[Matt_Ward]

Someone asked me this and I just stopped to think about -- after BB's hosting this year -- what LI course will host the next US Open there? I was always hoping Shinnecock Hills would again return to the rota but I hear from some knowledgeable types that it may be quite some time -- not until after 2020 before the club decides to give it another shot. Or it may drop out for even longer.

Clearly, BB would enjoy the host role again for a prospective 3rd time.

Have to wonder if Michael P's move at Sebonack to host a Women's Open is an early attempt to woo the USGA for a possible Men's event there?

Be curious to see what shakes out.

[PCCraig]

I think Long Island gets far too many Opens as is. Not to say the courses aren't great, but there are other areas of the country that would be far better served with an Open.

Think;

Chicago (Cog Hill OFCC)
Indiana (Crooked Stick for an Open?, Dye Course at French Lick going for a PGA?)
Wisconsin (Erin Hills)
Ohio
Oregon
Texas
etc
etc
etc

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Let's get real - OK !

The US Open is not some sort of carnival or political convention that needs to be shipped around to places that are less than superior.

Shinnecock Hills merits an Open every 7-8 years at minimum -- BB has the wherewithal to host an Open in also a comparable time frame. Keep this in mind, the addition of BB has come at the expense of Baltusrol which used to be on the rota of sites.

The US Open is not a politically correct traveling show so that all parts of the country are treated equally.

The issue is seeing the US Open return to Shinnecock Hills because -- besides Pebble Beach -- is likely the finest US Open site we have in this country (although Oakmont supporters -- me being one of them -- can also push the Pennsy course too).

[Bill_McBride]

This is similar to the question, where would you rather see the U.S. Open, Pebble Beach or Torrey Pines?

Political correctness runs amuck.

[Jason McNamara]

The US Open is not some sort of carnival or political convention that needs to be shipped around to places that are less than superior.

It's not about wanting courses that are geographically fair.  It's about wanting venues that aren't in New York.    It's like wanting (say) a Rangers-Brewers World Series, and having the Mets miss the playoffs due to a loss on the last day of the season.  At home.  In extra innings.  On a balk.  Later shown to be a bad call.

This will be the 4th Westchester/Long Island Open in the 2000's.  There were 5 total between 1946 and 1999, and somehow we survived.  Talk about your massive overcorrection.

There hasn't been an Ohio open for 30 years (and counting).  The 2013 Open at (the course that starts with M) will be the first Philly Open in 32 years.  Are there really no other venues available?

[David Kelly]

The US Open is not some sort of carnival or political convention that needs to be shipped around to places that are less than superior.

Unfortunately that is exactly what it is.

[Chip Gaskins]

I played Baltusrol today and the member basically confirmed the US Open train has left the station for good.  They are a PGA shop from this point forward.  So I think what Matt said was spot on, Bethpage has basically replaced Baltusrol in the rotation.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Please tell me in what meaningful way from a design and championship dynamic that the following NY courses are deficient ...

* Shinnecock Hills

* Winged Foot / West

* Bethpage / Black

I am well aware that there are a number of Americans who have a real hard time in dealing with NY hubris. The reality is that from the golf design side of the aisle -- the courses I just mentioned are solid in so many ways for such an event.

The US Open should go to those sites that are clearly heads and shoulders above the rest. The idea that the Open miust visit each section of the country because of political correctness is a dynamic that I see as way down the totem pole of importance. No doubt when courses is quality come forward then the US Open should go there.

I was not a fan of Torrey Pines but what happened there last year with Woods winning will long be remembered. I don't favor going back there because the course overall is so lack luster.

I have a great amount of respect for what Ohio has in terms of golf designs. But what OH site wants to have the US Open -- maybe Inverness -- and even then is that layout at the same level as the three from NY I just mentioned ? No doubt the PGA Tour visits Ohio at least twice -- Fiirestone and Muirfield Village -- each year.

Yes, the Open will go to Merion but we shall see how the course fares when the top players return there after such a long absence. Johnny Miller said it best -- the US Open needs to be at PB and SH every 6-7 years. They represent well the two (2) coasts and have demonstrated the wherewithal to be all that a US Open site should be.

Lastly, I say what I just said -- not as a homer for NY but for the mere elevation of the best venues for such an event. No doubt there are other venues and the USGA is including them as need be. I started this thread with the hope that SH is not pushed to the wayside because of the debacle that happened at the '04 event.

