Can you study GCA from a cart?

[Rob Rigg]

Ben,

Is there something wrong with being a "cart golfer"? You seem to be implying that there is something wrong with Casey Martin if he is called a "cart golfer" - I think that is a ridiculous and unfair statement. He cannot walk the course for physical reasons which is extremely unfortunate, my wife cannot walk a full 18 because she has physical problems that prevent her from doing so as well. Thus, she is a "cart golfer" there is nothing wrong with that. The only way either of them, and thousands of others, can play a full round is by using a cart.

Do I think that my wife and Casey have to miss out on a wonderful part of the golfing experience because they HAVE to take a cart, absolutely. I know my wife would walk if she could and I would imagine that Casey would as well. The fact that he or anyone takes a cart says nothing about their skill or passion for hitting a little ball into a hole that is some distance away.

You can scoff at a scientific study if you want - and you can also read my post that said walkers score better than cart golfers, but those who carry score higher than those who push a cart - maybe you and some others on the site do not feel more tired after walking and carrying versus pushing a cart or riding in a cart but I know I do, and I have been an elite athlete my entire life, and I know it is proven in a scientific study. Push carts allow thousands of people with back problems and other physical restrictions to walk when they play, and a lot of people carry who probably should not. The fact is, almost any course is walkable so you can walk if you want to play "golf".

If you ride you are a cart golfer, what is the big deal? Clearly, the activity of playing cart golf is different from playing walking golf.

Of course you can golf one day and play cart golf the next. If you play golf you are a "golfer" if you play cart golf then you are a "cart golfer". You can call yourself whatever you want, I could care less.

There is nothing impractical, untrue or patently malicious about that statement at all. They are two different experiences and two different games. I would imagine that the majority of the golfing population in this country could give a crap whether someone called them a "golfer" or "cart golfer" because there is nothing "wrong" with being a "cart golfer".

If you want to golf, then walk and play the game as it was intended. Otherwise you are not golfing, because walking is an intergral part of the game.

[Ben Sims]

.
There is nothing impractical, untrue or patently malicious about that statement at all. They are two different experiences and two different games. I would imagine that the majority of the golfing population in this country could give a crap whether someone called them a "golfer" or "cart golfer" because there is nothing "wrong" with being a "cart golfer".

If you want to golf, then walk and play the game as it was intended. Otherwise you are not golfing, because walking is an intergral part of the game.

Robb,

I think you're missing the implication of that statement.  I understand we're talking semantics here.  However, by saying that someone is a "cart golfer", it insinuates by omission that they are unauthentic and dispassionate towards the game.  This statement couldn't be further from the truth. 

I'll be honest here and set forth my life's plan  To fly in the Air Force for as long as I can, and then quit it all and become a caddie at Bandon for as long as I can carry a bag.  So let's be clear when I say that I am passionate about walking and it's effects on the golfer.  But let's also be honest that calling someone a "cart golfer" is derogatory.  The fact that you can't see that makes yours and others' like your argument a hollow one.  One that does, in fact, have implication of laziness and snobbery.  One than insinuates a lack of sophistication to those of us that do use a cart occasionally.

[Kirk Gill]

Can you study GCA from a cart?

Of course.

I've had the opportunity to be driven around a golf course or two by an architect who was taking the time to show me the characteristics of individual holes, describing the thought process behind the holes, etc. The study of architecture takes place in the mind, and walking about to see it is not strictly necessary. The study of GCA and playing golf are not the same thing. You can certainly appreciate GCA or even study GCA while playing. I would go so far as to say that in my opinion walking and playing is a significantly better way to study GCA than riding a cart and playing. But if you're studying and NOT playing, a cart can take you about effectively, quickly, and you can go back and forth and get a quality look at a hole from a lot of different perspectives quickly. And if someone is taking time out of their day to show their work to you, the cart allows for more holes to be seen, more perspectives to be gained. And amazingly, when you are studying GCA with a cart there's nothing preventing you from parking the damn thing, getting out and walking around! You can then get back in the cart and move along.

[Rob Rigg]

Ben,

Again - I disagree with your word selection - "derogatory" - and your line of reasoning - "by saying that someone is a "cart golfer", it insinuates by omission that they are unauthentic and dispassionate towards the game."

