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TEPaul

Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« on: May 16, 2002, 04:05:27 PM »
I'm not going to do it but others might like to. There was some discussion of the Cascades and various holes on the course and how good they all were. I don't know the Cascades but being from Philadephia I do know a certain amount about Flynn's courses here.

In my opinion, William Flynn's career inventory (maybe about 40 courses) is without question the strongest career inventory of any architect ever! Frankly, I don't think anyone is even remotely close to him in the overall strength of career inventory.

Some might cite Harry Colt, or maybe MacKenzie but I don't really know about that! Others might argue that if his career inventory was larger it might have gone down in quality but I would counter that by saying there is much to be said for concentrating on quality over quantity!

I'd love to see how some of you would rank Flynn's course's against each other. I'll only start with his #1 because it's a real no-brainer, and I predict in the next five years it will "all in all" (in a really proper overall architectural analysis) be ranked #1 in the world, or should be!

1. Shinnecock
2. ..............
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2002, 04:26:03 PM »
Tom Paul

I've only played one Flynn course, Lehigh and it's excellent.  I've played a lot of Colt courses and will try and rank them (with some guesses) if you like.  I'm pretty sure Mackenzie would win with only a small choice of courses.

PS

Shinnecock might be the world's best course.  But it ain't a links ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2002, 04:47:05 PM »
Paul;

Lehigh is an excellent golf course and just shows the real strength of Flynn's overeall inventory. It would be interesting to see where some of those who know a good number of Flynn's courses would put Lehigh in the list.

Lehigh is a great example of a Flynn outside/inside routing and there's some wonderful variety and some real sophisticated architectural concept on that golf course as well a few examples of real drama. It's one of the best examples I know of how Flynn on topographical land would just roll up and over and down and around the countryside creating some great variety and mood swings! I feel Flynn was the most imaginative and probably the best router ever.

But he has so many other great courses too. Just like I predict that Shinnecock may step to the top of the list in the next five years I also predict that Flynn's reputation will step up that final notch to the top echelon of the world's best!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2002, 05:00:24 PM »
Tom

Lehigh has a wonderful routing.

But maybe Flynn copied Harry Colt's outside/inside route at Muirfield ;)

(For me, it would be nice to see a links at Number 1 in GOLF.  After all, these rankers are supposed to "get it"!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2002, 05:17:26 PM »
Paul:

Would you tell me what a course absolutely must have to be a "links"? Is it possible to have a links course in America and if so can what are they--if not can you give me some of the closest examples?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2002, 05:34:07 PM »
Here's my list of Flynn:

1. Shinnecock
2. Cascades

3. ??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Craig Rokke

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2002, 06:32:40 PM »
If TEPaul's estimate of 40 courses in Flynn's inventory is correct, then he had a pretty good batting average. Almost
a quarter of them are listed in Golfweek's Classical list. In
order:

1  Shinnecock
2. Cascades
3. Cherry Hills
4. Rolling Green
5. Lancaster
6. Manufacturer's
7. Huntingdon Valley
8. Philly CC
9. Lehigh

The PA grouping of 4-9 seems to be a matter of personal
preference. The folks I know who have played most of them
are apt to pick any one of them as their favorite.

I played Rolling Green too long ago to remember it, and I count the Cascades among my favorites I've played.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2002, 12:05:51 AM »
TE Paul

If you haven't yet played the Cascades- i cannot tell you how much i would recommend you make the 6 hour drive from Philly down there. If you get the golf package there aren't many better deals around. Outside of maybe Bethpage (although it is a pain in the neck to get on there) I can't think of a better deal to play a top 100 course than at the Homestead Cascades (if you get the golf package).

I promise you if you have any interest with Flynn whatsoever, you will love the Cascades. Do yourself a favor and go down there some weekend. In my opinion it is under-rated in the world rankings as I have mentioned on another thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2002, 07:17:59 AM »
Tom and gang:

A links is not a Links course; it is simply a links. Anyone who innocently says "Links course" is practising tautology. A links is a course, and so therefore, to say Links course is the same thing as saying a "course course".

Links is one of those rare English words that works beautifully as singular or plural. A group of links. What a fine links Ballybunion Old is. The links at Dornoch.

Links is a derivative of the 13th century teutonic word, "hlinc" ... which refers to level or undulating sandy ground near a seashore, with turf and coarse grass. But this is overly simplistic.

In the case of the British links, after the last Ice-Age, as the world warmed, billions and billions of tons of meltwater drifted quietly about. Naturally, much ice was melted in the process, but contained within the meltwater was unnquantifiable amounts of sand. Fortuitously for us golfers, this vital element found its way into the bays and estuaries of places like Dornoch, Brora, St. Andrews, North Berwick, and many other inlets known to us today.  

