Can you study GCA from a cart?

[Dan Herrmann]

Simple question - can you really study GCA of a course you're playing if you're in a cart?  (This doesn't apply to those who aren't able to walk a course - a cart would be the only way you could get around).

I think not.  You can see everything when you walk, you have more time to look around, and you can "feel" the course wiith your feet. 

One course I walked and carted was Beechtree (NLE).  The walking experience taught me much more about the design than crusing in a cart.

[Joel_Stewart]

If you're playing from a cart, I would say No.  A few years ago I was paired with another panelist on a new course, he took a cart and I walked.   Carts were cart path only.  I could tell from the 1st hole he wasn't seeing what I saw.

I'll also add its difficult to study GCA if you're playing 1 ball and hitting it in the trees and rough.  How can you evaluate a hole if you on the wrong fairway or walking down the right side of the fairway as an example looking for your ball?

[Rob Rigg]

It must make it much more challenging because if you are on carts paths only you don't see the whole course and even if you are not stuck on cart paths you cannot drive over the tees in a straight line to the fairway, you always approach it from an angle. On a lot of holes, there is an "aha" moment as you exit the teeing area and approach the fairway.

On the 7th at Witch Hollow, with every step the "fore" bunkers on the right side get closer and the one on the left gets farther away until they are 75 yards apart. There is no way a course can "unveil" itself like that from a cart.

Also, the speed difference is significant.

On a great course it is hard to process all that is going on with the design when you are walking, never mind zipping across the fairways at X mph in a cart.

[Ben Sims]

Dan,

I'm sure the members at Stone Eagle would disagree with you.  I walked it...once.  If I was a member there, for every ten rounds I played, at least 8 would be on a cart.  But don't tell that membership they can't discern the architectural interest.  It's clear that that particular group of golfers made the decision to be members there based primarily on the golfing experience.  Which includes the GCA aspect.  You don't putt from a cart, and the greens merit study if only for their ability to NOT break towards Indio sometimes.  Both walkers and cart riders can see that.

[Sean Leary]

Not in one round, imo.

Obviously it is best walking, but I would say 5 rounds riding gives you more insight than 1 walking, especially if carts are on the fairways.

Paging Brad Tufts, as he just did this.

[Brad Tufts]

I agree that 5 rounds works!

I would think that walking gets you a better idea of a course, but it is not impossible to study from behind the wheel.

You just have to keep your eyes open.

Multiple plays I think are pretty important too.  So many of us only get to play great layouts once on our travels, so you have to pay as much attention as possible.  Being able to play 5 rounds at the same course back-to-back on consecutive days really appropriately opens your eyes to a course, especially the greens.

[Anthony Gray]

  Do architects only walk the land or do they have motorized vehickles con site?

  Anthony

[PCCraig]

If I had one round to study a course...the last thing I would want to do is ride around in a cart. You see far more while walking.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Dan,

I'm sure the members at Stone Eagle would disagree with you.  I walked it...once.  If I was a member there, for every ten rounds I played, at least 8 would be on a cart.  But don't tell that membership they can't discern the architectural interest.  It's clear that that particular group of golfers made the decision to be members there based primarily on the golfing experience.  Which includes the GCA aspect.  You don't putt from a cart, and the greens merit study if only for their ability to NOT break towards Indio sometimes.  Both walkers and cart riders can see that.

Yeah the thing with Stone Eagle, if you take a cart you are only on the cart path around the tees and greens,  once you hit the fairway you are driving right down the middle.  Obviously walking a course you get a full study of what you are playing, compared to driving down the middle of the fairway going 12 mph not having time to look around.  When you are on a golf course that has cart paths to one side of the hole, and you drive down the path to your ball, hit it, and then proceed back to the cart path, IMO you are not even seeing the golf course, you are looking at the nice cart paths for 4 hours.  If you must take a cart, and they don't want you driving down the fairways, at least drive down the secondary rough to look at the hole till you get 30 yards from the green.  Walking is always preferred though if you want to see the true golf course.

[Anthony Gray]

If I had one round to study a course...the last thing I would want to do is ride around in a cart. You see far more while walking.

  Pat,

  Would you even play the course if you were studying the course? I have found that the best time to study the architecture is walking the course early in the morning with out playing. Agree?

  Anthony

[Charlie Goerges]

I'm sure you can from a cart, but in the vein of what Anthony mentioned, I'd bet that playing isn't that great for study either. I do think you probably need to hit some shots to get the feel for certain things.

Wouldn't the best thing for the study of the course be to take a 5-iron out and hit some tee shots (probably from the forward tees to simulate the distance of a driver shot from the middle or back tees) some from the fairway, a few chips around the greens, even a few putts? Be the first one out and just walk. No bag, no card, comfortable shoes, maybe play some "HORSE" if you've got a fellow student with you. Hell, you could even backtrack or play cross-country a bit to get a feel for the land and the possibilities of the routing (as long as it isn't too busy).

[Joe Hancock]

Has the term "study" been clarified? Study could take place from a cart with one round of play, or by foot over decades.....

Joe

[Mike McGuire]

You can cover more ground in a cart. If i wanted to study the architecture (vs play golf) I would ride. You can zip over to an area - get out and look around. Not possible walking.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, but not nearly as well as on foot.

You use many more of your senses walking.

Riding, you generally lose the sense of touch, of hearing, of smell.

[Peter Pallotta]

Has the term "study" been clarified? Study could take place from a cart with one round of play, or by foot over decades.....

Joe

I love this, Joe. Great point - one that extends to so many areas of 'study'. But a potential killer not only of this thread but of ALL threads, and even of all DISCUSSION boards. Not that I'm saying that's a BAD thing, just saying. And not to mention WHO is doing the studying, either in a round or over decades...and WHY.

Anyway, that's one heck of a cool post. It reminds me: Tom D today answered a question I had about the Cypress Point routing with such detail (and based on such extensive knowledge and experience) that it just stopped me in my tracks. This actually happens quite often.

I'm thinking I should really just bite the bullet and de-register from this site, which would force me just to READ and stop me from posting.

But I guess I'm not yet that principled a guy.....

Peter

[Charlie Goerges]

But I guess I'm not yet that principled a guy.....

Peter

Don't de-register Peter. Being principled isn't as wonderful as it sounds. I mean the Ayatollah Khomeini was a very principled guy, as were many much less savory individuals throughout history. But some very unprincipled guys have been decent upstanding human beings!

[Scott Henderson]

I have to go with Anthony - it is hard to "study" a course when you are playing it.  When I play a course I am usually so focused on what each particular shot requires that I don't see much of the GCA.  IMO when playing a course I do get a better feel for it if I am walking, not just the GCA.  It is true that using a cart allows one to visit a lot more territory, but do you actually understand where you have been?  It is like putting - you get a lot of input about the ground from your feet just walking around.

[Damon Groves]

No question golf is a different experience walking. You experience the course differently, get a better feel for the subtleties and from a playing perspective play better.

Isn't it a requirement that to be on this website you walk the course? 

[Rob Rigg]

Can you really study a course without ever playing it?

Without the context of hitting your ball, watching it roll across the turf off the tee, without thinking about how you will attack a green with your shot and then trying to execute, can you fully comprehend the merits of a design?

I think it takes a combination of playing and walking to really get a feel for a course - and walking without playing is certainly helpful, more helpful is some aspects of understanding a routing, but I do not think it can get you all the way there.

[Pat Burke]

If I had one round to study a course...the last thing I would want to do is ride around in a cart. You see far more while walking.

  Pat,

  Would you even play the course if you were studying the course? I have found that the best time to study the architecture is walking the course early in the morning with out playing. Agree?

  Anthony

Late in my playing days, I was not able to play too many days in a row due to my injury.  Started doing many of my practice rounds with a putter and 3 golf balls (especially new courses).  Learned more about the course simply by not looking at it from where my shots ended up, but by searching for the desired lines.  Try to get my students to look at courses this way, but don't get listened to very often!

[Tom_Doak]

I sometimes use a vehicle when we are out building a course, but I also put in a whole lot of miles on foot, as anybody who's ever been out to see us in action will testify.

I am pretty sure Bill Coore puts in even more miles on foot than I do.

[Michael Dugger]

After giving this topic some thought, I think it depends upon what aspects of the architecture you are studying.

I believe you can develop a general feel of a course from a cart.  As Steve Wynn pointed out at Shadow Creek, a golf course provides 18 opportunities to predetermine where the viewer is located.  Even when playing from a cart, a golfer stands and hits from the same tees as a walking player.

And it's the same with greens.  Every player, cart or walking, finishes a golf hole by putting their ball into the cup. 

In many instances carts are allowed wherever, except 50 yds short of the green, so exactly what are these cart golfers missing out on that walkers aren't?

I think it's become trendy to bad mouth those who take carts, because we here at gca.com are "purists" 

[Leo Barber]

I think you can get a general appreciation of a course from a cart but studying it requires some deeper contemplation other than that which is found in a three hour round of golf, half of which is from a moving vehicle.

Multiple walking rounds definitely, perched up on a dune observing - absolutely, sitting up on a slow moving maintenance machine such as a fairway mower for hours on end - perfect.  I think the true intellect of the really great courses is a slowly revealing process.   

[Melvyn Morrow]

In our modern world, our machines map and lay out plans from what they observe. The Laser mapping shows 3D and contours, giving an unbelievable detailed plan. The Human eye has a similar ability to absorb the same images but it needs a slow to steady speed to fully understand and register that information.  By walking down the Fairways, we allow the eye the time to pick up and observe all round images. We can note the slow inclines, the slight falls or rises, the quality of all the surfaces of the course including the hazards.
Imaging you are approaching a small rise, with every step your brain is taken in multi images and understanding the uneven surface allowing you to slowly start to notice what is over that rise. The more steps, the more that image grows in your mind. As the picture unfolds frame by frame or should I say step by step, you naturally observe the full (hopefully) quality of the architect/designers work with again (hopefully) the natural landscape. This I am afraid is just not possible is rushing at 8-12 MPH plus either in a cart or 4 wheel drive vehicle. 

I drive down the sea road on a daily basis but because I am driving I do not observe as much as my passenger. But then again they do not notice the intricacies of the local landscape that Walkers observe. As for golf, I firmly believe that the golfers survey of the GCA must be taken from being on the course at all times, otherwise just how valid is the observations.

Melvyn 

PS Michael - Why are we who play the game in the traditional way always regarded as 'Purists', why can't we just be called ‘Golfers’? Think up another more appropriate name for those cart riding eerrrr...golfers.

PPS Leo,  I would hope my work if I were a course designer would be appreciated fairly quickly otherwise I would feel that I would have failed in my endeavours

[Steve Lang]

   I can study it probably 90% or better by cart.. preferring to mainly circumnavigate the greens on foot.

Flip the govenor off, wedge a gatoraide bottle on the throttle linkage and let me cover the subject grounds frontwards and backwards unencumbered for two hours and I doubt the vast majority of the "design" features would not be discovered adequately to be journalized.

With that said, I've spent 15-30 plus minutes doing drawings / markups of individual green slopes in yardage books before.. portraits if you will, as time and need allowed.

It's simply the views garnered whilst playing that are seen now and perhaps believed later that make the foot journey what it is.  The views are the input the golfer must deal with and his capability to control his ball's travel and travails..

Play with the gca and enjoy, but after how many times of play don't you start to get it.. like playing card games