Is the term "High Handicapper" derogatory? Not on its own because it summarizes a golfers general ability in two words. Is the term "hack" derogatory - yes. The use of the term "cart golfer" to describe a golfer who takes a cart whenever he plays is not derogatory, it describes how some people choose to play.

If walking is a part of the authenticity of the game then a bonifide "cart golfer" is not playing the game as originally conceived or intended. The term says nothing about their passion, knowledge, or desire to hit a little ball a set distance into a hole 18 times over the course of a few hours. And there is nothing wrong with cart golf or being a cart golfer, if that is how one chooses to play.

"Hollow argument" - Golf is a walking game, walking has always been an element of the golfing experience, there is nothing hollow about defining golf as a walking game and therefore "walking golfers" as "golfers". It is a logical progression.

Cart golf is a different game, and a different experience, if you take a cart whenever you play then you are playing cart golf and therefore a cart golfer. If you never take a cart, then you are a golfer who is playing the game as it was originally intended to be played - right?  And if you always run when you play then you are a "speed golfer" and your appreciation of GCA over the course of a round is less than either the cart golfer or walking golfer because you finish in less than an hour.

I know people who take carts when they play and they call it "cart golf". Are they being derogatory towards themselves? If you normally walk but  play a course that is carts only then it is a cart golf course where you play cart golf and therefore you are a "cart golfer for a day". If you take a cart whenever you play then you are a "cart golfer" - and there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not "golf" as originally conceived.

"Laziness" - what's lazy about walking. What is lazy, is calling "cart golf" - "golf" because it is a different game and should be appropriately titled as such.

"Snobbery" - again - I disagree. You are branding those who believe that golf is a walking game as snobs because a term has been created to define people who play "cart golf" as "cart golfers"? I am sure there are walking golfers who are snobs, and there are cart golfers who are snobs, and private club members who are snobs, and scratch golfers who are snobs. "Cart golfer" is not a term born out of snobbery, it is a term used to define one who plays a new and different form of golf.

If you occassionally use a cart then are you a cart golfer? No, why would you be?
If you always use a cart then are you a cart golfer? Yes, and I would imagine you would define yourself as such.
If you occassionally use a cart then do you play cart golf sometimes? Yes, what's the big deal?
If you are in business or play tournaments with friends then it is likely that you have to play cart golf sometimes, and if everyone else is riding then it is really hard not to. Again, what's the big deal?

I do not "look down" with "snobbery" on people who play cart golf, that is their choice, but I firmly believe that they are missing part of the golfing experience because golf was intended to be played by walking and that is how one can get the most out of the game. I hope more people committed to playing "cart golf" will give "walking golf" a chance because that is "golf" and I think they will enjoy it more while reaping the health, social, scoring, etc. benefits.

You can call me whatever you want, this is a discussion board and you are entitled to your opinion. Based on your comments, you have used my posts to create a situation where you feel insulted because you have supposedly been wrongly bucketed as a "cart golfer" because you take a cart once in a while with friends.

There is no "name calling" in any of my posts and I do not believe my logic in describing "cart golf" as a different form of the game is unfounded or illogical.

If you can refute my supposedly "hollow" statement that "cart golf" is different from golf as it was originally intended to be played, by walking, then please do so instead of throwing words around that are frankly inappropriate in the context of this discussion.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think 'cart golfer' is not a nice term and so is derogatory, but certain words hurt. Someone called me an invalid once and that hurt, I called someone's course 'dull' and that hurt him. I agree its better to walk, but come on it's no big deal, we have gone miles off topic from the initial question...the answer quite clearly yes you can study GCA from a cart, if during the round of golf you have to stay on a path then the study is severley interrupted. I played Pebble Beach and wanted to walk but it was cart only and on paths, I felt like being on a monorail..yes it probably ruined it.

[Brett Morris]

You can 'see' the course when riding in a cart.

But walking is a completely different experience. Walking provides the environmental stimuli that feeds the mind.

If you want to study a course - feel  a course - you need to walk.

Walking engages the senses.

Cheers - Lyne

I couldn't agree more.

Earlier this year I fulfilled a dream to see Cypress Point up close and personal by walking, at our own pace.

Every hole was viewed at different locations in the fairway to try and observe the original design intent.

Same at Augusta several years ago, I must of walked the course 4 times in a day.  You do see more of the golfers, and design, perspective when walking IMO.

