[Andrew Mitchell]

In anticipation of a visit to Silloth on Solway next week I was perusing their website when I came across their latest newsletter http://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/newsletters/05-2009_all.pdf

Pages 7 & 8 outline in great detail a proposal to reconstruct the course put forward by MacKenzie in 1921.  The plan ultimately came to nothing (save for a few bunkers) after being rejected by the membership.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

How gratifying it is that they kept this - so many clubs have thrown away so much wonderful material.

[Scott Warren]

Strange, the way the world works sometimes.

I had never heard of Silloth until this morning, when it was recommended to me by Chris Kane, and since then I have seen mentions of it here, on the website of a society I play with occasionally and in an email from a friend.

Hope you'll report back with some pics, Andrew!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Scott, Silloth is a must visit for anyone with an appreciation of links golf. It is also exceptionally good value.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Strange, the way the world works sometimes.

I had never heard of Silloth until this morning, when it was recommended to me by Chris Kane, and since then I have seen mentions of it here, on the website of a society I play with occasionally and in an email from a friend.

Hope you'll report back with some pics, Andrew!

Silloth is extremely good and would be much better known if it wasn't in the back of beyond on the northern Cumbrian coast. 

I last played there in 2005 with Chris Kane whilst he was making his way up to Scotland.

I'll try and remember the camera!

[Mark Pearce]

Strange, the way the world works sometimes.

I had never heard of Silloth until this morning, when it was recommended to me by Chris Kane, and since then I have seen mentions of it here, on the website of a society I play with occasionally and in an email from a friend.

Hope you'll report back with some pics, Andrew!

It's as good a links as there is in England outside the Open rota (and as good as some on the rota) and under £40 a round. I think there is at least one well travelled GCAer who considers it the best course in England, full stop.

[Niall C]

Anytime I try to write a post about Silloth, the site seems to crash so apologies to everyone in advance.

Andrew

What a fantastic post. I am embarrassed to say that although I was a member for 5/6 years I never managed to track down a copy of MacKenzies plans. John Pearson and Peter Cusack wrote a history of the club including an evolution of the course which mentioned MacKenzies ideas for the 3rd green/4th tee but didn't go into detail or show the plan. It did mention that the plan was in the newspaper archives and I have been thinking of trecking down to Carlisle to get them but this has saved a trip.

As an aside there is also a plan on the wall of the dining room in the club house for one of the earlier routings but unfortunately its faded and hard to follow.

In the club history, Pearson/Cusack tell a story about the new 3rd green. Apparently the club hired an independant contractor (ie not MacKenzie) to build the new green. Anyone who has played there will know that the green has a consistent gradient down the way from back right corner to front left which is frightening prospect in summer if you get above the hole. When the committee were presented with their new green they expressed dismay at the slope to which the contractor responded by saying that he had been asked to lay the green flat but no-one had asked him to lay it level ! It just shows, if you don't get the brief right......

Anyway, what interests me about MacKenzies plans is the fairway bunkering he proposed. Silloth has relatively little by way of fairway bunkering, relative that is to places like Carnoustie or Troon. The good Doctor seems to be trying to dictate strategy this way. With all due respect to MacKenzie I think the green complexes and undulating fairways dictate strategy far better than his proposed bunkering scheme and neither are they needed to make the course any tougher.

According to the card, the four hardest holes are the par 4 7th (c. 400 yards), the par 5 13th (c. 460 yards), the par 4 3rd (c. 370 yards) and the par 4 4th (c. 400 yards) and yet they have only one bunker between them. For all those that have played there, I challenge you to tell me where that bunker is without looking it up.

Andrew - when are you playing Silloth ?

Niall

[Mark Pearce]

According to the card, the four hardest holes are the par 4 7th (c. 400 yards), the par 5 13th (c. 460 yards), the par 4 3rd (c. 370 yards) and the par 4 4th (c. 400 yards) and yet they have only one bunker between them. For all those that have played there, I challenge you to tell me where that bunker is without looking it up.

That's tough.  It's not on 13, I'm pretty sure that's bunkerless.  Is there a bunker on the in side of the dogleg on 3?  There certainly isn't a greenside bunker on 4 and I can't recall a fairway bunker.  Perhaps there's one on the left of 7?  Those are four excellent holes but I can't remember a bunker with any certainty.

If anyone is ever thinking of a mini-GCA visit to Silloth I'd be keen to join in.

