[Warwick Loton]

I recently had a chat with a senior and experienced member of the greens staff at my club, and was surprised by his explanation of how hole lengths are measured. He said it is standard practice around the world to use the following method:

- For men, the distance of a hole is measured from its' tee to the centre of its' green, following the ideal playing line.
That line might cut some corners (ie flying over rough, and perhaps cutting the corner of a dogleg) and so the official distance of a hole can be much shorter than the distance a ball would cover if it followed the fairway.

- For ladies, the distance from tee to centre of green is measured along the centre of the fairway.

Is this explanation correct and adequate?

If so, what standard of golfer is assumed in establishing the ideal line that a man would play? What distance does this prototypical player hit his shots, and what are his carry distances; is he assumed to hit with draw or fade whenever desired; and how aggressively does he play?

[Bob Harris]

His explanation does not follow the USGA procedure:


From the USGA Handicap Manual:

12-2. Measuring

a. How To Measure

Each hole must be measured horizontally (air line) by an electronic measuring device (EMD), surveying instruments, or a global positioning system (GPS) from the permanent yardage marker for every teeing area on the golf course to the center of the green. Any trained individual may perform course measurement, subject to review by the authorized golf association that issues the USGA Course Rating to the golf club. Yardages on the scorecard should accurately reflect this measurement. Accurate hole measurements to the nearest yard are very important.

A hole with a dogleg must be measured on a straight line from the tee to the center of the fairway at the bend. If the pivot point is not easily discernible, select a pivot point that is approximately 250 (men) or 210 (women) yards from the set of tees played by the majority of golfers. The measurement must continue from that point on a straight line to the center of the green or to the next pivot point if applicable.

[Dunlop_White]

I did read somewhere recently that modern technology was shrinking scorecard yardages, because the "turning points" used today (260 yards) are further than they used to be (at 240). If that is the case, your green chair could be right?

[Bradley Anderson]

I have always measured from the green back to the tee.

I hire a surveyor to find the exact center of the green, and then shoot distance to find wherever 150 yards lies in the center of the fairway, from the green center. This involves laying a tape from each side of the fairway edge and finding the middle of the fairway. You can't do this too easily without a prism. From there we set up a stake and measure back to the center of the various tee quadrants. For instance, if three blocks are on a single tee, you divide that tee in to three equal sections, and measure from the center of each of those sections to the 150 stake. That is how I have found the angle from each tee block.

I have rarely encountered a situation where the 150 stake is not in an obvious turning point, except on double dogleg par fives that are tree lined. In the two instances that I have encountered that, I had the golf pro pick another turning point, and we set up the second turning point for measuring back to the tee. That's where it gets tricky - on the par fives that are tree lined.

On the par threes you can measure from tee to green.

Funny story: on the double dogleg par five that we had just measured, John Daly filmed a Titelist commercial with Michael Jordon. He dropped balls on the fairway a long ways behind our second turning point and proceed to drive them over the trees on to the green. The golf pro and I looked at each other and just laughed. This was back in 1995 when he was in his prime. Those balls had so much elevation to them, it was unbelievable.

Turning points are kind of irrelevant with those kinds of hitters. 

[Bradley Anderson]

Most golf districts have a couple of guys who will do this for you for free, and it is best to leave it up to those guys. But you need to stay with them.

[Bradley Anderson]

One other thing I thought of.

The old surveyors used the stadia lines in their lenses to determine distance, as the crow flies. And they were pretty accurate, within a few yards or so, using that method. So even before prisms, the yardages on older golf courses were probably very accurate if a surveyor was hired.

[Bradley Anderson]

I thought of another interesting yardage story. 

There was an old caddy who used to hang out in the caddy yard where I worked in Chicago many years ago. He told me this story about how he caddied for Jack Nicholas at a tournament - I think the club was Edgebrook, but I can't remember.

Anyways, this old guy had grown up this golf course, and he was a player. He had paced off the yardages from every tree and bunker on the course, and he had it all penciled in a notebook. Well, he and Jack were standing over a shot, and Jack is having a hard time deciding which club to use, and this guy pulls out his notebook and tells Jack how many yards out he is. Jack grabs the notebook and begins flipping though all the pages in amazement. According to this guy, Jack took his notebook away from him and kept it. And he won the tournament!

So that old caddy may have started what eventually became a PGA tradition? Well, he thought so anyways, and that was his brush with fame.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The correct way in the UK is: find the turn point (central to the fairway) measure to the furthest back tee point of each tee you wish to measure. measure from the turn point to the first point on the green and also to the back point on the green (find the middle distance by adding both and dividing by 2) add both distances together and subtract 4 yards from the total to get the yardage of the hole. Obviously par 3 holes have no turn point and some 5 holes may have two turns.
If you add yards to a front of a green by mowing the hole is 1 yard shorter, equally if you alter a mowing pattern the other way holes can be extended, hard to do much though.

[Scott Warren]

add both distances together and subtract 4 yards from the total to get the yardage of the hole. Obviously par 3 holes have no turn point and some 5 holes may have two turns.

Maybe it's just me being really slow, but why do you subtract 4yds from the sum of the first measurement (tee to turn point) and second measurement (turn point to centre of green)?

[Adrian_Stiff]

add both distances together and subtract 4 yards from the total to get the yardage of the hole. Obviously par 3 holes have no turn point and some 5 holes may have two turns.

Maybe it's just me being really slow, but why do you subtract 4yds from the sum of the first measurement (tee to turn point) and second measurement (turn point to centre of green)?

Scott- You only subtract the 4 yards once.

[Scott Warren]

Sorry worded my question badly. I realise it's only subtracted once. My question is why it is subtracted at all?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Scott- It used to be 2 yards and in c1995 they changed it to 4 yards, the reason or rationale behind it was that the rules of golf define a teeing ground as between two points which you cant go infront off but remember you can go 2 club lengths behind, so I suppose the actual tee could never be exactly on the back point, I think it went to 4 (every UK golf course lost 36 yards off their total) because the club length is more than a yard and with the stance it adds up to in excess of 3.

[Scott Warren]

Sweet, thanks.

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