[Leo Barber]

I think 'cart golfer' is not a nice term and so is derogatory, but certain words hurt. Someone called me an invalid once and that hurt, I called someone's course 'dull' and that hurt him. I agree its better to walk, but come on it's no big deal, we have gone miles off topic from the initial question...the answer quite clearly yes you can study GCA from a cart, if during the round of golf you have to stay on a path then the study is severley interrupted. I played Pebble Beach and wanted to walk but it was cart only and on paths, I felt like being on a monorail..yes it probably ruined it.

Good to see common sense return to the thread and the initial question recanted.  My only trip to Pebble Beach was unfortunately "walking" the cart paths.  Enjoyed the experience but have little appreciation for the architecture.  A fond memory was sitting on the balcony of the Clubhouse looking over the 18th and Carmel Bay - a course and a scene I had often watched on TV from a continent away.  Have visited Cypress Pt, St Andrews, Royal Dornoch, Lahinch and Ballybunion under similar circumstances.  Wonderful experiences, met some learned folk and expanded my knowledge on the turf management front but again little appreciation for the true architecture.  For a naive young man from New Zealand I was simply delighted to be allowed through he gates of these great courses never appreciative of the fact that I could actually have played them.   

[Anthony Gray]

 This thread says "Study" not "Play". It is difficult for me to do both at the same time.

  Anthony

[Steve Lang]

  I've given my opinion to the thread question in a previous post. (Simply.. YES)

On this unfortunate "cart golfer" tangent, last time I looked, the Rules of golf simply defined the game as:

Rule 1-1
The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.

So there really is no distinction between golfers and cartgolfers, both do play the same game. 

Its a game to play, a sport to participate in, a profession for some.

Its the Committee's choice,.. leave it at that comrade.

[Ben Sims]

Robb,

No name calling, no insults.  Just frank and heated debate, that's all.  I live for battle

In that vein, I propose a new vernacular.  Last Friday when I was on the course, I was "walk golfing".  On Saturday, I was "cart golfing."  Be sure and use the adjective in front of the word "golf" every time you play to describe what you were doing.

Also, since the game was invented on links, that means I was "parkland golfing" at Brackenridge park.  At Bandon in April, I was "links golfing" but only on Pac Dunes and Bandon Dunes, I was back to "parkland golfing" at Trails.  Since there were no formal holes, my afternoon at Sheep Ranch was "cross country golfing."

My point Robb, is that it's a slippery slope to start defining EXACTLY what golfing is.  By getting in a debate about "how the game was intended", well, that means my little league wasn't baseball, but "metal bat baseball." Either way, I'm digging your enthusiasm on the subject.  We need more people that are passionate about the game like you.

As for GCA, it's become quite clear over the course of the thread that you can study a course from a cart as well as on foot.  Searching out angles on certain holes may be even easier with a cart.  So as to more quickly adjust your sightline. 

[Rob Rigg]

Ben,

Last post from me on this one since I have to go to Bend and play some "walking golf/golf" at Juniper and Tetherow 

The reason "walking golf" is simply "golf" is because that is how the game was originally conceived and played. If anyone disagrees on that then I respect their opinion, but the above is my opinion and it is logical. "Cart golf" is different from "walking golf/golf", just like "flag football" or "touch football" is different from "tackle football/football", and "roller hockey" is different from "ice hockey/hockey".

The purpose of having a term to dilineate between "walking golf/golf" and "cart golf" is not insulting to one or the other. Bandon Dunes is a golf resort, it does not need to be classified as a walking golf resort because golf is a walking game (although if you need a cart it certainly helps to know you can't take one there before making the trip!). Wolf Creek is a cart golf course because you cannot walk the course. There are hundreds of "cart golf courses" in Florida as well and elsewhere in this country. It is cart golf because you need a cart to play there.

You can study a golf course in a myriad of ways. From photos, from reading about them, from taking a cart, from walking, from slithering like a snake across the course (as someone mentioned), to each his own.

The interesting debate is on the optimal method. And of course there is no "correct" answer to that one.

Apologies to Anthony for another one of his threads spinning off into outer space - for some reason that seems to happen from, ahem, time to time around here.