Now what makes links golf special is its links turf: mean; lean; agriculturally barren; hungry; poverty grass species, primarily of the fescues and bents - both fine and wiry varieties. While the cloning and hybrid cross fertilisation methods of producing grass is improving today, nature, via the naturally harsh British climate has selcted specifically for these grasses. Within close proximity, different grass species existed: fine bents and fescues of the sheltered dunes; the nearby lusher meadow estuary grass; a tough, coarse, dune-binding grass known as marram; plus sea-lyme, and other robust species.

The abundance of birdlife was vital to links formations, via droppings (guano), and subsequent germination, that caused, also thanks to the element of wind, much inter-mingling of grass species, arising out of, came, what today is known as links turf. What evolved was a close knit, hardy sward of turf that best charcterises the fast-running British seaside game.

A major point: on a true links with genuine links grass, the ball sits down, unlike the so-called "links-style" course in warmer climates (even those on the seaside) whereby the ball sits up in an exalted position just waiting to be attacked with a "driver off the deck". Again, it comes back to nature: warm climates preferentially select for lush, propserous species - couch, Kykuyu, among them.    

Take any links - Royal North Devon (Westward Ho), Royal County Down, Royal Troon, to name a few, all these were once totally under the sea. Over millenia, the sea retreated, from the nearby higher ground (bluffs, escapments, etc) and left in its wake, humpy, bumpy, finely demarcated, strips
(sliver-like), known as linksland. Herein lies another possible definition: links being "a linking of land and sea".

One vital element to the formation of links was the presence of channels; some remined and today are coined "burns", others dried out and helped form rides and assembly's.

Lets introduce the role of the rabbit, or as an old Scottish charter describes them: "Cunningus". The following didn't happen overnight, but in time, these strips of land became the favourite places of rabbits; the way they multiplied the ancient coastal strips were literally rabbit warrens. While links turf already had a head-start through evolutionary processes, the constant 'nibbling away' by the rabbits only helped produce, and maintain, what we see today. The rabbits were vital in another way. They formed feeding and frollicking habits and in their own tiny way, developed rudimentary pathways. Wouldn't you know it, the fox (plural) went in search of the rabbits and in doing so, widened these tracks just a little more. Not quite a links yet, but perhaps the formation of future fairways are taking shape!

What followed the fox? Humans of course! It is hard not to imagine that in doing so, that these tracks - becoming rather well-warn at this stage - were again widened by the trampling habit of man. The rides and assembly's were further being fashioned. By now, you should almost be able to smell a future fairway. A collaboration: Man; Beast; and Nature, had over a great expanse of time created glorious golfing terrain.

One component of links golf is irrefutable: ideally a links should look like one, but it is even more important to qualify as a true links, that it plays like one! So often, this is not the case. All over the world, seaside course are stamped "Inland" in character, and due to lush grass species, cannot hope to recreate the links experience. Other than getting used to the smaller size 1.62 inch British ball in 1953, Hogan came over two weeks early to Carnousite to ingrain a slight downswing modification that enabled him to pick the ball clean as whistle from the alien turf. The great man left nothing to chance.

The term links has become bastardised. We see rocky, cliff-top golf centres such as Old Head Kinsale, Pebble Beach, and many of the lesser-known Welsh courses, being passed off as links. And it happens all over Australia as well. Forgive me, but as I understand, sand is not too good at jumping 300 feet! At least, not in great quantity. Have we ever wondered why drainage is often so poor at some of these seaside locations? Clearly, they are not links.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2002, 07:31:51 AM »
Apologies for "rabbiting" on. I forgot to answer the question.

Links characteristics:

Open green entrances to allow/encourage the ground game, flanking bunkers (although guarding bunkers is not unknown), greens that ideally won't hold - no matter how good the boys nip 'em.

Vegetation can be varied: gorse, whins, furze (in Ireland), clumps of thickets. Don't ever let anyone say that trees don't exist on links. As you know, the Royal and Anncient can only hold the Open Championship on a links, and Carnoustie has trees. The point is, trees aside, all other intrinsic links features are present at this brute of a links. Obviously, any course with hole after hole negotiation through trees is not a links.

One great hallmark of a links is the presence of greens resting in sheltered enclaves, dells, and the likes.

Regarding the obvious dune systems, true links vary in the magnitude of its dunal aspect from "low-lying" to "gigantic".

Most authentic links - due to its formation - sea recession, channells, and so on, should have a degree of "blind" golf.