[Bill Gayne]

If I were to create a rota for the US Open, I would add three courses to the list above: Pinehurst, Pebble Beach, and Oakmont.

[Jason McNamara]

Please tell me in what meaningful way from a design and championship dynamic that the following NY courses are deficient ...

I in no way argued anything like that, and do not think that's the case.  Please be sure you don't misrepresent my position.

The reality is that from the golf design side of the aisle -- the courses I just mentioned are solid in so many ways for such an event.

I don't disagree - I just think 4 visits in 8 opens is rather enough.  So I am glad the USGA will taking a break from NY for the next few years.

The US Open should go to those sites that are clearly heads and shoulders above the rest.

Well, how small a circle are you going to draw?  (And we both know that's not the USGA's sole criterion, so let's not stray too far in that direction.)

The idea that the Open miust visit each section of the country because of political correctness is a dynamic that I see as way down the totem pole of importance.

Again, that's an argument I am not making.  I am in Houston, and I know we won't ever get another Open for reasons both architectural and climatological.  I am OK with that.

I was not a fan of Torrey Pines but what happened there last year with Woods winning will long be remembered. I don't favor going back there because the course overall is so lack luster.

Yet it's likely they'll be back, since there's no other SoCal venue at the moment.

I have a great amount of respect for what Ohio has in terms of golf designs. But what OH site wants to have the US Open -- maybe Inverness -- and even then is that layout at the same level as the three from NY I just mentioned ?

Is Pinehurst at that level?  Congressional?  Chambers Bay?  Inverness has the old guys in two years, btw, so I imagine there'd be interest.

No doubt the PGA Tour visits Ohio at least twice -- Fiirestone and Muirfield Village -- each year.

True, but not terribly relevant, since we both know that the PGA visiting two venues in a state does not militate against the USGA selecting a third venue in that state.  Or even one of the PGA venues, in the case of Torrey.

We haven't mentioned MSP or anything in Michigan either.  For that matter, aren't there NJ courses that should be in consideration?  I believe you are not quite as much of fan of Baltusrol compared to some others, but surely NJ must have some options - other than Trump, of course.  (I fully support the USGA's no-fake-waterfall rule.)

Johnny Miller said it best -- the US Open needs to be at PB and SH every 6-7 years. They represent well the two (2) coasts and have demonstrated the wherewithal to be all that a US Open site should be.

I am not opposed to something along those lines, though I admit I think of it less in terms of a strict rota.  And really, should the US have a smaller rota than the UK's 10 (9, but TOC twice)?

Lastly, I say what I just said -- not as a homer for NY but for the mere elevation of the best venues for such an event.

Which is not what the USGA wants.  Or it kind of is, but with conditions.  We'd both appreciate an Open at Bandon, but it's not going to happen.

Why not Prairie Dunes?  The TV execs would hate it, and so would that segment of the corporate chumps who are only there for schmoozing customers in the tents.*  Perfect.  (Before you mention weather, know that in mid-June it is rather similar to that of Pinehurst, btw.)  Or can it not be lengthened?  I realize it's a par 68 for the pros as is.

* I hereby propose that 2016 US Open be awarded to the best course in a dry county.  

[Richard Hetzel]

If I were to create a rota for the US Open, I would add three courses to the list above: Pinehurst, Pebble Beach, and Oakmont.

Matt,

Agree on BB and SH, but in my humble opinion, Winged Foot needs trees removed. Let's just place Oakmont in there instead!

[Tom_Doak]

Matt and others:

Where the Open is to be played is a combination of logistics, USGA politics, and club politics.

With all due respect to Johnny Miller, Shinnecock Hills has no desire to have the Open every 7 years.  In fact, at the end of each Open, they are usually swearing off ever having it again, and they need to put three or four years behind them before their egos start to miss it and they ask again.  I suspect this is the same at other clubs as well ... hosting the Open is a huge pain in the ass, but once that is forgotten the ego takes over again.

I am sure that Michael Pascucci would love to host the US Open someday [and while he is still around to see it], but the last fellow who got to do that was the guy who built Hazeltine National, and he rigged the deck [he was on the USGA executive committee when the tournament was awarded], and thus ruined it for everyone since.

Shinnecock is over everything now and they really want the Open back and are negotiating to get it.  I don't know for what year, but you know it will happen, and you know they're not going to play it less than a mile away in between now and then.