[Anthony Gray]

  A cart golfer sees more of the course than a walker.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

I too think Rob has gone a little overboard with the coining of cart golfer. If we go back to Kalen referring to forms of basketball where you play half court or without the benefit of having to foul out. The games are called half court basketball and pickup basketball. The participants are called ball players.

That said, I find the noted parts below bordering on ridiculous.

Robb,

I think you're missing the implication of that statement.  I understand we're talking semantics here.  However, by saying that someone is a "cart golfer", it insinuates by omission that they are unauthentic and dispassionate towards the game.  This statement couldn't be further from the truth. 

Ben, What are you smoking? the addition of the simple adjective cart means unauthentic and dispassionate?

I'll be honest here and set forth my life's plan  To fly in the Air Force for as long as I can, and then quit it all and become a caddie at Bandon for as long as I can carry a bag.  So let's be clear when I say that I am passionate about walking and it's effects on the golfer.  But let's also be honest that calling someone a "cart golfer" is derogatory. 

I think if you make yourself familiar with what Rob writes you will understand that he is not intending derogation, only distinction.

The fact that you can't see that makes yours and others' like your argument a hollow one.  One that does, in fact, have implication of laziness and snobbery.  One than insinuates a lack of sophistication to those of us that do use a cart occasionally.

Snobbery? I can see it implies laziness to a certain extent, especially towards those that are actually being lazy. However, my feeling is that the cart riders behavior has far more snobbery towards the walkers than the other way around.

And by the way, the ball players that would take obvious advantage of the no foul out nature of pick up basketball are called cheaters.

[Anthony Gray]

Apologies to Anthony for another one of his threads spinning off into outer space - for some reason that seems to happen from, ahem, time to time around here.

  Rob....It is not my thread . And Garland's post up moves are nothing to be scared of.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Apologies to Anthony for another one of his threads spinning off into outer space - for some reason that seems to happen from, ahem, time to time around here.

  Rob....It is not my thread . And Garland's post up moves are nothing to be scared of.

Unless of course you decide to obviously take advantage of the no foul out nature of the pick up game.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  Garlan,

  I could run circles around you. It would take you ten secounds to go from the key to the box. No chance. When you are ready, me and Kalen vs you and Bill. Make it take it for a benjimen.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

  Garlan,

  I could run circles around you. It would take you ten secounds to go from the key to the box. No chance. When you are ready, me and Kalen vs you and Bill. Make it take it for a benjimen.

  Anthony

The problem with you running circles around me is that I don't have to defend you while you are behind the back board. Furthermore, my shooting percentage will be very near 100% given the distance I will be shooting from. You will have to shoot from farther out, and I could care less if you shoot 90% (which you won't) as you will still be falling behind.

[Anthony Gray]

  Garlan,

  I could run circles around you. It would take you ten secounds to go from the key to the box. No chance. When you are ready, me and Kalen vs you and Bill. Make it take it for a benjimen.

  Anthony

The problem with you running circles around me is that I don't have to defend you while you are behind the back board. Furthermore, my shooting percentage will be very near 100% given the distance I will be shooting from. You will have to shoot from farther out, and I could care less if you shoot 90% (which you won't) as you will still be falling behind.

  Kalen and I will double team you so you are going to have to rely on McBride from the outside.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

  Garlan,

  I could run circles around you. It would take you ten secounds to go from the key to the box. No chance. When you are ready, me and Kalen vs you and Bill. Make it take it for a benjimen.

  Anthony

The problem with you running circles around me is that I don't have to defend you while you are behind the back board. Furthermore, my shooting percentage will be very near 100% given the distance I will be shooting from. You will have to shoot from farther out, and I could care less if you shoot 90% (which you won't) as you will still be falling behind.

  Kalen and I will double team you so you are going to have to rely on McBride from the outside.

  Anthony

In that case, I am going to do just like Bill.

For my birdie put on the 2nd at Soule Park, he conceded.
Here I do too.

[Melvyn Morrow]

"A cart golfer sees more of the course than a walker".

YAnthony do you think that's right? But as soon as he moves to another location by concentrating on driving he misses what a walker would see, so I do not agree with you comment. Walking allows more observation - period, a term that you Guys use, I believe.

As for calling golf when walking anything else but Golf is just sheer bloody madness. The cart or buggy came into being circa the early 1950’s I believe in the States, it did not get over to Scotland or Europe for many more years.