[Ross Tuddenham]

When I first read the initial post I was intrigued to find out if people thought these plans could be used and put into effect to improve the course.  But reading Niall Carlton’s comments I think it may not be the case that MacKenzies could improve the course, odd as you would always imagine it would be great to reserect an old great to touch up some courses?

Also why is he talking of eliminating long carries as I understood he was a fan of at least one option from the tee that involved a long carry?

Although having just mentioned that I see that he proposes a line from the fifth tee that would require a long carry to set up a better angle to the green.  From the pictures on this site it is difficult to see the need for a bunker here as you seem to be playing over dunes anyway.

Overall in reading the proposals it is clear that he was gunning for major changes and proposes moving many of the tees and greens, in most cases totally changing the feel and play of the hole.

I have not played the course but have always wanted to play it and would definitely be up for any chance to play the course.

[Niall C]

Mark,

Nearly right. The bunker is on the 3rd at the front right side of green. I guess it is there to pick up any over hit running shots which have been hit up the right side allowing for the slope to bring in the ball.

Ross,

Absolutely right about the 5th tee. All the tees are now located on the same dune line that MacKenzie proposed. I don't know if the club shifted the tees to their present position following MacKenzies advice or whether they did it later of their own accord but it certainly makes it a more interesting hole IMHO.

I'm also up for a Silloth trip, anyone else interested ?

Niall 

[Ross Tuddenham]

In the opinion of people who know the course where could some of Mackenzie’s ideas be employed to improve the course?

I notice that earlier in the news letter they mention a new fifth green will be coming into play.  Does anyone know if that is in line with Mackenzie’s idea to move it towards the sea?

If so with the tee in the dunes and the new green is this the newest Mackenzie hole in the world now?

[Ed Tilley]

Strange, the way the world works sometimes.

I had never heard of Silloth until this morning, when it was recommended to me by Chris Kane, and since then I have seen mentions of it here, on the website of a society I play with occasionally and in an email from a friend.

Hope you'll report back with some pics, Andrew!

Pics from a 2006 visit are on the attached thread.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24349.msg449671/

[Niall C]

Ross,

In a manner of speaking the 5th possibly is the newest MacKenzie hole, Tom MacKenzie that is. The green was designed by Tom MacKenzie. As I stated in another thread I believe Tom initially advised leaving the green alone but the committee wanted to move it for two reasons, firstly for agronomy reasons and secondly they wanted to move it back to add length onto the hole which is what they did. Dr MacKenzies plans were to enlarge the existing green rather than relocate it. Page 4 of the newsletter shows the new green.

As to whether Dr Mac's plans would have improved the course I think that is open to conjecture one way or another. As I said previously I don't think his bunkering scheme would have added anything but some of his routing ideas would have been quite interesting. I particularly like the idea of playing the wrong way back up the current 8th fairway to the 14th green which is what I sometimes do anyway if I've hooked my tee shot at 14.

Niall

[Ross Tuddenham]

Yeah I noticed it had been moved, just wondered if it may have been constructed in keeping with the proposals for the changes to the old one. 

It is difficult to make out the plan at the top of the page, knowing the course does it make much sense to you?  Are the dotted lines his proposals?

[Andrew Mitchell]

Ross

My impression from reading the report and the plan was that MacKenzie's proposals were the continous lines on the plan and the dotted lines represented the course as it existed at that time.

Niall

I'm at Silloth on Friday week (12th June).  There are 21 of us from West Yorkshire travelling by coach.

I'd be interested in a GCA meet up there at some stage.

[Niall C]

Ross

Sorry just picked up on your post. Andrew is indeed right, the dotted lines are the existing holes.

Andrew

I was thinking of joining you but can't make the 12th. Happy to try and organise a GCA get together there. Anyone interested, can they email me and I'll try and come up with a date and arrangements.

Niall

[Andy Levett]

In anticipation of a visit to Silloth on Solway next week I was perusing their website when I came across their latest newsletter http://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/newsletters/05-2009_all.pdf

Pages 7 & 8 outline in great detail a proposal to reconstruct the course put forward by MacKenzie in 1921.  The plan ultimately came to nothing (save for a few bunkers) after being rejected by the membership.

