The next US Open on Long Island ...

[Cabell Ackerly]

Pat:
The logistics needed for an Open are enormous -- course quality is front and center and ditto the wherewithal to include all the dimensions that a modern event must have.

Pat you keep sipping kool-aid with this inane thought that MANY golf courses are able to host an Open. Really? Please fire away with your listing since you are so knowledgeable in that regard and others are -- myself included -- asleep at the switch.

Shinnecock Hills is a world class venue and along with Pebble Beach and Oakmont would form my first page troika of couses for the event. BB and WF/W would be on the short list but in the next grouping. 

Matt - I won't argue that SH, PB and Oakmont are world class venues, but I'm not totally convinced that architecture really matters that much in a US Open anyway. Typically the USGA narrows the fairways down so much that most of the strategic play off the tee is eliminated. At the green speeds the USGA strives for, just about any place will suffice (unless - god forbid -  they have too much undulation). Didn't the US Open at Torrey Pines prove that the event can still be as interesting as ever to the viewing public even without a "world class" venue?

As I see it, all a course needs is the infrastructure. The USGA and the players will take care of the rest.

[PCCraig]

Pat:

Let me help you out if I can.

Golf is a game of tradition and innovation. Honoring the past is part and parcel of what makes golf so grand a game. That doesn't mean the past is imbedded if other options are available. Bethpage has now become a part of the US Open rota because it provided a public course nexus and it doesn't hurt to be just 35 miles east of Manhattan and have all the logistics one can want to for such an event in the 21st century.

If Golf is a game of innovation it and its ruiling body should be able to be innovative and not keep returning to the same tired and "logistically" wonderfully NYC area. I'm not sure how a tournament in the NYC or Long Island area can be that much logistically better than any other city in the United States. The hot, crowded, mess that the tri-state area makes up is hardly conductive to visitors. Or do we only hold the Open for residents of NYC and Long Island?

Once a decade for the elite few courses would leave enough room for any "new" course to be introduced. Here's what you said previously -- you made the case that only media support is what drives the attention to the layouts in the greater NYC metro area. That is completely rubbish. Please knock yourself out and let me know what other area in the USA is remotely close to the sheer depth of great courses that the NYC metro area has. Oh, they might have one or two -- but not as many as what the USGA has rightly recognized when bringing the game's premier event here. I'm not suggesting that the US Open be held here every year or every other year -- but three venues are rock solid for what they provide -- SH, WF/W and BB.

What the hell does the area's depth of golf courses have anything to do with where they hold the Open? It doesn't matter if the area has a 100 Open worthy courses...the circus that is the US Open should be moved around the United States to courses outside some bull "rota". Why do you and every other New Yorker feel entitled to having the US Open 30% of the time? Does the area hold 30% of the USA's great courses? Does it hold 30% of the population? No.

SH, WF, AND BB are great and all, but are they really that much better to host the Open? SH had to damn near kill the greens to make the course play hard in the modern era, and produced a somewhat boring result in 2004. WF's last Open was a snooze as well, who wants to watch the best players shoot +7? BB is remembered well mostly because Tiger won there and it's a public golf course. No one remembers all the players complaining that it wasn't a fair golf course and too hard for the pros?

The validation of Bethpage was also bolstered when Tiger Woods won there.
Agree, what if Jeff Maggert won? Wasn't it validated when the USGA themselves pumped $ into restoring the course?

Pat, let me also help you with your take on the other clubs you mentioned. I too want to see how well the forthcoming US Open will be at Merion. Let's just see if the course is sufficiently strong enough for the world's top players now -- from a 21st century perspective. In regards to TCC - the club is not able to handle the logistics of what a modern event entails -- that's why they balked when thinking of hosting the 100th US Open in honor of Ouimet's win there from 1913.

As for Merion, who cares if it's "strong" enough?? It's going to be a blast to watch today's best players play the same course in similar conditions as Jones, Hogan, and Jack. I don't care if Tiger shoots -10, there is more strategy in 9 holes at Merion then there is at WF and BB combined

This silly idea that logrolling is front and center for the reason why NY metro area courses are used is also preposterous. The logistics needed for an Open are enormous -- course quality is front and center and ditto the wherewithal to include all the dimensions that a modern event must have.

Course quality has nothing to do with it when the USGA sets all courses up essentially the same way. TP last year was refreshing in that it was a course at least no one had seen before as an Open venue. Does the average golfer remember the strategy on any "rota" Open holes in NY? No. But they remember Pebble, they remember ANGC, they remember the 18th at TP, the 18th at Olympic, 18th at Merion, etc... The only thing most golfers know about WF is that Phil should of hit a 3-wood instead of driver.

As for logistics, there are 100's of courses across the country with the space and close proximity to a major city, why is it so much easier to get to Long Island than it is OFCC?

Pat you keep sipping kool-aid with this inane thought that MANY golf courses are able to host an Open. Really? Please fire away with your listing since you are so knowledgeable in that regard and others are -- myself included -- asleep at the switch.

Wake up.

Pebble Beach - Rota
Olympic Club - Rota
Los Angeles CC - If they wanted
Riviera - Easy
Cherry Hills - Short but could be done, very possible in the near future.
Seminole - Short but possible.
TPC Sawgrass - Why not, they had the US Am and Players every year.
Old Memorial - Hard enough and good enough.
Ocean Forest - Sure, held the Walker Cup.
East Lake - Easy.
Medinah - If the PGA wasn't there they could
Butler National - Course is good enough.
Chicago Golf - If they wanted it.
OFCC - Sure, see 2003.
Rich Harvest Links - The owner wants one and it's hard enough. Harder than WFW.
Cog Hill - Near Future.
Beverly - Not #1 in Chicago but they could make it work.
Victoria National - Sure
Wolf Run - Sure
Crooked Stick - Possible after this summer. Look for the near future.
Dye Course at French Lick - PGA will be all over this site, USGA would have no problem with makeing this hard enough and to work logistically.
Prarie Dunes - Sure
Congressional - 2011
Baltimore CC - This would be far more interesting than WF or BB
TCC Brookline - If the members wanted it again they could. Far more interesting than BB.
Boston GC - This would be neat and doable.
Salem CC - Easy.
Oakland Hills - Near future.
Arcadia Bluffs - This could be done.
Point O Woods - This would be very neat. Perfect Open course that happnes to be only 1.5 hours from Chicago. How long from NYC to SH?
Interlachen CC - Easy.
Hazeltine National - Easy.
Bellerive - Near Future.
Sand Hills GC- This would be awesome and doable.
Pinehurst #2 - Rota
Pine Needles - Never happen with #2, but possible.
Muirfield Village - Sure.
The Golf Club - Sure
Inverness - Easily done see this past weekends NCAA.
Scioto- With re-do it could be done.
Canterbury - See the senior PGA
Firestone - Sure.
OSU Scarlett - possible with the recent re-do.
Southern Hills - see 2001
Pumpkin Ridge - See US Am in 90's
Oakmont - duh.
Merion - duh
Aronimink - Sure
Stonwall - a stretch, but sure.
Newport CC - Sure
TOC Kiawah - If not for the PGA the USGA would have a field day with it.
Long Grove Club - why not.
The Honors Course - Sure
Colonial - Sure
Pete Dye GC - very neat.
Whistling Straits - See PGA comment
Milwaukee CC - very cool.
Blackwolf Run - See Women's Open.