Ben my family have been playing a game called Golf  - we can trace it to 1771 at St Andrews so far – that is 237 years and let me assure you no record of anything else but walking has been recorded. To play golf all those years required Walking, so I feel the case is more than proved re walking. By all mean play what you want, use or don’t use carts but if you are using a cart you are not playing golf, perhaps a variation of it, I certainly accept but you have deviated from walking to riding.

If nothing else I could say there is a difference, because the rider if fresher than the walker and that may give the cart rider an advantage over the walker.  You being in the Forces should know that the advantage the fresher man has over the guy who has just walked 5-6,000yards. 
 
Melvyn

[Kalen Braley]

  Garlan,

  I could run circles around you. It would take you ten secounds to go from the key to the box. No chance. When you are ready, me and Kalen vs you and Bill. Make it take it for a benjimen.

  Anthony

The problem with you running circles around me is that I don't have to defend you while you are behind the back board. Furthermore, my shooting percentage will be very near 100% given the distance I will be shooting from. You will have to shoot from farther out, and I could care less if you shoot 90% (which you won't) as you will still be falling behind.

  Kalen and I will double team you so you are going to have to rely on McBride from the outside.

  Anthony

Anthony,

Its all good...I'll take Garland on one on one.  He may have a few extra inches in height, but I got extra heft, so I'll be shoving him out of the box. He's going to have to at least be hitting 10-15 footers.

I guess I really need to make the Chambers Bay/Bandon trip next year now!! 

[Steve Lang]

 

This will never end..

I guess "The Open" will always have to be referred to now as not the British Open, but maybe more appropriately the UK Open

[Ben Sims]

Robb & Melvyn,

Geez guys. I think we're at a spot where both parties are becoming more and more rooted in the semantics of adjectives, etc. 

I do not agree with the whole "the way the game was intended, conceived" argument.  I really can't think of a single sport or game today that isn't influenced by technology and evolution and is played in the manner in which it was originally invented.  Certainly we in the golf world aren't hitting rocks around a pasture with shepherd's staffs anymore.  Melvyn, your own collection of photographs show a drastically different and more cleanly kept version of the road hole bunker over the years. Basketball, Baseball, Football, Soccer, Tennis,  all of these sports and many others aren't the same game.  Rules of golf state nothing about walking, re: rule 1-1. 

I feel that when I am hitting a golf ball, on 18 successive holes, while in keeping with the rules of golf, I am indeed playing golf.  Regardless of mode of movement on the course.  It's not "cart golf" or "buggy golf", but golf.  Just as when I walk 18 the next day with a caddie, it's golf, not caddie golf. 

Surely you understand that there is just as much distinction between carrying your own bag over 18 as someone else carrying it for you.  Before you start talking about the traditions of the game being rooted in the ancient profession of caddying, let me remind you that it is MUCH less stressful to not carry your own bag, whether it is TRADITION or not.  Is using a caddie proven to be less stressful by The Rose Center in CO?  If they did a study, I bet it would be found so.

In the end guys--and this is my last post on the subject because I consider you friends and don't want to enflame you anymore than I have--it's not about how it was conceived or intended.  It's not about how stressed you are from walking.  It's about what the general public's perception is and where their commonality of language usage resides.  Simply put, to 99% of the golfers in the world, when they ride, they are golfing.  And they consider themselves golfers.  No need to put any other explanatory words in front of the act in which they are participating.  The are playing golf, plain and simple.   

[Mike Wagner]

OK, the answer to the original question is certainly yes.  To say someone who played their home course with only a cart could not study the architecture is laughable. 

I LOVE to walk....however, I'll have days when I play up to 72 holes.....those days I ride..

No one has mentioned the fact that most people walk with their head down....it's kind of funny, but watch sometime....it's kind of a natural thing to do at times.  The reason I mention this is that people are dismissing the cart experience as "moving too fast" like the cart is going 65 mph.  I might be able to make the argument that I see the most when I'm riding (not driving) in a cart.  Your eyes are usually stuck on something to do with the hole. 

The original post only asks if you can study GCA from a cart.....how can the answer be anything but yes?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

It’s not the UK Open or the British Open it is just plain and simple THE OPEN

In this country, we do not feel the need to confirm our ethnic origin (i.e. Irish American) or that of our game of golf.  Therefore, we know our Championship that stared in 1861 as The Open.