[Phil McDade]

Matt:

Why do you think both Cog Hill and Erin Hills are massively -- in the case of Cog Hill, virtually entirely -- reworking their courses as we speak (or write these threads)? They know full well what others like Dan and Tom point out -- the selection of the US Open course is tied only partially to the course's merit as a test of golf. The USGA would like to put an Open in the Midwest, and those two courses darn well know that.

A lot -- a whole lot -- of other considerations play into this, and a central one is the desire of the USGA to move the course around to various parts of the country (which, as far as I can tell, has little or nothing to do with political correctness, however you want to define that hackneyed phrase). The USGA does so for two reasons, as far as I can tell (one meritorious, one the reality of the day): I actually believe the USGA when they say they want golf fans in, say, the Midwest to at least have the opportunity to see (and volunteer at) an Open. They also want to tap into the regional corporate sponsorship dollars that are the reality of the Open/USGA relationship. (I mean, you don't think the USGA chose Chambers Bay solely on the merits of the design there, do you? It wouldn't have anything to do with the corporate dollars available from the local software manufacturer, would it?)

Shinnecock is about as good of a US Open course as I can imagine; in a perfect world, it would be placed in a rota ala the Open Championship and played there every 6-7 years as you suggest. But that's not the reality of the USGA/US Open these days; inevitably, the US Open will be held on course that you (and probably I) view as less worthy -- strictly from an architectural standpoint -- than SH, BB, or even WF.

[jkinney]

Matt:

Why do you think both Cog Hill and Erin Hills are massively -- in the case of Cog Hill, virtually entirely -- reworking their courses as we speak (or write these threads)? They know full well what others like Dan and Tom point out -- the selection of the US Open course is tied only partially to the course's merit as a test of golf. The USGA would like to put an Open in the Midwest, and those two courses darn well know that.

A lot -- a whole lot -- of other considerations play into this, and a central one is the desire of the USGA to move the course around to various parts of the country (which, as far as I can tell, has little or nothing to do with political correctness, however you want to define that hackneyed phrase). The USGA does so for two reasons, as far as I can tell (one meritorious, one the reality of the day): I actually believe the USGA when they say they want golf fans in, say, the Midwest to at least have the opportunity to see (and volunteer at) an Open. They also want to tap into the regional corporate sponsorship dollars that are the reality of the Open/USGA relationship. (I mean, you don't think the USGA chose Chambers Bay solely on the merits of the design there, do you? It wouldn't have anything to do with the corporate dollars available from the local software manufacturer, would it?)

Shinnecock is about as good of a US Open course as I can imagine; in a perfect world, it would be placed in a rota ala the Open Championship and played there every 6-7 years as you suggest. But that's not the reality of the USGA/US Open these days; inevitably, the US Open will be held on course that you (and probably I) view as less worthy -- strictly from an architectural standpoint -- than SH, BB, or even WF.

Everything Tom says above is correct. There were 3 Opens in 18 years at Shinny, and it was exhausting. The bad taste in members' mouths after the USGA's greenkeeping errors on Sunday in '04 have largely passed. That Shinny is a national treasure on which the Open should be contested is  realized by the membership. Having another Open is a matter of agreeable contract terms with the USGA, an unknown at present.

[jkinney]

Sorry, Phil. I was trying to quote Tom Doak in the post above you. It's my first visit to the new website, and I screwed up.

[PCCraig]

Pat:

Let's get real - OK !

The US Open is not some sort of carnival or political convention that needs to be shipped around to places that are less than superior.

Shinnecock Hills merits an Open every 7-8 years at minimum -- BB has the wherewithal to host an Open in also a comparable time frame. Keep this in mind, the addition of BB has come at the expense of Baltusrol which used to be on the rota of sites.

The US Open is not a politically correct traveling show so that all parts of the country are treated equally.

The issue is seeing the US Open return to Shinnecock Hills because -- besides Pebble Beach -- is likely the finest US Open site we have in this country (although Oakmont supporters -- me being one of them -- can also push the Pennsy course too).

Entitlement will get you no where.

Sure it will go back to the area, but why does it have to? Out of 100 Open venues I would take Oakmont 90 times, bethpage 7 times, and Shinnecock 3 times.

