the right back corner of #5 if and when it gets executed you might have a mini-golf architectural orgasm it's so cool!

[Chip Gaskins]

I was in the cavernous right bunker on #7 in my attempt to hit the "cut shot" that I am ill-equipped to hit.  I lipped out getting up and down and was quite happy with bogey.  I hit it right at the pin on #17 and it bounced long and left and made par with a chip.

Tom-

What exactly did you recommend on #17 to restore it back to they Flynn greenspace.

Also, is there something I can read about the 7th not being the original MacDonald green versus Flynn digging it up and building a very similar replica?

Is this a good picture to help you explain what might happen on #5?

[Gene Greco]

                                              What the heck is the matter with some of you?

You are drunk from reading too much of this stuff. Go buy a new wedge. Get out and PLAY. Better yet go find some pretty girls to admire.

                                                      #17 at Shinnecock is not a Redan.

However, it is the most improved hole on the course with the brilliant work which was recently done there.  It is now an overall better hole IMHO than #7 (THE Redan) which is the most overrated hole on the course.

The green at 17 is more like a reversed cant of my favorite and I think best hole on the course - #13. Go look at the two greens - they are very similar. There is a very narrow area mid green which is sans Flynn potato chip. The 17th is ever so slightly more elevated on the right side of this area and wisely so in order to receive the ball which has been abused by the brutal prevailing L-R crosswind. The reverse is so at #13 with respect to the cant of the mid point of the green but the wind is in your face.

The back left area of #17 is actually an easier pin than most on that green and the back right of both greens (17 and 13) have subtle backstops at the very back right. Both have the potato chip frontal and back left areas.

As far as #7 is concerned, it's only hope for salvation from being the out of control carnival ride it is in its present state no matter what the green speeds are set at is to have a more direct approach to the green from the tee. I said this twenty someting years ago the first time I played it and believe it to be no different today. The hole is just not right.  

[Chip Gaskins]

Gene-

Tell me how you really feel

Hey, I wasn't saying either hole was bad.  I played Shinnecock for the first time last week and immediately put it at the top of my list as the best course I have ever played.  I never thought I would say that after Pine Valley and Royal County Down, but Shinnecock is that good, and better.

I though #17 was a great hole.  The green was much more interesting that #7, even though not as "famous".

Here are few more pics of #13 green you were talking about:

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