I trust that answers your question

Melvyn


Ben

You have had your say so let me respond – you say ‘Rules of golf state nothing about walking, re: rule 1-1. So using the money spent on your education and then some more by your armed forces, how would you as hopefully a well educated young man, play golf from say the 1740’s to the Korean War in the 1950’s ? Noting of course that this was the time of the Gentlemen Golfers.

Would you expect these Gentlemen Golfers to ride a horse or horse driven carriage over the course?

Would you expect these Gentlemen Golfers to run – noting that some course had 22-24 holes Also would you expect all following to do likewise including the Ladies?
Would you expect these Gentlemen Golfers to be carried in Sedan Chairs?
 
Would you expect these Gentlemen Golfers to act as the Gentlemen they claim to be and walk the course?
In fact how did most Golfers from the 1740’s to the 1950’s get around a golf course?

Ben you are just trying to justify carts or the usage of carts and the precedent is already set Golf has been played for centuries by walking. It’s not in the rules, I wonder why, is it not time for some basic common sense to come into play. There was no serious alternative way to navigate the course apart from walking. As for the Rules attached is a copy from 1744.   

These are the earliest surviving written Rules of Golf, compiled by the Gentlemen Golfers of Leith, later the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, drafted on 7th March 1744, for a tournament played on 2nd April.
Articles & Laws in Playing at Golf.
1.  You must Tee your Ball within a Club's length of the Hole.
2.  Your Tee must be upon the Ground.
3.  You are not to change the Ball which you Strike off the Tee.
4.   You are not to remove Stones, Bones or any Break Club, for the sake of playing your Ball, Except upon the fair Green within a Club's length of your Ball.
5.   If your Ball comes among watter, or any wattery filth, you are at liberty to take out your Ball & bringing it behind the hazard and Teeing it, you may play it with any Club and allow your Adversary a Stroke for so getting out your Ball.
6.  If your Balls be found any where touching one another, You are to lift the first Ball, till you play the last.
7.  At Holling, you are to play your Ball honestly for the Hole, and not to play upon your Adversary’s Ball, not lying in your way to the Hole.
8.  If you should lose your Ball, by it's being taken up, or any other way, you are to go back to the Spot, where you struck last, & drop another Ball, And allow your adversary a Stroke for the misfortune.
9.  No man at Holling his Ball, is to be allowed, to mark his way to the Hole with his Club, or anything else.
10.  If a Ball be stopp’d by any Person, Horse, Dog or anything else, The Ball so stop’d must be play’d where it lyes.
11.   If you draw your Club in Order to Strike, & proceed so far in the Stroke as to be bringing down your Club; If then, your Club shall break, in any way, it is to be Accounted a Stroke.
12.  He whose Ball lyes farthest from the Hole is obliged to play first.
13.  Neither Trench, Ditch or Dyke, made for the preservation of the Links, nor the Scholar's Holes, or the Soldier's Lines, Shall be accounted a Hazard; But the Ball is to be taken out and play’d with any Iron Club.
John Rattray, Capt

As for technology, I am not against it, if controlled and used to maintain the quality of the game and equipment. I do not agree if it allows the ball to travel further.

You ride a cart you are playing a different game of Golf. As I said in my earlier post, would you object into making American Football or Base Ball more mobile by introducing mechanical wheels to the sports? Would it remain the same game you knew and grew up with and would you enjoy it. Ben, only you can answer that and I have commented on carts in Golf.  Having tried a cart many years ago, I found it changed my game; I did not enjoy it and quite frankly felt short changed at the end. I actually remember very little about the course, due to being distracted by driving the cart – but then that’s my experience.  Cart Golf is very similar to golf but it’s not the same no matter how many excuses you come up with. However, for a method of getting those who cannot walk to play I have no objections.

One other thing, I have never used a Caddy, nor do I like the idea of beer on a course, that should be left for after the game. Perhaps on a cold day, a hipflask with a drop of Brandy or single malt to help fight the cold would I feel qualify as mandatory for the older golfer.

I see no reason to fall out, it is just a plain disagreement and may well stem from the fact the history and tradition is close to our hearts than yours.

I trust you will continue to enjoy your game whatever you call it on the day.

Melvyn