Hope this has been of some assistance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

AndyI

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2002, 07:37:15 AM »
Paul Daley:

I think that your etymological discussion of the word "links" just made TEPaul's day!  That was fantastic, thank you.  Perhaps that essay, together with your follow-up post about links characteristics, could be added to the "In My Opinion" section of the site.  It would make a great reference for all of us.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2002, 08:24:17 AM »
Tom,
I'm not as big on "rankings" as you are  ;)   I am also going to pass on saying in public which of his courses is #1 and which one is #5 and so on.  

I will say, however, that all those courses that Golfweek has on their classic list are very good designs and worthy of the praise they've recieved.  I will also say, that if you really want to "rank" them properly, you have to study some of them a little closer than one or two times around.  Some are really really good!  

I've played several other Flynn designs in addition to those listed by GW that deserve merit as well!  As you point out, his inventory of designs is very strong!
Mark

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2002, 08:34:52 AM »
One can argue which is Ross's finest course and which is Tillinghast's finest and which is MacKenzie's finest and which is Thompson's finest - why is it that Shinnecock is by far Flynn's finest?

Something seems odd - was someone else involved at Shinnecock? A piece to the puzzle seems missing!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

schoeller

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2002, 08:52:24 AM »
I have always thought Flynn was one of the very best.  The depth of quality is really impressive.  My personal list:

1. Shinnecock Hills
2. Cascades
3. Lancaster
4. Manufacturers
5. Huntingdon Valley
6. Philadelphia Country
7. Rolling Green
8. Pines Course at Seaview
9. Lehigh
10. Philmont North

I have not played Cherry Hills, so I can't comment.

Has any architect so influenced a specific region as much as Flynn did in Philadelphia?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Church Lady

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2002, 09:09:27 AM »

Quote

Something seems odd - was someone else involved at Shinnecock? A piece to the puzzle seems missing!

Could it be ...................Raynor?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2002, 09:15:36 AM »
Tom P

Bandon and Pacific Dunes are the closest to a British/Irish links that I've played in America.  

But they do feel a bit different.  Partly because the courses are up high on cliffs.  But also, when I played Bandon, the light was much brighter and intense, with bright colours and textures rather than the subdued colours and textures usually found in GB&I:  Pacific Dunes in particular with its exposed dunes, which you rarely find on the older courses links because the wind would just blow the sand everywhere (I suspect PD waters the sand periodically to keep it in place?).

Like Paul wites, links courses are usually minimalist, with the best ones offering unique holes which just aren't found on other courses (less formulaic).  This can be due to factors such as the randomness in lumpy fairways (see Noel Freeman's Deal essay) or blind shots.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

schoeller

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2002, 09:21:00 AM »
I have always thought Flynn was one of the very best.  The depth of quality is really impressive.  My personal list:

1. Shinnecock Hills
2. Cascades
3. Lancaster
4. Manufacturers
5. Huntingdon Valley
6. Philadelphia Country
7. Rolling Green
8. Pines Course at Seaview
9. Lehigh
10. Philmont North

I have not played Cherry Hills, so I can't comment.

Has any architect so influenced a specific region as much as Flynn did in Philadelphia?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2002, 09:32:45 AM »
RJ:

I completely agree that your "links" post should go directly into the "In My Opinion" section of this website for instant access in the future for all of us!

Furthermore both the definition and the "etymological" part of it is so good that you should be given the "Oxford English Dictionary" Award (England is very proud of their OED) for definition and etymologic definition of 2002 which will carry with it Knighthood from the Queen and free golf at any links of your choice for the remainder of your life!!

If that doesn't interest you enough I have one last kicker I will personally arrange. Heidi Klum, the International super model (SI swimsuit cover girl) will offer you a dozen or more dates which she personally will pay for anywhere in the world you'd like to be with her!

Here's why; She's the one that's very interested in golf architecture and has been trying for the last few years to get to bottom of the actual meaning of this "most beloved" term that's been used to describe our Administrator Ran Morrissett.

Heidi Klum is a bit unusual as her intelligence and sense of humor actually are about as impressive as her beauty and sensuality. But she is German and would very much like to be helped (tutored in fact) in the finer points of English/American and its sophisticated definitions and etymologies.

All this is win/win stuff all around and is a natural result of things that should happen to people who write definitions and etymologies as fine as the one you did!

Well done "Sir" RJ!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2002, 09:48:54 AM »
Ran;

The site of Shinnecock and the course and holes that were on it pre-Flynn are interesting and should shortly be  accurately documented by a piece of documentation as to vestiges and such that should clear up all the previous loose ends about the present golf course and should likely blow away many who have been musing on this matter for a long time.

But the course that is Shinnecock should go to Flynn as to architectural attribution, not Dick Wilson or anyone else. But Raynor and even MacDonald may come up in interesting ways in this evolution.