Fascinating. If any course belongs in the 'if it ain't broke,don't fix it' category it's the current links at Silloth but it's still interesting to speculate on what might have been.
I've been there a few times but can't visualise the land where the new sixth green would be. But the current hole, though a solid par 3, is no Eden, so maybe MacK's would be an improvement.
The re-aligned seventh may be a good idea as two blind punchbowl greens in the first seven holes is arguably too much of a good thing.
The current eighth is solid rather than inspired so MacK's new hole close to the Solway could definitely be an improvement.
MacK's tenth, using (approximately) the current eighth fairway and 14th green is one again I can't really visualise sitting at a computer but would like to see on the ground. The current tenth (which would be lost) is a good risk-reward short par 4 from the same tee complex as the 9th but the 1921 hole appears to be another short hole not much longer than the 9th.
MacK's 11th is the effectively the current 13th and his comments about green visibility suggest a gap may have been cut in the ridge at some stage, as it's easy to see but hard to attain now.
12? No idea - don't think I've ever looked from 14th tee towards tenth green.
13th on MacK's plan, current 11th, is ironic as his idea would avoid the ugly evergreens and artificial OB now being used to protect/screen the caravan park outside the course boundary. Ironic, as MacK courses around the world are suffering from compromises caused by litigious crowding.
MacK's 14th - essentially the current 12th but 231 yards rather than the current 200ish - must have been the sort of par 3.5 hole most top courses, including Silloth, no longer possess. His plan features fairway carry and hook bunkers and the modern equivalant hole would be 280-300yards long, which a lot of people, erroneously I think, believe is too short for a par 4 but too long for a par 3.
15 Could be a better hole as a dogleg, as MacK suggests, played from a tee near the current 12th green.
16 Don't know - can't visualise the old green site.
17 Current green position seems fine to me though whether the depression to front right that gives much of the interest was created post-1921 is another matter.
18 (Tom) Mackenzie's new tee is a big improvement for keeping the houses out of play. His namesake had the same idea but nearly 90 years earlier!

Niall,
I'd definitely be up for a GCA field trip and will email.

Cheers
Andy

[Niall C]

Andy

Excellent and detailed comments considering you've only been there a few times ! Let me also chip in with a few further comments for what they are worth.

Currently the only hole that plays between the the first and second dune lines is the 5th. MacK's proposed new 6th would also have been between these dune lines, or more accurately from one dune line to the other. The new 5th green is effectively where Mac proposed to build the tee for the new 6th.

Andy, the current 14th is the second of the back to back par 5's and is very much reachable in two although the second shot is blind as you are hitting over a dune which is about a hundred yards short of the green. If I read the plans correctly I think Mac was proposing to use this dune as the tee site for his 11th and playing back down the current 14th fairway and playing upto the 13th green thereby not using the current 13th fairway at all. I'm not sure how good a hole that would make but it would be going some to replace the existing hole (13th).

Mac's proposed 12th - if I'm right where he was going to put the tee and the green it would have produced an uphill par 3. Doesn't get my juices flowing and I doubt that there's any chance now of building it as it plays over the site of a Roman hill fort.

Mac's 13th - Andy, up until 10 years or so ago, the land area for the drives was onto a hogsback type fairway. What they did was rebuild this fairway to push the mound to the right and encourage golfers top play up the left which has had limited success. I have to say that Mac's plan would probably have been more successful and cheaper.

Mac's 14th - lengthening and bunkering the existing 12th hole. Firstly, I think the first bunker ie the cross bunker was actually built but has now been overgrown with heather and grass. Not sure about the second. What would the hole look like with Dr Mac's proposed new tee ? I'm not sure the green would be all that receptive for this length of par 3. Remember there is a bank which kicks all short tee shots off to the right. Hard enough to reach the green in some winds at 200 yards never mind 230 !

16th - I'm surprised the good Doctor isn't proposing something more radical like relocating the green which would have been blind.

17th -now that the 18th tee has been moved I would be very surprised if the 17th green doesn't move close to Mac's proposed line of play but not as far back.

Andy - reading your comments and re-examining MacKenzies plans makes me think that more of the Doctors proposals were (ultimately) implemented than perhaps John Pearson is giving credit for but I suspect that as they were probably implemented on an ad hoc basis without reverting to using MacKenzies brother its hard to say for sure.

Niall

Andy Mitchell/Ross,

If you are interested in a Sillothh GCA trip can you send me an email. Likewise anyone else.

Thanks

Niall 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()