I'm sorry but if it wasn't for the vast army of media support and attention (you), no one would care about New York/NJ's venues.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat C:

Drop the kool-aid can you've been drinking -- with all due respect.

I love Oakmont and salute it for what it provides. But if you think BB and SH are THAT far below Oakmont you are seriously high on something. The Pennsy layout is a gem and I know it should host an Open every ten years if possible. BB and SH are no less viable from a course standpoint and from the immesne $$ they generate for the event.

The quality of the metro NYC area golf is far beyond my support and those of the media as you erroneously claim. Ask any knowledgeable source and they will admit that the metro NYC area has the greatest depth of superior courses in the USA -- albeit nearly all of them private. The idea that self-promotion from an army of scribes makes the US Open visit the NYC-metro area is inane. The course qualities are there for anyone with eyes to see.

Tom D / Phil M:

That's fine and dandy -- but I understand that the USGA is not going to run back to SH without serious concessions from what was done previously. Clearly, the LI layout is a gem and my desire -- along with Johnny Miller's was for the layout to be on the list more frequently. Clearly, that can't happen but the club was going with an Open every nine years until the run ended in 2004.

No doubt the move towards public courses is another leverage point for the USGA to reap even more $$.

My main concern is that SH is not a victim of internal greed because the layout is clearly a proven commodity of unsurpassed greatness.

Phil, I am not naive to believe that certain people have lobbied for the event for a whole host of selfish reasons. Hazeltine holding it in 1970 is one good example -- there are others. No doubt it helps build the enthusiasm for the game to bring an Open to an area where it's not been for quite some time. I can remember vividly seeing the faces of people when the Open returned to Olympic in '87 after 21 years being away. Ditto when the Open returned to OH/S in '85 after being away for 24 years. The same will likely happen in 2013 when Merion comes back onto the stage.

I don't know how well Chambers Bay will be received. Clearly, the stunning location will make for some fine blimp shots -- to say the least. At the end of the day -- the USGA needs the Open to be a financial windfall given what the balance sheet they have requires.

Final item -- no doubt a metro Chicago site -- (that includes Erin Hills) has to be on the short list for a future championship.



Jason:

Here's my response to your comments -- mine are in bold face only for separation purposes -- not emphasis.

*****

Please tell me in what meaningful way from a design and championship dynamic that the following NY courses are deficient ...
I in no way argued anything like that, and do not think that's the case.  Please be sure you don't misrepresent my position.
I DIDN'T MISREPRESENT YOUR OPINION -- YOU MADE THE ARGUMENT FOR SOME SORT OF LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WITH OTHER AREAS OF THE COUNTRY. I SAID THAT THE US OPEN IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED ON ONLY THE BEST OF THE BEST LOCATIONS. THE NEW YORK METRO AREA HAS LONG BEEN LAUDED AS THE FINEST COLLECTION OF GOLF CLUBS AND COURSES IN THE NATION. THEREFORE, IT STANDS TO REASON THAT THE AREA WILL HAVE MULTIPLE LOCATIONS FOR THE EVENT. THE US OPEN NEED NOT REDUCE ITSELF TO SIMPLY SPREADING THE HOSTING FUNCTION BECAUSE OF A NEED FOR GEOGRAPHICAL CORRECTNESS.


The reality is that from the golf design side of the aisle -- the courses I just mentioned are solid in so many ways for such an event.
I don't disagree - I just think 4 visits in 8 opens is rather enough.  So I am glad the USGA will taking a break from NY for the next few years. JASON, THE RUSH IN NEW YORK RECENTLY WAS OVER A SHORT WINDOW -- NO DOUBT BUT AS I SAID PREVIOUSLY JUSTIFIED BECAUSE OF COURSE QUALITY. I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH "TAKING A BREAK" PROVIDED PLACES LIKE SHINNECOCK HILLS RETURN SOON.

The US Open should go to those sites that are clearly heads and shoulders above the rest.
Well, how small a circle are you going to draw?  (And we both know that's not the USGA's sole criterion, so let's not stray too far in that direction.) THINK OF THE RATHER SMALL CIRCLE THAT THE R&A USES FOR THE OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I SEE ROUGHLY 6-8 COURSES IN THE USA AS REPEAT MAINSTAYS. SH, WF AND BB ARE AMONG THAT EIGHT.

The idea that the Open must visit each section of the country because of political correctness is a dynamic that I see as way down the totem pole of importance.
Again, that's an argument I am not making.  I am in Houston, and I know we won't ever get another Open for reasons both architectural and climatological.  I am OK with that.
JASON, THE LIKELIHOOD OF TEXAS HOSTING IS INDEED A LONG ONE. NO DOUBT THE PGA TOUR VISITS DO NOT HELP MATTERS GIVEN THEIR USE OF SOME OF THE ALREADY EXISTING BEST COURSES. UNFORTUNATELY, THE USGA WENT TO SOCAL SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE MARKETPLACE. FORTUNATELY FOR THEM -- THE EVENT THAT HAPPENED THERE WILL FOREVER STAY IN ON'E COLLECTIVE GOLF MEMORY.

I was not a fan of Torrey Pines but what happened there last year with Woods winning will long be remembered. I don't favor going back there because the course overall is so lack luster.
Yet it's likely they'll be back, since there's no other SoCal venue at the moment.
AGREED -- BUT IT MAY BE AT ANOTHER SITE -- CAN'T RULE OUT RIVIERA IF CIRCUMSTANCES WORKED OUT WELL.

I have a great amount of respect for what Ohio has in terms of golf designs. But what OH site wants to have the US Open -- maybe Inverness -- and even then is that layout at the same level as the three from NY I just mentioned ?
Is Pinehurst at that level?  Congressional?  Chambers Bay?  Inverness has the old guys in two years, btw, so I imagine there'd be interest.
JASON, PINEHURST IS CLEARLY ON THE ROTA OF LAYOUTS. FRANKLY, SOMEONE HAS TO TELL ME WHAT THE BIG DEAL IS WITH CONGRESSIONAL -- OTHER THAN BEING IN OUR NATION'S CAPITAL AND HAVING THE PRESIDENT POSSIBLY STOP BY AS CLINTON DID DURING THE '97 EVENT. I HAVE NO IDEA ON HOW WELL CHAMBERS BAY OR EVEN MERION WILL FARE. WE SHALL SEE ON BOTH FRONTS. I LIKE INVERNESS AND CLEARLY IN HOSTING THE NCAA MEN'S CHAMPIONSHIP THEY WANT TO MAINTAIN SOME SORT OF PROFILE. BUT I DON'T KNOW WHEN 0R MORE LIKELY IF THE TOLEDO-BASED LAYOUT WILL GET ANOTHER BITE AT THE OPEN APPLE.

No doubt the PGA Tour visits Ohio at least twice -- Fiirestone and Muirfield Village -- each year.
True, but not terribly relevant, since we both know that the PGA visiting two venues in a state does not militate against the USGA selecting a third venue in that state.  Or even one of the PGA venues, in the case of Torrey.
JASON, THE MARKETING SIDE OF THE EQUATION COMES INTO PLAY -- EVEN MORE SO WITH A SLOW ECONOMY. THE USGA WILL BE THINKING LONG AND HARD IN USING ALREADY USED PGA TOUR SITES BECAUSE THERE'S ONLY SO MANY DOLLARS AVAILABLE FOR HAVING MULTIPLE EVENTS WITHIN THE SAME YEAR AT THE SAME SPOT.

We haven't mentioned MSP or anything in Michigan either.  For that matter, aren't there NJ courses that should be in consideration?  I believe you are not quite as much of fan of Baltusrol compared to some others, but surely NJ must have some options - other than Trump, of course.  (I fully support the USGA's no-fake-waterfall rule.)
JASON, BALTUSROL MADE A VERY SMART AND STRATEGIC MOVE IN OPTING WITH THE PGA OF AMERICA. IT WAS EITHER DO THAT OR FOREVER BE PUSHED ASIDE. THE USGA WILL NOT BE RETURNING TO THE SPRINGFIELD CLUB FOR WHO KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS. IN REGARDS TO OTHER NJ CLUBS TO HOST THE US OPEN -- LIKELY ONLY TRUMP'S EFFORTS IN BEDMINSTER HAS THE WHEREWITHAL TO HANDLE ALL THE LOGISTICS FOR SUCH AN EVENT. PLAINFIELD AND RIDGEWOOD ARE TWO SUPERB LAYOUTS BUT CAN BARELY HANDLE THE MINOR EVENTS THAT HAVE BEEN PLAYED THERE. THE US OPEN IS A QUANTUM JUMP THE SCALE IN SO MANY WAYS.