And you ask why would Shinnecock be considered Flynn's finest in his unusually strong career inventory? Probably because Shinnecock may soon be considered the finest of any anywhere and if it's going to beat out every other architect's finest and become the #1 course in the world it's only logical to conclude that it will probably beat out the other courses of Flynn himself.

And then the only remaining question will be will Shinnecock, including Flynn's unusually strong career inventory, actually carry William Flynn himself to the top of the list as the best architect who ever lived?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2002, 10:10:59 AM »
And if that actually does happen, Ran, here will be the logical result and evolution from it;

At that point a comprehensive analysis will be done right here on Golfclubatas, comparing and contrasting as the Final Word, the interconnected evolutionary factors between and among the architecture of the original "Links", the English "Heathland" School (and its architects) that emanated from it, the "Irish" School,  the Early American "National" School (MacD/Raynor/Banks and disciples), the early "New England and New York" School, the mid teen and early 1920s "Philadelphia School" (Flynn) or ("Pennsylvania" School), the "Ross" School, the extraordinary and possibly zenith-like "Monterey" School, the highly adventurous early SoCal "Thomas" (Bell)" School, the Australian "Sand Belt" School and the Alison "Japanese" School.

At that point the definitive history of all things "classic/strategic" pre-WW2 architecture will have been written, you'll be famous, and in constant demand and you can then ditch your day job, repair to an ideal sandy soiled site in the Carolinas and concentrate on the "Carthage Club" School in an attempt to transcend all that has come before it!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Trenham

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2002, 10:17:47 AM »
Does anyone know anything about the connection between Colt and Flynn (Wanye Morrison possibly).

Colt was involved with Pine Valley as was Flynn

The membership at Shinnecock had Colt review Flynn's routing before work commenced (he apparently gave it an extreemly favorable review and made no suggesions).

Colt is given some design credit in the book on the History of Philadelphia Country Club some thing along the lines of an assistance on the routing.

This is all based on memory as I have long been a raving fan of Flynn and have always paid attention to details on his career I come across in my efforts to study golf courses from the 1920's.

TEPaul - I can not agree more on the strength of total effort, another messure would be to compare any architects' first 40 courses before they became in effect a corporation with overhead and staff to keep busy.  Pete Dye could be close on this measure, of those with 40 + courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2002, 10:56:27 AM »
MikeT:

I do not know about a Colt review of Shinnecock. I don't know that much about Flynn or Shinnecock at this point but I expect that will quickly change as I'm really fascincated with the man now and his work and career and his own sometimes unique architectural beliefs and principles.

But as to Colt and Flynn together? I think the very first thing to do with Colt is to establish the number of time Colt may actually have been in America! We certainly know he was here in 1913 when he spent at least a week with Crump in the beginning of the creation of Pine Valley.

But other than that I've never been able to find anyone who can accurately document whether Colt was ever here again.

If he never was here again (other than 1913) Colt and Flynn likely never had a direct connection. Flynn's contributions to PVGC were likely some sort of construction assistance with holes 12-15 which had just been finalized in design before Crump died in 1918. They were constructed off Crump's design plans apparently by the Wilsons (Hugh and Alan) of Merion who naturally Flynn was working closely with at that time on the finishing touches of Merion itself.

Also I believe it's posible that Flynn may have actually constructed PVGC's #9 right green off the design plans of Hugh Alison who made a comprehensive hole by hole design recommendation report for the so-called PVGC 1921 Advisory Committee (brought into existence to finish the course following Crump's death) that was working in detail off of two independant reports of Crump's closest friends of their "remembrances" of what Crump planned to do (had he lived)!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2002, 05:46:48 PM »
According to his biography, Colt's first visit to Pine Valley was in 1911, he visited Toronto too, nothing on any other stops on the way.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2002, 05:52:26 PM »
Should be the spring of 1913. Crump did not buy Pine Valley until the fall of 1912.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Ranking William Flynn's own career inventory
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2002, 06:27:21 PM »
Tom Paul

According to his bio Colt made two visits.  I made a mistake above.  The bio lists courses under year and has Pine Valley and Toronto listed under 1911/1912.  It's probably 1912 since Toronto is credited as having being built in 1912 (in C&W)

Then under 1914 the North American courses are listed as Detroit, Pine Valley (second visit), Hamilton.  

These dates are lifted straight from C&W.  The bio author did this for all the North American (and most of the British courses with a few more details).

C&W is obviously wrong about the 1914 date.  It should read 1913.  But Colt's biographer does claim that this was Colt's second visit, not first and only, and we know he was in North America earlier because Toronto was built in 1912.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »