[TEPaul]

Paul:

I don't know about Toronto but it's fairly accurately documented at PVGC, I as far as I can see, that Colt was at PVGC with Crump in May or June of 1913 for a week, perhaps two. It's also mentioned in some of the writing that Colt may have come from Canada to meet Crump at that time.

As far as I can tell Colt may never have returned to America and so not to Pine Valley obviously but if he did I certainly would like to know about it.

Colt left Crump with some very detailed hole drawing but from the look of them they are not much like the way PVGC was built and is today certainly not in the placement and such of bunkering and the general feel of the holes which are primarily the unique Crump "island landing areas" so to speak. Colt's hole drawing were far more like a conventional course without those landing areas!

But the overall hole sizes, pars, basic corridors are quite similar calling into question the routing itself who did it and when?

[Paul Turner]

Tom

I've not seen read any suggestion that Colt visited PV after his May 1913 visit, although he certainly knew how the "island" style turned out because he treasured some photos sent by Crump; plus he would have had Alison's accounts later on.

I am convinced that Colt made two separate trips to the US.  It's pretty obvious from other course dates and the fact he designed some courses back in Britain between the two trips.  The earlier trip being in 1912 when according to Hawtree's bio Colt visited PV.  

I wonder if there is any documentation of that very early period?  Soon after Crump bought the land or maybe even before he bought the land?  Surveying potential sites?  I guess it's all open to speculation.  Either there isn't any record of this time or it has been missed??

One other point.  Tom MacWood suggests in his Art and Crafts essay that there is some evidence to indicate that Colt visited Merion.  Which I think would fit with that earlier trip, since wasn't Merion built in 1912?

[TEPaul]

My apologies to Paul Daley! For some reason I paid tribute to RJ Daley for Paul's extraordinary definition of "links" on the preceding page. RJ and Paul aren't the same person, are they?

I even recommended that RJ should be knighted by the Queen and I offered to supply him Heidi klum and more than a dozen dates with her. I'll fix that and Heidi does realize that reward needs to go where reward needs to go!

Paul Turner:

The record at Pine Valley is very clear when Colt was there! In my opinion, one piece of evidence that has always been present (Crump's routing scheme) simply needs to be analyzed far more closely to understand that particular collaboration between Crump and Colt!

It is so easy sometimes to look at something that might seem obvious and make an assumption that could potentially skew an entire and very important conclusion!

Here's an example: On that routing scheme there's a date--March 1913!! The man that did the most work analyzing the collaboration between Crump and Colt ASSUMED, for some reason, that that date meant that Crump had completed that routing (in March of 1913) BEFORE Colt arrived in May-June of 1913!

It appears to me that that date (March 1913) on the routing scheme may have been the surveyor's date of the property which would mean it was the date the surveyor completed the topo survey map and gave it to Crump to put his routing scheme on!

I'm sure you see what this means or could mean! But if you look at the routing scheme very carefully you can see that two men clearly worked on it (obviously both Crump and Colt)! Their lines and notations, handwriting, drawing styles etc are very different but they are both on the same piece of paper!

Since I know how the course came to be built and what it is today (extremely similar to how it was built) I can compare those two men's work on that plan and see almost exactly how they diverged as obviously Crump changed things to some extent after Colt had left.

It would logically be hard to figure out at this point who put their drawing hand (and consequently whose ideas various holes were) on that routing scheme first but there's actually a very logical way of even determining that too!

It really shows this: Lots of people have looked at that scheme over the years but never thought or knew how to really analyze it properly so various assumptions and then conclusions were made that may not have been accurate and fact. But I believe the truth is all still there--it just needs to be accurately analyzed!

And so it goes with analyzing early architecture. If you have original evidence the truth is probably there if looked at correctly. Making assumptions off of something someone wrote later can in many cases be very misleading--because those people may not have analyzed that evidence correctly in the first place.

[brad_miller]

Ran, in regards to Shinny, maybe it was the land and location, great natural topography, sandy soil, wind, and enough of this great land to create a wonderful, easy to walk routing. Ran think its time for match play against PV. (But PV will still win)

[TEPaul]

Paul Turner;

I do not know at this point what Colt may have done at Merion. But at this point there are some things that anyone should keep in mind. The men that started PVGC were many of the same men that belonged to Merion and were working on it--a project that was also quite slow in developing in both construction and improvement and maturation. The process at Merion could have taken a full 20 years to finalize into what it basically is today! But despite the durations we know that both were simultaneous to a great extent!

John Ott of Pine Valley says it best! To understand these early and great Philadelphia courses--and to understand the entire "Philadelphia School of architecture" (more properly known as the "Pennsylvania school" because of the collaboration at PVGC of Oakmont's William Fownes) one needs to understand and appreciate that all these men were close friends and sometimes worked together in a collaborative sense on most of these courses. It's so natural then that Harry Colt may have gone the not great distance to Merion.

The "Philadelphia School" of architecture is actually not a "style", per se! What it was was a group of very close friends who were doing their own things but many times in close collaboration with each other. Some of their ideas were quite different from one another and their courses still show that today but they did hang around with each other all the time and the essence of the "Philadelphia School" is not a style but a certain diverse "collabortive modus operandi".

The "Monterey School" was also a group of friends working both together and separately to an extent on various courses but it shows me a much more identifiable "style". This is probably explainable by how close the working relationship was in Monterey and also possibly the dominant influence of MacKenzie and particular his Hunter run American Construction Co.

[brad_miller]

Tom, think one could get a little of this collaboration going today, this might be one of reasons (many others) that todays efforts don't stand up to those of the "Golden Age"

[Paul Turner]

Tom Paul

That is an amazing revelation!!!  

I knew that the current view was that Colt was not involved in the routing because, as you state, the March 1913 routing
predated Colt's perceived first visit, May 1913.  And so it was always strange as to why both Crump and Colt were credited for the routing in so many texts!

Can you decipher or maybe be more precise on whose hand writing is seen on which holes?  Doesn't Hunter in The Links actually separate out credit for a few holes, I wonder if these follow the routing plan(s)?

Any idea when Colt was first there, more precisely?  I wonder why only Hawtree (Colt's bio) appears to have picked up on this? None of the other references, I can find, pick up on it.

Is Colt's drawing book dated?

It's a very tricky business this course history stuff!

[TEPaul]

BradM;

Do I think collaboration among architects can take place again today?

I think it's possible but nothing like back then--nothing at all like that! I think it can take place today but it would take the efforts of a very unusual and astute character to do it--one who would obviously have to be very well connected and very persuasive. And that kind of collaboration might only be a one time thing!

In a way, the supreme example will always be Crump--he had the ability somehow to bring all those people together into the creation of Pine Valley. I don't think there has ever been a collaborative effort quite like that before or since--matter of fact I know there hasn't been.

The interesting thing about Pine Valley's creation is that he may have induced one to come down there but after a while the others came because they heard that something truly amazing was happening in Clementon NJ. The duration of the creation obviously had a lot to do with that and during that time Crump's learning and talent curve was clearly dramatic!

But the competitive nature of the business today and just the "business" nature of the business today will inherently prevent it!

Again, to look at the "collaborative" nature of the "Philadelphia School" one must understand that they were all good friends but more importantly three of the five were men who only did one or two or a very limited number of courses--Crump, Wilson and Thomas! And those same men, as good as they may have been, never took a dime for anything they ever did in architecture! That's really important to understand! Their type of collaboration was probably a snap to them because it wasn't a business to them it was a love and a passion only!

Tillinghast was definitely one of them but he went on to make it a business and to Flynn it was always a business.

The "Monterey School" was really no different with a number of passionate, intelligent and talented people who sort of collaborated around one world class professional!

I think it could happen today and I think a number of us would like to see it happen and would like to make it happen. We'd do it but would the professionals who are in the business do it more for the passion than the business? They'd have to do it for the passion to a large degree or it would be too expensive!

But if it could ever happen again with the right architects who would probably inherently have to be like-minded this time in architectural principle to a large degree, perhaps slightly different that way to those guys back then, I think it would be hallmark!

Without some central character involved and ultimately the editor of it all perhaps the product wouldn't even be hallmark but the perception of it would be, at least for a time.

But with a character like Crump, with his unusual talents and that kind of collaboration, my bet is that it would be a hallmark product--different than PV in many ways maybe but one that might get the world's attention like PV did.

[brad_miller]

Tom, thanks, nice to dream, I agree with all points, particuarly the business aspects, talk more offline. B

[Paul Turner]

Tom Paul

As for Merion, I agree I think it would have only been natural for Colt to visit.  Wonder if he advised at all?  And he probably met Flynn there.  I think you're the man with the detail eye to finding out!

I've also heard that there is evidence that Colt advised at some time at Garden City and The Country Club:  he included these courses in an advertisement.

It would make sense for Colt to try and cram in a lot of visits during his trip, 'cos you couldn't just flip back and forth across the Atlantic in those days! Plus he had projects in the UK at the same time.

It's clear to me that Pine Valley would really benefit from a detailed "Building of Pine Valley" book, it would be uniquely fascinating.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I agree with TE, Colt only made the one visit to PV. The information on his visit to Merion was taken from an article on the history of PV written by Charles Price. He claimed PV records showed that Colt was in the area doing work at Merion and also at Seaview in Atlantic City. But he also said that the was news to both Merion and Seaview. And Colt never claimed any work at either course, so if he was at either I suspect it was for pleasure or very minor consultation.

Alison was the one who was impressed with Flynn's plan at Shinnecock and he was also involved at Philadelphia CC.

Back to Flynn, in all the rankings of his work no one has brought up his very impressive Ohio work -- Country Club, Pepper Pike and Elyria, nor his Florida work that included Indian Creek and Boca Raton. And seventy years ago you might have gotten an arguement on his best design, Shinnecock or Lasker's Mill Road Farm.

[TEPaul]

BradM:

With this thought about architectural collaboration happening again today anything like the way it may have happened back then, particularly in the case of PV and some of the other early ones, there may be a sort of supreme irony at work then and even more so today.

It may be that the ingredient most essential to carry off a great hallmark world class product in architecture anything like those ones back then might just be PASSION, plain and simple!

Just look at the courses that had the passion at creation!

Myopia
NGLA
PVGC
Oakmont
Merion
Pebble
Cypress
Pasatiempo
ANGC
GCGC
Shinnecock
Riviera
Pinehurst #2
Friar's Head
Stonewall
RedTail
And a number of others!

Passion helped make them what they are and pride will help them survive into the future!

Passion generally has a way of making things feel like they're  happening just for the love of it and that aura really attracts and appeals to others, but business has an odd way of tainting that or even killing that, many times just the perception of it! Perceptions are nuancy and tricky and the ulterior motive of money has a funny way of creating its own odd scent and sometimes real early!

As a great example and indication of true unadulerated passion one cannot find a better example than Howard Perrin's original Pine Valley membership solicitation letter. The letter alone is a true classic and obviously a great indication of things to come!

[PauL Turner]

Sorry, I didn't read Tom Paul's post carefully enough.  I misread the first sentence and thought he was confirming an earlier visit!

Still it's very interesting about the new routing info.

[TEPaul]

In a way I'm sort of hoping that last post to BradM might somehow turn out to be, after three years on here, my own ultimate word on golf course architecture! The sometimes unseen or unknown but primary ingredient, passion, to create really lasting hallmark architecture, and the natural evolution from it, pride, that's essential to allow it to survive the way it should!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
I agree that is fascinating and brilliant (and very logical)discovery -- a possiblity that seems to have been overlooked for a good many years. I don't think I would've been able to figure that out. But it makes perfect sence, no doubt Colt would have requested that he have a topo map of the property available and thus the date. There would be really no reason for either Crump (or Colt) to date a realtively informal routing, sketches and notes.

TE
Would you describe the routing in question as more or less a working document and not a formalized plan?

[brad_miller]

Tom P, not that your list was all inculsive, but one must along with FH list Mr. Keiser's project and Sand Hills as modern courses built with passion and love of the game and friendship first and foremost, this is as it should be in the perfect world.

[BCrosby]

Does anyone know anything about Indian Creek in Florida?  Is it worth a visist?  I've heard very little about it.

Bob

[brad_miller]

Played it a couple of times long ago pre -interest in architecture, fine course, great lockeroom, and I believe they have done significant work on course in last 4-5 years.

[TEPaul]

Definitely worth a visit. I can't believe I've never been there having spent so much time down there in my life but I haven't been. My brother in law belongs to it and apparently it's pretty darn private.

I've been hearing a ton about it recently and it appears to be a true little member's style course (the kind that Ross built so many of) which might be a tad unusual in the broad scheme of Flynn's general career style but they say it's so much fun to play--some really cool architecture to it. Just another impressive course from Flynn.

If Flynn ever built a clunker (other than one that's only a clunker because it's been turned into one after him) I sure haven't heard about it yet!

[Adam_Messix]

BCrosby--

I had the opportunity to play Indian Creek in Bal Harbor a couple of years ago with one of the assistant professionals there.  

Some people may know more about it than I do but apparantly it was built on a man-made island that was created from the dredging of the intracoastal waterway by the Army Corp of Engineers.  Similar to Shinnecock Hills, the clubhouse sits on a high perch looking down on the 9th and 18th greens (both of which are par 5s for members, but par 4s for tournaments--which I think are rare here)  

Also similar ot Shinnecock, the best holes are holes 9 through 13.  The 10th is a mid-long par 4 that dog legs slightly to a greens that has a bunker on the front right that is a little farther short of the green than it looks.  The 11th is a teriffic uphill par 5 (surprise for Florida) to a green that sits on a high perch that features some big swinging putts from above the hole.  The 12th was featured in golf magazine and is a terrific mid-long par 3 at about 190 yards shooting over a piece of the intracoastal and usually into a strong ocean wind.  The 13th is a short par 4 with the intracostal down the entire left side and doglegging to a green that is perched up the waterway. With the apparant usual left to right crosswinds, it's easy to have a long approach into a green designed for a 330 yard hole.  

The other feature of Indian Creek are the green complexes.  Many of them had mowed collars that allowed the ball to roll away from the perched greens....similar to Shinnecock (not nearly as severe as Pinehurst #2)  The problem during my visit was that the grasses in the collars were not consistent...there was common bermuda mixed in with the dwarf and finer strains....this made it difficult often times to play the correct shot around the greens because of the inconsistent bounces.  Part of Ron Pritchard's work there was to fix this problem.  

I am hoping to get back down there this winter....it' quite a place.  

Tom Paul--

I have not heard anyone mention The Springhaven Club, which is located just South of Rolling Green and Merion.  As memory serves, the course is really tough for the first 11 holes and then the last 7 seemed rather cramped....It was still a fun course to play...... What's the story...Did Flynn run out of room?

1. Shinnecock Hills
2. Huntingdon Valley
3. Manufacturers
4. Lancaster
5. Cascades
6. Rolling Green
7. Indian Creek
8. Lehigh
9. Woodcrest
10. Springhaven

#2-#8 on the list are really close...you could put them in any order and I wouldn't argue with you.  They are all REALLY good...and the more I play the Philadelphia courses that Flynn does, the more Cascades moves down my list.  

[wsmorrison]

BCrosby,

I have yet to see Indian Creek in person.  It is on reclaimed land that has its place in the early history of mechanized earth moving for a golf course.  Flynn directed that the island be built up in some places by 35 feet!  This is the site of the clubhouse which overlooks a very interesting golf course.  It is a very private island with some celebrities living around the course.

Ron Forse restored the course begining in 1995 and has a real fondness for the place.  Of course Ron knows his Flynn having worked at Lehigh for many years and more recently at Philly CC.  I know that CDisher is down there now hopefully getting a look at the place.  The green keeper is exceptionally knowledgeable and understands the importance of being a curator for a great course by one of the great architects of all time.

I can't wait to see it for myself someday soon, I hope.

[Adam_Messix]

Oops--

Wrong Ron in my post...I had Ron Prichard's name in my head and that's what I typed.  I agree with wsmorrison's opinion that the job Forse did at Lehigh was tremendous.  

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