Best green complex ever?

« **on:** June 02, 2009, 02:05:06 PM »

Old Macdonald is a wonderfully spectacular golf course. However, the seventh green complex stood out to me as one of the great pieces of golf course design I have ever seen.

The hole is very nonchalant and meanders its way toward to the green, rested at the top of a hill some 420 yards away. The fairway has some wonderful tumbles, great tpography, yet the hole climaxes at the green. Once you walk onto the green, you look out at the Pacific Ocean, hitting you right in the face. Going long results in a bunker shot few feet from doom - a drop off to the beach and ocean below. Yet, from the fairway, the only part of the green complex that can be seen is the flagsick and front of the green. Alas, when you get to the green, and the ocean is there, and you realize the problems of going long, it's truly wonderful.

The blind second shot. The temptations of a back pin. The recovery options available. The wonderful view.

Is there a better green complex anywhere?

« **Reply #1 on:** June 02, 2009, 02:07:35 PM »

Was your camera broken?

« **Reply #2 on:** June 02, 2009, 02:14:18 PM »

Bill,

You and I, apparently, are the only two out of 1500 to yet see the Famous 10........

Joe

« **Reply #3 on:** June 02, 2009, 02:19:15 PM »

Joe:

I've seen it, of course. I even saw it before we started, which is why it just amazes me that Jordan likes that green complex so much ... because most of it was built just fighting the internal slopes after cutting twenty feet of dune off the top of it.

In fact, in shaping the green we raised and lowered the surface 1-2 feet at a time in our attempts to get it to tie in.

« **Reply #4 on:** June 02, 2009, 02:22:07 PM »

There is no doubt that the green complex at number 7 at OldMac is great, but I don't think you can say that one green complex is the greatest in the world. Could you prefer a punchbowl green to a skyline green? It's the variety of green complexes that may make a WHOLE COURSE have 'the greatest green complexes in the world'.

« **Reply #5 on:** June 02, 2009, 02:25:28 PM »

I'd vote Pac. #6, #7 & #16 as "greatest" before Old Mac 7

« **Reply #6 on:** June 02, 2009, 02:28:52 PM »

Quote from: Joe Hancock on June 02, 2009, 02:14:18 PM

Bill,

You and I, apparently, are the only two out of 1500 to yet see the Famous 10........

Joe

No, make that three of us. Maybe next year for me..

« **Reply #7 on:** June 02, 2009, 02:38:19 PM »

The 4th at Augusta stands up pretty well.

« **Reply #8 on:** June 02, 2009, 03:15:57 PM »

Quote from: Steve Kupfer on June 02, 2009, 02:38:19 PM

The 4th at Augusta stands up pretty well.

But just think what Doak could have done!

Bogey

« **Reply #9 on:** June 02, 2009, 03:42:02 PM »

The green complex at the seventh is what makes the hole great.

The tee shot is nothing too extraordinary. Some good fairway contours, a pretty wide fairway. But everything gets intense at the green. It calls for a precision approach. Too short goes down the hill a ways, and too long goes into some bunkers that seem to be almost carved into the ocean. The contours are fun. Get on the wrong side of the hole and good luck putting.

Surely there are many great green complexes. Some that come immediately to mind, not surprisingly, are 16 at Cypress, 13 at Cypress, 8 at Pebble, 10 at Riviera...
BUT, none of those holes are made great simply because of the green complex.
There are all other aspects of the holes that add to their overall greatness.

The 7th at Old Mac is made great by the green.

The semi blind second shot to the green is one full of fun and challenge.

The green requires precision, from the approach to actually putting.

Recovery options abound, are diverse, and are also full of challenge and precision.

What prevents this green complex from being the greatest?

« **Reply #10 on:** June 02, 2009, 03:45:08 PM »

Quote from: Jordan Wall on June 02, 2009, 03:42:02 PM

The green complex at the seventh is what makes the hole great.

The tee shot is nothing too extraordinary. Some good fairway contours, a pretty wide fairway. But everything gets intense at the green. It calls for a precision approach. Too short goes down the hill a ways, and too long goes into some bunkers that seem to be almost carved into the ocean. The contours are fun. Get on the wrong side of the hole and good luck putting.

Surely there are many great green complexes. Some that come immediately to mind, not surprisingly, are 16 at Cypress, 13 at Cypress, 8 at Pebble, 10 at Riviera...
BUT, none of those holes are made great simply because of the green complex.
There are all other aspects of the holes that add to their overall greatness.

The 7th at Old Mac is made great by the green.

The semi blind second shot to the green is one full of fun and challenge.

The green requires precision, from the approach to actually putting.

Recovery options abound, are diverse, and are also full of challenge and precision.

What prevents this green complex from being the greatest?

Jordan, I assume this is a skyline green, right?

Doak built a couple of really good looking skyline greens at Stone Eagle, it was one of my favorite features there.

I love skyline greens.

« **Reply #11 on:** June 02, 2009, 03:47:10 PM »

You consider 16 Cypress to be a great green complex? That's a head scratcher to me. It's a pretty flat inverted saucer.. not much to it. I take it the ocean surrounding is what you mean?

Re EIEIO, I shall just have to take your word for it. Of course nothing necessarily prevents this from being the single greatest green complex in the entire world. I just hope you do understand what a tall statement that is. And it also might help if you could provide us peons with a picture.

« **Reply #12 on:** June 02, 2009, 03:51:20 PM »

Theres a video of it right here....it was in a prior thread a few days back.

http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/05/old-mac-7/

As for me, while skyline greens are neat once in awhile, my preference leans more towards a green complex where I can see most of whats there at least. #7 at PD is pretty damn cool if I had to pick one or CPC #9

« **Reply #13 on:** June 02, 2009, 03:55:41 PM »

Muchas gracias, Kalen.

And wow that is a very cool green complex for sure. Best in the world? Who knows. But young Jordan is not insane to ask the question, anyway.

« **Reply #14 on:** June 02, 2009, 04:03:28 PM »

I am biased because I just finished 2 rounds on the course this past weekend.... but the 8th green at the Donald Ross course - French Lick is a pretty unique green. I'm sorry that I don't have any pictures that would do this hole justice.

« **Reply #15 on:** June 02, 2009, 07:16:25 PM »

Make that four that have seen the 10 at Mac boys.

They really were all great in their own ways. The one that stands out to me as all-world could be the #5 Short/#10 Bottle complex. It's as complex an area as I ever seen out of the Renaissance men. Lots of movement, one huge blowout on the right of the #5 portion of the green, a huge swale and drop off on the front of the #10 Bottle side. It really is a special acre of land that the entire system of two greens sits on.

« **Reply #16 on:** June 02, 2009, 07:36:41 PM »

1st at NGLA
2nd at Pine Valley
7th at Friars Head
5th at Bandon Trails
9th at Cypress Point

Hard to choose.

« **Reply #17 on:** June 02, 2009, 07:46:45 PM »

Quote from: Ben Sims on June 02, 2009, 07:16:25 PM

Make that four that have seen the 10 at Mac boys.

They really were all great in their own ways. The one that stands out to me as all-world could be the #5 Short/#10 Bottle complex. It's as complex an area as I ever seen out of the Renaissance men. Lots of movement, one huge blowout on the right of the #5 portion of the green, a huge swale and drop off on the front of the #10 Bottle side. It really is a special acre of land that the entire system of two greens sits on.

Ben, is that a double green? If so I hadn't heard about that until now.

If a double is it front to back or side by side (like the Old Course)?

Thanks.

« **Reply #18 on:** June 02, 2009, 07:49:36 PM »

Bill,

Only one round there. I think it's connected by a little isthmus about 10 yards wide at the back right of the #5 green and back center of the #10 green. Mr. Bahto or Mr. Doak, help me out!!!

« **Reply #19 on:** June 02, 2009, 08:20:28 PM »

Any green complex that will allow for par by hitting a bladed wedge and a 150 yard putter to be hit on and two putts easily isn't, in my mind, the best.

16th at Pasa kills it.

Jed

« **Reply #20 on:** June 02, 2009, 08:23:09 PM »

Quote from: Jed Peters on June 02, 2009, 08:20:28 PM

Any green complex that will allow for par by hitting a bladed wedge and a 150 yard putter to be hit on and two putts easily isn't, in my mind, the best.

16th at Pasa kills it.

Jed

Jed,

Great call, 16 at Pasa wins this category for me. The most amazing green complex I think I've ever seen and pics don't do it anywhere close to justice.

« **Reply #21 on:** June 02, 2009, 08:23:29 PM »

Old Tom here...........Sure, the 7th green complex IS pretty special, but, there are somewhere south of half a million greens on the planet, so it MIGHT BE A BIT OF A STRETCH to be able to pick the best, don't we agree? All this is mostly 'eye of the beholder or player', stuff, IMO, for as we all might consider ourselves to be 'experts', well, at the end of the glass it is pretty subjective.

And even on the ten holes open at OLD MAC, the tenth green complex is pretty darn sweet, as is the road hole, #11(it 'works' fantastically well, IMO). I don't know that the 7th (though it is certainly dramatic, an exciting play, and a great vista) is 'better than' those two, in terms of the golf shot required into, and the play around and on the putting surfaces.

As to whether the 5th/10th constitutes a double green, well.......they are mowed as one, though the isthmus that connects them is narrow, and the character of the two complexes are not similar, as we might think of most double greens to be. The designers, shapers, and supt. would have to share some inside info on that one.

That's my two cents!

Best,
Tom

« **Reply #22 on:** June 02, 2009, 09:53:10 PM »

Here are some pics I took of it, and I must admit once you get to the top of the hill and see the Pacific Ocean it really takes your breath away.
Here is the view once you see the ocean

Here is the view from 8 tee looking down on the green

And here is a gentlemen chipping back up onto the green, and can't seem to remember who he was HAHA (i'm sure he knew what he was doing)

« **Reply #23 on:** June 02, 2009, 10:11:28 PM »

OK....If we are going to talk Doak greens why is Pac Dunes No 2 never mentioned? i think it could be the best on the course.

Anthony

« **Reply #24 on:** June 02, 2009, 10:16:58 PM »

Ben / Bill - I dont remember the two actually being connected, I think it was more the way they were mowing the tees that made it look like that. I remember someone in our group asking Tom that question, and if my memory serves correct, it wasn't intended to be a double green, although I guess it COULD be possible!

Personally, I found the natural site for the birritiz #8 more to my liking... I liked 7 more for the approach. Short #5 was also one that still sticks out in my mind, I only wish we could have seen the double plateau #2 grassed in, not that dirt (sand) golf isn't fun!

Outside of Oregon my "best ever" are #7 at Friars Head and #11 at TOC

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