IN REGARDS TO MI -- NO DOUBT OH/S IS IN THE MIX -- BUT IT SEEMS TO BE MORE ALIGNED WITH THE PGA THAN THE USGA.


Johnny Miller said it best -- the US Open needs to be at PB and SH every 6-7 years. They represent well the two (2) coasts and have demonstrated the wherewithal to be all that a US Open site should be.
I am not opposed to something along those lines, though I admit I think of it less in terms of a strict rota.  And really, should the US have a smaller rota than the UK's 10 (9, but TOC twice)?
JASON, THERE'S NO REAL SUBSTANIAL ARGUMENT THAT CAN BE MADE AGAINST THE LIKES OF PB AND SH -- I AGREE W JOHNNY MILLER THAT BOTH SHOULD BE INCLUDED WITHIN A 7-8 TIME FRAME PERIOD. THEY ARE THAT GOOD AND HAVE DEMONSTRATED THAT IN NUMEROUS WAYS OVER THE YEARS.

Lastly, I say what I just said -- not as a homer for NY but for the mere elevation of the best venues for such an event.
Which is not what the USGA wants.  Or it kind of is, but with conditions.  We'd both appreciate an Open at Bandon, but it's not going to happen.
THE NEW YORK AREA HAS THE BEST COLLECTION AND DEPTH OF LAYOUTS -- IT STANDS TO REASON THEY WILL GET MORE OVER A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME THAN OTHER LOCATIONS. I'D LIKE TO SEE OTHER LOCATIONS BE WORKED INTO THE MIX BUT I WONDER IF SUCH COURSES (E.G. PRAIRIE DUNES) WOULD WANT TO ALTER THEIR COURSE TO SERVE IN SUCH A HOST ROLE?

Why not Prairie Dunes?  The TV execs would hate it, and so would that segment of the corporate chumps who are only there for schmoozing customers in the tents.*  Perfect.  (Before you mention weather, know that in mid-June it is rather similar to that of Pinehurst, btw.)  Or can it not be lengthened?  I realize it's a par 68 for the pros as is.

* I hereby propose that 2016 US Open be awarded to the best course in a dry county.  

[Phil McDade]

Sorry, Phil. I was trying to quote Tom Doak in the post above you. It's my first visit to the new website, and I screwed up.

All the more reason to re-design the re-design!

[Jason McNamara]

I DIDN'T MISREPRESENT YOUR OPINION --

Matt, you didn't ask me *if* I thought the NY courses were deficient.  You asked me to detail *how* I thought the NY courses are deficient.  I don't.  Your phrasing assumes a stance I do not take.

YOU MADE THE ARGUMENT FOR SOME SORT OF LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WITH OTHER AREAS OF THE COUNTRY. I SAID THAT THE US OPEN IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED ON ONLY THE BEST OF THE BEST LOCATIONS. THE NEW YORK METRO AREA HAS LONG BEEN LAUDED AS THE FINEST COLLECTION OF GOLF CLUBS AND COURSES IN THE NATION. THEREFORE, IT STANDS TO REASON THAT THE AREA WILL HAVE MULTIPLE LOCATIONS FOR THE EVENT.

I agree.  NY overall has 14 of Golf Magazine's Top 100, 15 of Golfweek's Top 100 Classic.  Both numbers include Oak Hill, btw.  I'm good with 2 stops in NYC per decade (and another in NJ or Oak Hill).

THINK OF THE RATHER SMALL CIRCLE THAT THE R&A USES FOR THE OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I SEE ROUGHLY 6-8 COURSES IN THE USA AS REPEAT MAINSTAYS. SH, WF AND BB ARE AMONG THAT EIGHT.

Yes, though the Open has a much smaller pool based on the number of total courses, and then further reduces the numbers by limiting the Open to links courses.  The R&A is picking the best 9 out of what, 200?  Not that I understand that either - is the R&A really damaged by an Open at Walton Heath or the Alwoodley instead of (say) Carnoustie or Birkdale?  (Nothing crazy - once a decade.)

THE LIKELIHOOD OF TEXAS HOSTING IS INDEED A LONG ONE.

I think you're overly generous here.  I expect it never to happen again, certainly not in Houston.

AGREED -- BUT IT MAY BE AT ANOTHER SITE -- CAN'T RULE OUT RIVIERA IF CIRCUMSTANCES WORKED OUT WELL.

Riviera is mostly a question of whether the club wants it, isn't it?

PINEHURST IS CLEARLY ON THE ROTA OF LAYOUTS.

I realize that.  But my question to you was, is Pinehurst as good as the NYC courses?

THERE'S NO REAL SUBSTANIAL ARGUMENT THAT CAN BE MADE AGAINST THE LIKES OF PB AND SH

Again, that is not an argument I am making.  (I never even mentioned Pebble.)  Honestly, sometimes I think that in your hurry to make what are usually good points, you respond to arguments your correspondents do not make.  I'll defer to Tom Doak on Shinnecock.

Thanks for your responses.

[Tom Dunne]

Pat Craig,

So you're saying that if it weren't for the *media* we'd finally be out from under the thumb of boring old Shinnecock Hills (one of the five founding members of the USGA) and could finally bring our national championship to places like Cog Hill, Erin Hills and Crooked Stick? I'm glad you're not in charge, dude.

[Matt_Ward]

Rich H:

I can't argue with your preference for Oakmont but WF/W has taken down plenty of trees. As an FYI -- where Lefty missed it at the 72nd hole just a few years prior to the '06 event was loaded with timber. Phil could play from that position when he missed it badly there.

Oakmont is clearly a firsrt rate venue and clearly needs to be on the most immediate of short lists for must plays.

Jason:

Let's just say in my mind the NY metro area should be a three-time venue host through the layouts I mentioned. The area has the overall size and corresponding fan base to make the numbers too good to pass up for the USGA.

Regarding Texas -- I can see the Dallas / Ft. Worth area being considered if the moment and $$ were present.

One of the reasons why The Open Championship is so valued by many is that the standard for those sites hosting the event is so high and without being negative -- predictable. The USGA has tried to include new layouts -- BB is clearly replacing the likes of Baltusrol as just one example. Likely if SoCal is a definite visit area -- as well as the Bay Area -- then Torrey / Riviera and Olympic will likely remain in place.

I attended the two US Opens at Pinhurst #2 and while the first one was memorable for Payne Stewart -- the second was far less so.

I like the layout of #2 -- less penal and more thought provoking in terms of how you need to approach all of the holes. I don't see #2 as an equal to Shinnecock -- I have a preference for WF/W being slightly ahead and BB being a tad behind #2. The USGA has a deep fondness for Pinehurst #2 and it will remain. If that happens I can't see how Quail Hollow can jump in ahead of the Ross layout. Possibly Quail Hollow lands a PGA.

Jason, my final comments are not being able to make an argument against Shinnecock and PB were not directed to you personally -- but to the broader group. Don't take the personalized approach to what I write. It's meant for wider digestion and not at you or what you mentioned. Try to have a bit more of a thicker skin -- I do understand your comments and my main point from the very beginning was to see that SH is brought back into the main frame for the event. Some people believe the fallout from the '04 event is now behind most of the key players -- given the scheduling of what's already in place I'm still a doubter until the final decision is announced and officially signed. We shall see ... for me personally a US Open should be held in the NY area roughly every four years with the three sites rotating in on that time line. The flip can happen for the California sites with each of the two key areas (LA & SF) being once every five years. Oakmont and Pinehurst #2 would also be included into the mixture.

For what it's worth -- I think if Merion does well -- that such a situation does not bode well for Congressional. Minus the nation's capital tag and the obligatory salute to Venturi's '64 win I see nothing at the Bethesda layout being especially noteworthy.

[Jason McNamara]

Jason, my final comments are not being able to make an argument against Shinnecock and PB were not directed to you personally -- but to the broader group.

My mistake then - I should have realized that "JASON, THERE'S NO REAL SUBSTANIAL ARGUMENT THAT CAN BE MADE AGAINST THE LIKES OF PB AND SH" was meant for everyone.  

For what it's worth -- I think if Merion does well -- that such a situation does not bode well for Congressional. Minus the nation's capital tag and the obligatory salute to Venturi's '64 win I see nothing at the Bethesda layout being especially noteworthy.

Except being the nation's capital is enough, not that either of us thinks it should automatically be so.

Your proposed (12-year?) rotation doesn't look bad - 2.5 NYC visits per decade vs. my 2 is close enough.  My concern with the 7-course rota mentioned by some here is that it could shut out a lot of courses, and I think it's good that room is left for an Olympia Fields.

[Matthew Mollica]

I'd love to see a rota of Shinnecock, Bethpage, Pebble, Pinehurst #2, Oakmont, Winged Foot West and maybe 3 others.
Each course / Club hosting the US Open once a decade. Quality courses, and a relatively even geographic distribution possible.

MM

[PCCraig]

Pat Craig,

So you're saying that if it weren't for the *media* we'd finally be out from under the thumb of boring old Shinnecock Hills (one of the five founding members of the USGA) and could finally bring our national championship to places like Cog Hill, Erin Hills and Crooked Stick? I'm glad you're not in charge, dude.

Hardly Tom.

Why does Shinnecock Hills have to host the Open every 10 years? Or Bethpage? Or Wing Foot? Why? Are they great golf courses, sure. But they are not the only great golf courses in the United States! They become "boring" when you see them once every seven years. The same courses played by the same people in the same conditions. Snoooze. I would rather see the Open go back to clubs like Merion and TCC that haven't had it in twenty-plus years than the same god damn New York courses because every USGA numbskull likes holding the Open close to home in their buddy's clubs. It also doesn't help when you have reporters from the big cities (Ward) that would cry themselves to sleep if they didn't get 3 Opens a decade...that's insane!!! And what doesn't add to the situation is that Matt Ward and the rest of New York feels full on entitled to 3 Opens a decade. Give me a break.

The last time I checked the USGA stood for the UNITED STATES GOLF ASSOCIATION. Think of the many golf courses that are just as capable of holding the Open in places other than the Northeast alone?

But of course, Tom, you and Matt Ward probably don't care, and feel that your courses are far greater than anything else in the country even after seeing "thousands and thousands" of courses in Ward's case.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Let me help you out if I can.

Golf is a game of tradition and innovation. Honoring the past is part and parcel of what makes golf so grand a game. That doesn't mean the past is imbedded if other options are available. Bethpage has now become a part of the US Open rota because it provided a public course nexus and it doesn't hurt to be just 35 miles east of Manhattan and have all the logistics one can want to for such an event in the 21st century.

Once a decade for the elite few courses would leave enough room for any "new" course to be introduced. Here's what you said previously -- you made the case that only media support is what drives the attention to the layouts in the greater NYC metro area. That is completely rubbish. Please knock yourself ut and let me know what other area in the USA is remotely close to the sheer depth of great courses that the NYC metro area has. Oh, they might have one or two -- but not as many as what the USGA has rightly recognized when bringing the game's premier event here. I'm not suggesting that the US Open be held here every year or every other year -- but three venues are rock solid for what they provide -- SH, WF/W and BB.

The validation of Bethpage was also bolstered when Tiger Woods won there.

Pat, let me also help you with your take on the other clubs you mentioned. I too want to see how well the forthcoming US Open will be at Merion. Let's just see if the course is sufficiently strong enough for the world's top players now -- from a 21st century perspective. In regards to TCC - the club is not able to handle the logistics of what a modern event entails -- that's why they balked when thinking of hosting the 100th US Open in honor of Ouimet's win there from 1913.

This silly idea that logrolling is front and center for the reason why NY metro area courses are used is also preposterous. The logistics needed for an Open are enormous -- course quality is front and center and ditto the wherewithal to include all the dimensions that a modern event must have.

Pat you keep sipping kool-aid with this inane thought that MANY golf courses are able to host an Open. Really? Please fire away with your listing since you are so knowledgeable in that regard and others are -- myself included -- asleep at the switch.

One final thing -- my support of couses doesn't wrap itself around regionalism -- I have been a fan and advocate of courses in far flung locations here in the USA and if you have paid a modium of attention you would know that. The issue for the US Open is coursequality and in conjunction with dealing with a myriad of central concerns for a 21st century event. No doubt making $$ is a big time matter to the USGA but the sites listed from the NYC area are extremely strong  from a competitive standpoint. Like I said -- the USGA has seen fit to mix and match a worthy blend of different sites into the mixture.

Shinnecock Hills is a world class venue and along with Pebble Beach and Oakmont would form my first page troika of couses for the event. BB and WF/W would be on the short list but in the next grouping. Of course, you'll continue to trumpet the mistaken belief that homerism is the central motivator here. I would hope your head would clear from the effects of the kool-aid for you to understand that.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()