One final thing -- my support of couses doesn't wrap itself around regionalism -- I have been a fan and advocate of courses in far flung locations here in the USA and if you have paid a modium of attention you would know that. The issue for the US Open is coursequality and in conjunction with dealing with a myriad of central concerns for a 21st century event. No doubt making $$ is a big time matter to the USGA but the sites listed from the NYC area are extremely strong  from a competitive standpoint. Like I said -- the USGA has seen fit to mix and match a worthy blend of different sites into the mixture.

The USGA shouldn't be worried about making a profit. They should be worried about thier mission statement of spreading the game.

Shinnecock Hills is a world class venue and along with Pebble Beach and Oakmont would form my first page troika of couses for the event. BB and WF/W would be on the short list but in the next grouping. Of course, you'll continue to trumpet the mistaken belief that homerism is the central motivator here. I would hope your head would clear from the effects of the kool-aid for you to understand that.
Why bother watching the same style Opens on the same courses over and over?

[Jay Flemma]

I'd love to see any major hosted at Sawgrass or have the TPC be elevated to a major, but it won't happen till Tiger's done.

Pat, I'm not a fan of Cog Hill.  I don't know Crooked Stick that well.  I'll see Hazeltine this year, but I'm not holding my breath it'll knock my socks off.  I can't wait to see White Bear Yacht though.

Matt, I love Shinny, WF, Oakland Hills and Oakmont, but I don't think the Black is quite as good.  It's on par with Baltusrol, but I think it's not as good as the others.

Oakland Hills, however, was an incredibly good surprise!

[PCCraig]

Pat, I'm not a fan of Cog Hill.  I don't know Crooked Stick that well.  I'll see Hazeltine this year, but I'm not holding my breath it'll knock my socks off.  I can't wait to see White Bear Yacht though.
Jay

Jay-

My main point wasn't that the courses outside of the NYC area are better, just that there are many very good and great courses that don't get the Open or enough exposure because of the repetitive nature of the Open "rota" with three courses seen in the greater NYC area every 10 years.

[Jeff Evagues]

After playing both BB is overrated and Sebonack could hold the Open tomorrow.

[Jay Flemma]

Pat, I'm not a fan of Cog Hill.  I don't know Crooked Stick that well.  I'll see Hazeltine this year, but I'm not holding my breath it'll knock my socks off.  I can't wait to see White Bear Yacht though.
Jay

Jay-

My main point wasn't that the courses outside of the NYC area are better, just that there are many very good and great courses that don't get the Open or enough exposure because of the repetitive nature of the Open "rota" with three courses seen in the greater NYC area every 10 years.

I'll grant you that.  We have three cali Opens in 5 yrs too.  I don't know why we couldn't have a US Open at Oakland Hills again.  Erin Hills will be interesting, and so will Chambers Bay.  Pinehurst seems to work well too.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff E:

Can you tell me specifically what you didn't like about BB. I have opined previously that day-to-day set-up of the course doesn't serve the architecture that is present. Fairways are too narrow in many spots with dense rough flanking the holes and the "wild" look that was BB from years ago needs to return.

I too like Sebonack but it will be interesting to see if it makes a move for a US Open -- I can only see that happening if SH somehow decide to opt out -- that would be a major loss to all.

Pat:

Let's start from the beginning again -- shall we?

You were the one opined only media (people like me and others) were supportive of New York metroi area courses having the event so many times at different places. That's not the case and you can tapdance around it all you want -- but the NY metro area has the finest collection (depthwise and at the very top) than any other area in the USA. It stands to reason with such a fine array of first class courses the USGA would want to stage the national championship there so many times.

You make the erroneous conclusion that my support of the area is tied to homerism or "regionalism" -- that's not the case. If places like Montana and Wtoming had such a stellar depth of courses I would tout their usage in no less the same manner. You say you are a fan / advocate of "courses in far flung locations" and if you have bothered to pay attention to my posts I have been a big time advocate of golf in the forgotten mountain time zone area in the USA for all the reasons you outlined.

Pat, do yourself a favor -- take your head out of the sand. The USGA needs the US Open to cover their associatec costs for all that they do -- including growing of the game. The US Open is the main frame why NBC pays the big bucks to televise it. It certainly is not the networkl's interest to air such events as the US Women's Open or Senior Open. The big daddy -- US Open -- is what gives the USGA added muscle to spread their message.

You ask why bother watching the US Open from the same site(s)?

Ask yourself this -- you watch the Masters each year and it comes from the same place year after year -- not every 8-10 years in a spread time frame. You also have The Open Championship contested on the same small grouping of preferred links courses -- The Old Course is featured every five years or thereabouts. Does that lower the stature of either major ? I don't see the US Open being lowered in any way should they visit the top three places I mentioned every 8-10 years in the likes of PB, SH and Oakmont with the second tier being the likes of BB and WF/W thrown into the mix as well.

Since you took the time to list various venues I will respond to each of them (my responses are in bold face simply for differential purposes not intent).

Pebble Beach - Rota -- ABSOLUTELY

Olympic Club - Rota -- ABSOLUTELY

Los Angeles CC - If they wanted -- NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN AS CLUB WOULD HAVE CHANGE IN A NUMBER OF WAYS TO HANDLE A US OPEN

Riviera - Easy -- WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT BUT IT APPEARS TOREY PINES SEEMS TO HAVE THE EDGE FOR THIS LOCATION

Cherry Hills - Short but could be done, very possible in the near future. -- INTERESTING YOU SAY -- BUT DOUBTFUL. COURSE WOULD NEED TO BE STRETCH TO NEARLY 8,000 YARDS TO BE TRULY COMPETITIVE.

Seminole - Short but possible. -- PAT, LET'S BE SERIOUS -- THE ONLY SITE EAST OF THE MISSISSIPII RIVER AND SOUTH OF DC THAT WILL HOST THE US OPEN FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE IS PINEHURST #2. IF YOU RECALL THE PGA WENT TO SOUTH FLORIDA FOR THE '87 PGA CHAMPIONSHIP AND THE RESULTS WERE ABYSMAL.

TPC Sawgrass - Why not, they had the US Am and Players every year.

Old Memorial - Hard enough and good enough.

Ocean Forest - Sure, held the Walker Cup.

East Lake - Easy.

Medinah - If the PGA wasn't there they could

Butler National - Course is good enough.

Chicago Golf - If they wanted it.

OFCC - Sure, see 2003.

Rich Harvest Links - The owner wants one and it's hard enough. Harder than WFW.

Cog Hill - Near Future.

Beverly - Not #1 in Chicago but they could make it work.

Victoria National - Sure

Wolf Run - Sure

Crooked Stick - Possible after this summer. Look for the near future.

Dye Course at French Lick - PGA will be all over this site, USGA would have no problem with makeing this hard enough and to work logistically.

Prarie Dunes - Sure

Congressional - 2011

Baltimore CC - This would be far more interesting than WF or BB -- PAT, PLEASE HELP ME STOP LAUGHING. I HAVE A HUGE AMT OF RESPECT FOR FIVE FARMS -- BUT IT IS NOT WF/W OR BB -- IT'S LIKE COMPARING A GOOD MINOR LEAGUE PITCHER FOR SOMEONE IN THE LINES OF NOLAN RYAN.

TCC Brookline - If the members wanted it again they could. Far more interesting than BB. PAT, AGAIN TCC COULD BARELY HANDLE THE CROWDS AND LOGISTICAL ELEMENTS WHEN THEY HELD THE RYDER CUP. CLUB INITIALLY WANTED THE '13 US OPEN BUT SANER HEADS PREVAILED.

Boston GC - This would be neat and doable. LET'S BE SERIOUS -- A PRIVATE RETREAT CLUB -- WONDERFUL DESIGN BUT NOT FOR A US OPEN.

Salem CC - Easy. HAD A TOUGH TIME TO HOSTING THE SENIOR OPEN AND A PREVIOUS WOMEN'S OPEN -- GOOD LAYOUT FOR SURE BUT AGAIN TCC IS THE BEST BOSTON OPTION AMONG THE OLD TIME LAYOUTS.

Oakland Hills - Near future. CLUB IS ALIGNED MORE RECENTLY WITH THE PGA -- COULD RETURN FOR THE GREATER DETROIT AREA OR A POSSIBLE MOVE WITH INVERNESS.

Arcadia Bluffs - This could be done. IF YOU CAN SEND THE GALLERIES IN BY BOAT THEN FINE. SOLID LAYOUT BUT THE RESORT WILL NEVER HAVE SUCH AN EVENT.

Point O Woods - This would be very neat. Perfect Open course that happnes to be only 1.5 hours from Chicago. How long from NYC to SH? HOSTING A WESTERN AM IS ONE THING -- HOSTING THE BIG TIME PLAYERS OF THE WORLD QUITE ANOTHER. BENTON HARBOR IS ALSO A BIT ON THE LOW SIDE WHEN COMPARED TO SOUTHAMPTON.

Interlachen CC - Easy. PLEASE -- THE PLACE IS WAY TOO SHORT AND WAY TOO SIMPLE A DESIGN FOR THE PREMIER PLAYERS.

Hazeltine National - Easy. CLUB IS MOVING MORE TOWARDS THE PGA THEN THE USGA.

Bellerive - Near Future. TALK ABOUT BORING COURSES.

Sand Hills GC- This would be awesome and doable. A GREAT FANTASY BUT ONE THAT WILL LIVE MORE IN YOUR DREAMS.

Pinehurst #2 - Rota

Pine Needles - Never happen with #2, but possible. YOU ANSWERED YOURSELF -- #2 IS THE ONE FOR THE AREA.

Muirfield Village - Sure. WOULD BE NICE BUT THE USGA, NOT NICKLAUS, WOULD DETERMINE HOW THE COURSE WOULD PLAY. DON'T SEE JACK GIVING UP HIS PREROGATIVES.

The Golf Club - Sure. THE CLUB DOESN'T HAVE INTERNAL EVENTS -- CLEARLY A US OPEN IS NOT WHAT THEY WANT.

Inverness - Easily done see this past weekends NCAA.

Scioto- With re-do it could be done. WONDERFUL LAYOUT BUT WAY TOO SMALL LOGISTICALLY FOR SUCH A BIG TIME EVENT.

Canterbury - See the senior PGA. I LIKE THE COURSE A LOT BUT SEE THE ABOVE ANSWER AS ONE REASON WHY IT WON'T LIKELY HAPPEN.

Firestone - Sure. IF OH ENTERS THE SCENE -- THE ABOVE THREE COURSES YOU MENTIONED HAVE A BETTER CHANCE.

OSU Scarlett - possible with the recent re-do. C'MON -- AGAIN ANOTHER FANTASY PICK.

Southern Hills - see 2001 -- IF YOU WANT A SOUTH CENTRAL SITE -- SH WILL BE THE ONE. PRAIRIE DUNES IS A FASCINATING COURSE BUT IT WOULD NEED TO BE STRETCHED NEEDLESSLY TO BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN WHAT THE WORLD'S BEST CAN DO.

Pumpkin Ridge - See US Am in 90's. AGAIN THE CHAMBERS BAY INSERTION MAKES IT A CANDIDATE TO HANDLE THE MOVEMENT TO THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST. PR WAS LOOKING TO HOST A US OPEN BUT I DON'T SEE EITHER WITCH HOLLOW OR GHOST CREEK BEING VIABLE.

Oakmont - duh.

Merion - duh

Aronimink - Sure. IF THERE'S GOING TO BE A PERMANENT PHILA SITE -- IT'S MERION.

Stonwall - a stretch, but sure. YOU ANSWERED YOURSELF.

Newport CC - Sure. AGAIN, SURLEY YOU JEST. THE PLACE HAS PLENTY OF HISTORY -- BUT IT'S PAST ORIENTED. WORTHY OF US AMATEURS AND WALKER CUPS BUT NOT THE ULTIMATE CHAMPIONSHIP IN AMERICAN GOLF.

TOC Kiawah - If not for the PGA the USGA would have a field day with it. NO DOUBT A STRONG LAYOUT BUT THE PGA OPTED FOR IT -- THE USGA WOULD RATHER BE IN AND AROUND MAJOR METRO AREAS TO DRAW FROM. THE ISOLATION OF KIAWAH WILL BE TESTED WHEN THE PGA CHAMPIONSHIP IS PLAYED THERE.

Long Grove Club - why not. -- SURLEY YOU JEST !!!

The Honors Course - Sure. PAT, SEE MY COMMENTS ON SITES BELOW THE MASON DIXON LINE AND EAST OF THE MISSISSIPPI.

Colonial - Sure - AGAIN, NOT LIKELY WITH THE PGA TOUR THERE AND THE AVERSION TO GOING TO TEXAS BY THE USGA.

Pete Dye GC - very neat. -- WONDERFUL IDEA BUT AGAIN NOT LIKELY BECAUSE OF LOCATION -- OAKMONT TAKES IN THE IMMEDIATE AREA AS THE SURE CANDIDATE.

Whistling Straits - See PGA comment -- PAT, HERB KOHLER HAS MADE HIS BED WITH THE PGA OF AMERICA -- THE USGA WILL LIKELY OPT TO GO WITH ERIN HILLS FOR A FUTURE US OPEN.

Milwaukee CC - very cool. WONDERFUL DESIGN BUT TOTALLY INADEQUATE TO HOST SUCH A BIG TIME EVENT AS THE US OPEN.

Blackwolf Run - See Women's Open. -- WAS USED BY KOHLER TO GET THE USGA'S ATTENTION FOR A FUTURE US OPEN BUT SINCE THAT TIME KOHLER WENT WITH WHAT THE PGA PROVIDED -- A ENCORE PGA CHAMPIONSHIP AND A FUTURE CONNECTION TO OTHER ASSOCIATION EVENTS.

I HAVE ALSO ANSWERED YOUR MOST RECENT REPLIES IN BOLD -- SEE BELOW ...

If Golf is a game of innovation it and its ruiling body should be able to be innovative and not keep returning to the same tired and "logistically" wonderfully NYC area. I'm not sure how a tournament in the NYC or Long Island area can be that much logistically better than any other city in the United States. The hot, crowded, mess that the tri-state area makes up is hardly conductive to visitors. Or do we only hold the Open for residents of NYC and Long Island?

PAT, YOU MUST HAVE A BUG UP YOUR BUTT WHEN IT CONCERNS THE NY METRO AREA. THE WHEREWITHAL TO GET PEOPLE TO AND FROM THE SITES LIKE BB IS FAR EASIER THAN IT IS TO PROVIDE FOR PARKING IN SUCH CRAMPED RECENT PLACES LIKE OAKMONT. YOU BITHCH ABOUT THE 'HOT CROWDED MESS THAT THE TRI-STATE AREA MAKES--UP -- YOU MUST HAVE FORGOTTEN ONE OTHER THING THAT YOU NEVER ADMIT OR REALIZE -- THE SHEER DEPTH AND GREATNESS OF THE COURSES IN THE NY METRO AREA SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. HOSTING THE EVENT EVERY FOUR YEAR AT SH, BB AND WF/W IS NOT THAT MUCH OF A MONOPOLY AND WOULD PERMIT OTHER CLUBS TO BE INTRODUCED BY THE USGA AS CIRCUMSTANCES PROVIDE.

What the hell does the area's depth of golf courses have anything to do with where they hold the Open? It doesn't matter if the area has a 100 Open worthy courses...the circus that is the US Open should be moved around the United States to courses outside some bull "rota". Why do you and every other New Yorker feel entitled to having the US Open 30% of the time? Does the area hold 30% of the USA's great courses? Does it hold 30% of the population? No.

PAT, LET ME TRY AGAIN IN ENGLISH SO YOU CAN FOLLOW THE ARGUMENT. PLEASE TELL ME HOW THE THREE COURSES I MENTIONED ARE DEFICIENT -- IN REGARDS TO THE POPULATION ASPECT -- THE I-95 CORRIDOR HAS, IF MEMORY SERVES, OVER 30% OF THE NATION'S POPULATION -- WHEN FACTORED FROM BOSTON THRU THE DC AREA. IT IS ALSO THE HOME TO THE FINEST COLLECTION OF COURSES IN THE NATION AS WELL -- THE NY NETRO AREA IS BLESSED TO HAVE HAD THE GREATEST COMBINATION OF ARCHITECTS AND LAND SITES FOR THE GOLF COURSES THAT RESIDE HERE. IF YOU TAKE YOUR ARGUMENT SERIOUSLY THEN PLEASE TELL THE R&A THAT LINKS COURSES SHOULD BE BALANCED WITH PARKLAND COURSES IN AND AROUND LONDON.

SH, WF, AND BB are great and all, but are they really that much better to host the Open? SH had to damn near kill the greens to make the course play hard in the modern era, and produced a somewhat boring result in 2004. WF's last Open was a snooze as well, who wants to watch the best players shoot +7? BB is remembered well mostly because Tiger won there and it's a public golf course. No one remembers all the players complaining that it wasn't a fair golf course and too hard for the pros?

BLAME THE USAG FOR BAKING THE GREENS AT SH. THE PLACE WAS FINE AS IS UNTIL OFFICIALS WITHIN THE USGA LOST CONTROL OF THE COURSE. THAT'S WHAT UPSET THE FOLKS AT SH -- QUITE RIGHTLY I MIGHT ADD -- IN DISCUSSING FUTURE RETURNS TO THE CLUB. YOU SAY THE OPEN AT WF/W WAS A SNOOZE -- I GUESS YOU MUST LOVE LEFTY BECAUSE HE SHOULD HAVE WON THE EVENT SAVE FOR SOME OF THE POOREST DECISION-MAKING ONE CAN EVER IMAGINE. THE WEST COURSE VALIDATED ITS POSITION AS A GREAT TEST FOR CHAMPIONSHIP GOLF. GEOFF O's WIN THERE WAS A TEST OF HANGING AROUND AND NOT GIVING UP.

BB WAS SET-UP BY THE USGA -- DON'T BLAME THE COURSE -- BLAME THEM FOR THE ILL-CONSIDERED TEE BOXES AT HOLES LIKE #10. ONE OTHER THING -- THE LINE ON BB PRIOR TO THE '02 EVENT WAS THAT THE PLACE WOULD BE TORCHED BY THE PROS BECAUSE OF E-Z GREENS. BB PROVED TO BE QUITE WELL-PREPARED TO HOST AN EVENT AND TIGER'S WIN THERE, ALONG WITH THE CONTENDERS SUCH AS LEFTY AND SERGIO -- PROVED ITS CALIBER.

The validation of Bethpage was also bolstered when Tiger Woods won there.
Agree, what if Jeff Maggert won? Wasn't it validated when the USGA themselves pumped $ into restoring the course?

PAT, WAKE UP ON THIS FRONT. IF SONE UNKNOWN LIKE STEVE JONES -- REMEMBER HIM WINNING AT OH/S -- THEN BB AND OTHER PUBLIC COURSES WOULD HAVE HAD A HARDER TIME TO MAKE THEIR CASE. TIGER'S GREATNESS WAS SHOWN AT BB AND HIS COMMENTS ON THE COURSE -- BOTH DURING AND AFTERWARDS -- INDICATED WHERE HE SEES THE COURSE AMONG THOSE WHERE HE HAS PLAYED MAJORS.

As for Merion, who cares if it's "strong" enough?? It's going to be a blast to watch today's best players play the same course in similar conditions as Jones, Hogan, and Jack. I don't care if Tiger shoots -10, there is more strategy in 9 holes at Merion then there is at WF and BB combined.

PAT, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT -- YOU ARE CLUELESS ABOUT WHAT EXISTS AT WF/W AND BB. MERION WILL NEED TO DEMONSTRATE THAT IT CAN HANDLE WHAT THE WORLD'S BEST PROVIDE TODAY. I'M PULLING FOR THE CLUB TO RETURN TO THE FOLD BUT WHY DON'T WE WAIT AND SEE BEFORE PROVIDING YOUR CORONATION.

Course quality has nothing to do with it when the USGA sets all courses up essentially the same way. TP last year was refreshing in that it was a course at least no one had seen before as an Open venue. Does the average golfer remember the strategy on any "rota" Open holes in NY? No. But they remember Pebble, they remember ANGC, they remember the 18th at TP, the 18th at Olympic, 18th at Merion, etc... The only thing most golfers know about WF is that Phil should of hit a 3-wood instead of driver.

PAT, COURSE QUALITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PLACES LIKE WF/W AND BB. YOU MUST BE SMOKING SOME HEAVY DUTY WEED IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE THAT. YOU SAY NO ONES REMEMBERS THE STRATEGY OF HOLES AT WF/W AND BB. REALLY? YOU MUST HAVE MISSED BOTH EVENTS BECAUSE THERE ARE A WIDE RANGE OF HOLES WHERE STRATEGIC ELEMENTS COME TO MIND IN A BIG TIME WAY. DO YOU REMEMBER THE SHORT PAR-4 6TH AT WFW OR THE WORLD RENOWN PAR-3 10TH OR THE HISTORY FILLED MEMORIES OF THE CONCLUDING HOLE THERE? OR HOW ABOUT THE QUALITIES OF HOLES LIKE #4 AND #5 AT BB, TO NAME JUST TWO.

PAT, YOUR SELF-IMPOSED IGNORANCE IS BORDERING ON STUPIDITY WITH YOUR INANE COMMENTS ON THE QUALITIES OF WF/W. THE COURSE HAS PROVEN TIME AFTER TIME THE KIND OF QUALITY GOLF NEEDED TO WIN THERE. THE FINAL FIVE HOLES THERE ARE AMONG THE GRANDEST CONCLUSION OF TOP TIER CHAMPIONSHIP GOLF IN ALL OF THE GAME. NO ONE MORE THAN PHIL WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN HIS NAME ON THAT TROPHY AT THAT GOLF COURSE.

As for logistics, there are 100's of courses across the country with the space and close proximity to a major city, why is it so much easier to get to Long Island than it is OFCC?

PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THIS IF YOU CAN -- THE LIRR TAKES YOU TO AND FROM BB IN A VERY E-Z MANNER. DITTO WHEN THE EVENT WAS PLAYED AT SH. I NEVER SAID GETTING TO OFCC WAS A DIFFICULT EQUATION -- BUT THE IDEA THAT NY-BASED US OPEN SITES ARE MORE CHALLENGED BY TRAFFIC CONCERNS IS JUST NOT TRUE.

One last thing -- since 1974 the US Open has been held in the NY/NJ metro area 10 times out of total time frame of 35 years. That's not so much of a monopoly as you would suggest. Yes, the recent times have been quite involved -- starting with the '02 event at BB and concluding with the '09 event there. But the USGA has seen fit to include other locations as well. Franklly Pat, you've just got a major hard-on against the NY metro area.

[Pat Burke]

What the hell does the area's depth of golf courses have anything to do with where they hold the Open? It doesn't matter if the area has a 100 Open worthy courses...the circus that is the US Open should be moved around the United States to courses outside some bull "rota". Why do you and every other New Yorker feel entitled to having the US Open 30% of the time? Does the area hold 30% of the USA's great courses? Does it hold 30% of the population? No.


An unwanted "chime in" from an interested (and somewhat biased) observer.  But, if the NY area does have 100 "Open worthy" courses, maybe that is why it seems to get so many of them

Also, having learned the game in the NY metro area, and then having the ability to play all around the world, I still feel that nothing matches the sheer number of great golf courses as the metro area. 
There are great golf courses all around the country, but no area has the sheer numbers of quality courses. 
Does that mean the US Open should be the NY area all the time?  Of course not, but , maybe the point is that it COULD be, and at continually interesting courses.
There is a reason that there are three hockey teams, two baseball teams, two basketball teams in the the NY area, because it is an enormously large and wealthy market.  Like it or not, marketing will drive a big part of the decision,  Combine that with great golf courses, and Far Hills location, and there is little reason for the US Open to not be in NY very often.

[mike_beene]

I hope the USGA never brings an Open back to Texas.It is just too hot.They wouldn't get the support our good weather tour events get.I would rather jump on a plane to NY than sweat at Southern Hills.New York works great for tennis every year.I would use BB,SH,Oakmont,Pinehurst,PB,Merion,OF and throw the odd course in every decade.Just get rid of WF and Torrey.I would be happy with NY two of every three years if you promised I wouldn't have to see WF.Its split routing and cramped feel just dont fit these other courses.

[Chris Garrett]

If only we lived in an ideal world...

As many have stated throughout, there are a number of factors at play beyond the architectural and/or historical merit of the venue.  Despite the recent rash of opens in the NY Metro area, the USGA has and appears to be continuing to push the Open throughout the country.  We also know that they are pushing for more public/resort venues (public access).  We also know that the USGA wishes their tournament to be a battle with old man par.  If there were any doubts, witness the recent advertisements on NBC branding it as golf's toughest challenge. 

The Open does not need to be on such a tight "rota," if you will.  I interned at both Inverness and Whistling Straits as they were gearing up for the Senior Open and PGA, respectively.  My impression from both places was that they wanted to host these events, however, there were a lot of negatives to doing so. 

With that said, in my ideal world...

1) The USGA would forget about battling par and set up to the courses to allow their architectural brilliance to shine.  If that means a -10 winning score, so be it.

2) The USGA would establish a 14-year "rota."

3) Pebble Beach, Oakmont, Shinnecock Hills, and Pinehurst would take up the permanent spots in that "rota."

4) A mix of the traditional (Merion, Winged Foot, Chicago, NGLA, TCC, Olympic Club, Baltusrol, Inverness, Riviera, Oak Hill, East Lake, Interlachen, Congressional), etc.) and public/modern (Bethpage Black, Pacific Dunes, Sebonack, Whistling Straits, Erin Hills, The Ocean Course, etc.) would fill in the rest.

[PCCraig]

Jeff E:

Can you tell me specifically what you didn't like about BB. I have opined previously that day-to-day set-up of the course doesn't serve the architecture that is present. Fairways are too narrow in many spots with dense rough flanking the holes and the "wild" look that was BB from years ago needs to return.

I too like Sebonack but it will be interesting to see if it makes a move for a US Open -- I can only see that happening if SH somehow decide to opt out -- that would be a major loss to all.

Pat:

Let's start from the beginning again -- shall we?

You were the one opined only media (people like me and others) were supportive of New York metroi area courses having the event so many times at different places. That's not the case and you can tapdance around it all you want -- but the NY metro area has the finest collection (depthwise and at the very top) than any other area in the USA. It stands to reason with such a fine array of first class courses the USGA would want to stage the national championship there so many times.

You make the erroneous conclusion that my support of the area is tied to homerism or "regionalism" -- that's not the case. If places like Montana and Wtoming had such a stellar depth of courses I would tout their usage in no less the same manner. You say you are a fan / advocate of "courses in far flung locations" and if you have bothered to pay attention to my posts I have been a big time advocate of golf in the forgotten mountain time zone area in the USA for all the reasons you outlined.

Pat, do yourself a favor -- take your head out of the sand. The USGA needs the US Open to cover their associatec costs for all that they do -- including growing of the game. The US Open is the main frame why NBC pays the big bucks to televise it. It certainly is not the networkl's interest to air such events as the US Women's Open or Senior Open. The big daddy -- US Open -- is what gives the USGA added muscle to spread their message.

You ask why bother watching the US Open from the same site(s)?

Ask yourself this -- you watch the Masters each year and it comes from the same place year after year -- not every 8-10 years in a spread time frame. You also have The Open Championship contested on the same small grouping of preferred links courses -- The Old Course is featured every five years or thereabouts. Does that lower the stature of either major ? I don't see the US Open being lowered in any way should they visit the top three places I mentioned every 8-10 years in the likes of PB, SH and Oakmont with the second tier being the likes of BB and WF/W thrown into the mix as well.

Since you took the time to list various venues I will respond to each of them (my responses are in bold face simply for differential purposes not intent).

Pebble Beach - Rota -- ABSOLUTELY

Olympic Club - Rota -- ABSOLUTELY

Los Angeles CC - If they wanted -- NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN AS CLUB WOULD HAVE CHANGE IN A NUMBER OF WAYS TO HANDLE A US OPEN

Riviera - Easy -- WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT BUT IT APPEARS TOREY PINES SEEMS TO HAVE THE EDGE FOR THIS LOCATION

Cherry Hills - Short but could be done, very possible in the near future. -- INTERESTING YOU SAY -- BUT DOUBTFUL. COURSE WOULD NEED TO BE STRETCH TO NEARLY 8,000 YARDS TO BE TRULY COMPETITIVE.

Seminole - Short but possible. -- PAT, LET'S BE SERIOUS -- THE ONLY SITE EAST OF THE MISSISSIPII RIVER AND SOUTH OF DC THAT WILL HOST THE US OPEN FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE IS PINEHURST #2. IF YOU RECALL THE PGA WENT TO SOUTH FLORIDA FOR THE '87 PGA CHAMPIONSHIP AND THE RESULTS WERE ABYSMAL.

TPC Sawgrass - Why not, they had the US Am and Players every year.

Old Memorial - Hard enough and good enough.

Ocean Forest - Sure, held the Walker Cup.

East Lake - Easy.

Medinah - If the PGA wasn't there they could

Butler National - Course is good enough.

Chicago Golf - If they wanted it.

OFCC - Sure, see 2003.

Rich Harvest Links - The owner wants one and it's hard enough. Harder than WFW.

Cog Hill - Near Future.

Beverly - Not #1 in Chicago but they could make it work.

Victoria National - Sure

Wolf Run - Sure

Crooked Stick - Possible after this summer. Look for the near future.

Dye Course at French Lick - PGA will be all over this site, USGA would have no problem with makeing this hard enough and to work logistically.

Prarie Dunes - Sure

Congressional - 2011

Baltimore CC - This would be far more interesting than WF or BB -- PAT, PLEASE HELP ME STOP LAUGHING. I HAVE A HUGE AMT OF RESPECT FOR FIVE FARMS -- BUT IT IS NOT WF/W OR BB -- IT'S LIKE COMPARING A GOOD MINOR LEAGUE PITCHER FOR SOMEONE IN THE LINES OF NOLAN RYAN.

TCC Brookline - If the members wanted it again they could. Far more interesting than BB. PAT, AGAIN TCC COULD BARELY HANDLE THE CROWDS AND LOGISTICAL ELEMENTS WHEN THEY HELD THE RYDER CUP. CLUB INITIALLY WANTED THE '13 US OPEN BUT SANER HEADS PREVAILED.

Boston GC - This would be neat and doable. LET'S BE SERIOUS -- A PRIVATE RETREAT CLUB -- WONDERFUL DESIGN BUT NOT FOR A US OPEN.

Salem CC - Easy. HAD A TOUGH TIME TO HOSTING THE SENIOR OPEN AND A PREVIOUS WOMEN'S OPEN -- GOOD LAYOUT FOR SURE BUT AGAIN TCC IS THE BEST BOSTON OPTION AMONG THE OLD TIME LAYOUTS.

Oakland Hills - Near future. CLUB IS ALIGNED MORE RECENTLY WITH THE PGA -- COULD RETURN FOR THE GREATER DETROIT AREA OR A POSSIBLE MOVE WITH INVERNESS.

Arcadia Bluffs - This could be done. IF YOU CAN SEND THE GALLERIES IN BY BOAT THEN FINE. SOLID LAYOUT BUT THE RESORT WILL NEVER HAVE SUCH AN EVENT.

Point O Woods - This would be very neat. Perfect Open course that happnes to be only 1.5 hours from Chicago. How long from NYC to SH? HOSTING A WESTERN AM IS ONE THING -- HOSTING THE BIG TIME PLAYERS OF THE WORLD QUITE ANOTHER. BENTON HARBOR IS ALSO A BIT ON THE LOW SIDE WHEN COMPARED TO SOUTHAMPTON.

Interlachen CC - Easy. PLEASE -- THE PLACE IS WAY TOO SHORT AND WAY TOO SIMPLE A DESIGN FOR THE PREMIER PLAYERS.

Hazeltine National - Easy. CLUB IS MOVING MORE TOWARDS THE PGA THEN THE USGA.

Bellerive - Near Future. TALK ABOUT BORING COURSES.

Sand Hills GC- This would be awesome and doable. A GREAT FANTASY BUT ONE THAT WILL LIVE MORE IN YOUR DREAMS.

Pinehurst #2 - Rota

Pine Needles - Never happen with #2, but possible. YOU ANSWERED YOURSELF -- #2 IS THE ONE FOR THE AREA.

Muirfield Village - Sure. WOULD BE NICE BUT THE USGA, NOT NICKLAUS, WOULD DETERMINE HOW THE COURSE WOULD PLAY. DON'T SEE JACK GIVING UP HIS PREROGATIVES.

The Golf Club - Sure. THE CLUB DOESN'T HAVE INTERNAL EVENTS -- CLEARLY A US OPEN IS NOT WHAT THEY WANT.

Inverness - Easily done see this past weekends NCAA.

Scioto- With re-do it could be done. WONDERFUL LAYOUT BUT WAY TOO SMALL LOGISTICALLY FOR SUCH A BIG TIME EVENT.

Canterbury - See the senior PGA. I LIKE THE COURSE A LOT BUT SEE THE ABOVE ANSWER AS ONE REASON WHY IT WON'T LIKELY HAPPEN.

Firestone - Sure. IF OH ENTERS THE SCENE -- THE ABOVE THREE COURSES YOU MENTIONED HAVE A BETTER CHANCE.

OSU Scarlett - possible with the recent re-do. C'MON -- AGAIN ANOTHER FANTASY PICK.

Southern Hills - see 2001 -- IF YOU WANT A SOUTH CENTRAL SITE -- SH WILL BE THE ONE. PRAIRIE DUNES IS A FASCINATING COURSE BUT IT WOULD NEED TO BE STRETCHED NEEDLESSLY TO BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN WHAT THE WORLD'S BEST CAN DO.

Pumpkin Ridge - See US Am in 90's. AGAIN THE CHAMBERS BAY INSERTION MAKES IT A CANDIDATE TO HANDLE THE MOVEMENT TO THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST. PR WAS LOOKING TO HOST A US OPEN BUT I DON'T SEE EITHER WITCH HOLLOW OR GHOST CREEK BEING VIABLE.

Oakmont - duh.

Merion - duh

Aronimink - Sure. IF THERE'S GOING TO BE A PERMANENT PHILA SITE -- IT'S MERION.

Stonwall - a stretch, but sure. YOU ANSWERED YOURSELF.

Newport CC - Sure. AGAIN, SURLEY YOU JEST. THE PLACE HAS PLENTY OF HISTORY -- BUT IT'S PAST ORIENTED. WORTHY OF US AMATEURS AND WALKER CUPS BUT NOT THE ULTIMATE CHAMPIONSHIP IN AMERICAN GOLF.

TOC Kiawah - If not for the PGA the USGA would have a field day with it. NO DOUBT A STRONG LAYOUT BUT THE PGA OPTED FOR IT -- THE USGA WOULD RATHER BE IN AND AROUND MAJOR METRO AREAS TO DRAW FROM. THE ISOLATION OF KIAWAH WILL BE TESTED WHEN THE PGA CHAMPIONSHIP IS PLAYED THERE.

Long Grove Club - why not. -- SURLEY YOU JEST !!!

The Honors Course - Sure. PAT, SEE MY COMMENTS ON SITES BELOW THE MASON DIXON LINE AND EAST OF THE MISSISSIPPI.

Colonial - Sure - AGAIN, NOT LIKELY WITH THE PGA TOUR THERE AND THE AVERSION TO GOING TO TEXAS BY THE USGA.

Pete Dye GC - very neat. -- WONDERFUL IDEA BUT AGAIN NOT LIKELY BECAUSE OF LOCATION -- OAKMONT TAKES IN THE IMMEDIATE AREA AS THE SURE CANDIDATE.

Whistling Straits - See PGA comment -- PAT, HERB KOHLER HAS MADE HIS BED WITH THE PGA OF AMERICA -- THE USGA WILL LIKELY OPT TO GO WITH ERIN HILLS FOR A FUTURE US OPEN.

Milwaukee CC - very cool. WONDERFUL DESIGN BUT TOTALLY INADEQUATE TO HOST SUCH A BIG TIME EVENT AS THE US OPEN.

Blackwolf Run - See Women's Open. -- WAS USED BY KOHLER TO GET THE USGA'S ATTENTION FOR A FUTURE US OPEN BUT SINCE THAT TIME KOHLER WENT WITH WHAT THE PGA PROVIDED -- A ENCORE PGA CHAMPIONSHIP AND A FUTURE CONNECTION TO OTHER ASSOCIATION EVENTS.

I HAVE ALSO ANSWERED YOUR MOST RECENT REPLIES IN BOLD -- SEE BELOW ...

If Golf is a game of innovation it and its ruiling body should be able to be innovative and not keep returning to the same tired and "logistically" wonderfully NYC area. I'm not sure how a tournament in the NYC or Long Island area can be that much logistically better than any other city in the United States. The hot, crowded, mess that the tri-state area makes up is hardly conductive to visitors. Or do we only hold the Open for residents of NYC and Long Island?

PAT, YOU MUST HAVE A BUG UP YOUR BUTT WHEN IT CONCERNS THE NY METRO AREA. THE WHEREWITHAL TO GET PEOPLE TO AND FROM THE SITES LIKE BB IS FAR EASIER THAN IT IS TO PROVIDE FOR PARKING IN SUCH CRAMPED RECENT PLACES LIKE OAKMONT. YOU BITHCH ABOUT THE 'HOT CROWDED MESS THAT THE TRI-STATE AREA MAKES--UP -- YOU MUST HAVE FORGOTTEN ONE OTHER THING THAT YOU NEVER ADMIT OR REALIZE -- THE SHEER DEPTH AND GREATNESS OF THE COURSES IN THE NY METRO AREA SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. HOSTING THE EVENT EVERY FOUR YEAR AT SH, BB AND WF/W IS NOT THAT MUCH OF A MONOPOLY AND WOULD PERMIT OTHER CLUBS TO BE INTRODUCED BY THE USGA AS CIRCUMSTANCES PROVIDE.

What the hell does the area's depth of golf courses have anything to do with where they hold the Open? It doesn't matter if the area has a 100 Open worthy courses...the circus that is the US Open should be moved around the United States to courses outside some bull "rota". Why do you and every other New Yorker feel entitled to having the US Open 30% of the time? Does the area hold 30% of the USA's great courses? Does it hold 30% of the population? No.

PAT, LET ME TRY AGAIN IN ENGLISH SO YOU CAN FOLLOW THE ARGUMENT. PLEASE TELL ME HOW THE THREE COURSES I MENTIONED ARE DEFICIENT -- IN REGARDS TO THE POPULATION ASPECT -- THE I-95 CORRIDOR HAS, IF MEMORY SERVES, OVER 30% OF THE NATION'S POPULATION -- WHEN FACTORED FROM BOSTON THRU THE DC AREA. IT IS ALSO THE HOME TO THE FINEST COLLECTION OF COURSES IN THE NATION AS WELL -- THE NY NETRO AREA IS BLESSED TO HAVE HAD THE GREATEST COMBINATION OF ARCHITECTS AND LAND SITES FOR THE GOLF COURSES THAT RESIDE HERE. IF YOU TAKE YOUR ARGUMENT SERIOUSLY THEN PLEASE TELL THE R&A THAT LINKS COURSES SHOULD BE BALANCED WITH PARKLAND COURSES IN AND AROUND LONDON.

SH, WF, AND BB are great and all, but are they really that much better to host the Open? SH had to damn near kill the greens to make the course play hard in the modern era, and produced a somewhat boring result in 2004. WF's last Open was a snooze as well, who wants to watch the best players shoot +7? BB is remembered well mostly because Tiger won there and it's a public golf course. No one remembers all the players complaining that it wasn't a fair golf course and too hard for the pros?

BLAME THE USAG FOR BAKING THE GREENS AT SH. THE PLACE WAS FINE AS IS UNTIL OFFICIALS WITHIN THE USGA LOST CONTROL OF THE COURSE. THAT'S WHAT UPSET THE FOLKS AT SH -- QUITE RIGHTLY I MIGHT ADD -- IN DISCUSSING FUTURE RETURNS TO THE CLUB. YOU SAY THE OPEN AT WF/W WAS A SNOOZE -- I GUESS YOU MUST LOVE LEFTY BECAUSE HE SHOULD HAVE WON THE EVENT SAVE FOR SOME OF THE POOREST DECISION-MAKING ONE CAN EVER IMAGINE. THE WEST COURSE VALIDATED ITS POSITION AS A GREAT TEST FOR CHAMPIONSHIP GOLF. GEOFF O's WIN THERE WAS A TEST OF HANGING AROUND AND NOT GIVING UP.

BB WAS SET-UP BY THE USGA -- DON'T BLAME THE COURSE -- BLAME THEM FOR THE ILL-CONSIDERED TEE BOXES AT HOLES LIKE #10. ONE OTHER THING -- THE LINE ON BB PRIOR TO THE '02 EVENT WAS THAT THE PLACE WOULD BE TORCHED BY THE PROS BECAUSE OF E-Z GREENS. BB PROVED TO BE QUITE WELL-PREPARED TO HOST AN EVENT AND TIGER'S WIN THERE, ALONG WITH THE CONTENDERS SUCH AS LEFTY AND SERGIO -- PROVED ITS CALIBER.

The validation of Bethpage was also bolstered when Tiger Woods won there.
Agree, what if Jeff Maggert won? Wasn't it validated when the USGA themselves pumped $ into restoring the course?

PAT, WAKE UP ON THIS FRONT. IF SONE UNKNOWN LIKE STEVE JONES -- REMEMBER HIM WINNING AT OH/S -- THEN BB AND OTHER PUBLIC COURSES WOULD HAVE HAD A HARDER TIME TO MAKE THEIR CASE. TIGER'S GREATNESS WAS SHOWN AT BB AND HIS COMMENTS ON THE COURSE -- BOTH DURING AND AFTERWARDS -- INDICATED WHERE HE SEES THE COURSE AMONG THOSE WHERE HE HAS PLAYED MAJORS.

As for Merion, who cares if it's "strong" enough?? It's going to be a blast to watch today's best players play the same course in similar conditions as Jones, Hogan, and Jack. I don't care if Tiger shoots -10, there is more strategy in 9 holes at Merion then there is at WF and BB combined.

PAT, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT -- YOU ARE CLUELESS ABOUT WHAT EXISTS AT WF/W AND BB. MERION WILL NEED TO DEMONSTRATE THAT IT CAN HANDLE WHAT THE WORLD'S BEST PROVIDE TODAY. I'M PULLING FOR THE CLUB TO RETURN TO THE FOLD BUT WHY DON'T WE WAIT AND SEE BEFORE PROVIDING YOUR CORONATION.

Course quality has nothing to do with it when the USGA sets all courses up essentially the same way. TP last year was refreshing in that it was a course at least no one had seen before as an Open venue. Does the average golfer remember the strategy on any "rota" Open holes in NY? No. But they remember Pebble, they remember ANGC, they remember the 18th at TP, the 18th at Olympic, 18th at Merion, etc... The only thing most golfers know about WF is that Phil should of hit a 3-wood instead of driver.

PAT, COURSE QUALITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PLACES LIKE WF/W AND BB. YOU MUST BE SMOKING SOME HEAVY DUTY WEED IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE THAT. YOU SAY NO ONES REMEMBERS THE STRATEGY OF HOLES AT WF/W AND BB. REALLY? YOU MUST HAVE MISSED BOTH EVENTS BECAUSE THERE ARE A WIDE RANGE OF HOLES WHERE STRATEGIC ELEMENTS COME TO MIND IN A BIG TIME WAY. DO YOU REMEMBER THE SHORT PAR-4 6TH AT WFW OR THE WORLD RENOWN PAR-3 10TH OR THE HISTORY FILLED MEMORIES OF THE CONCLUDING HOLE THERE? OR HOW ABOUT THE QUALITIES OF HOLES LIKE #4 AND #5 AT BB, TO NAME JUST TWO.

PAT, YOUR SELF-IMPOSED IGNORANCE IS BORDERING ON STUPIDITY WITH YOUR INANE COMMENTS ON THE QUALITIES OF WF/W. THE COURSE HAS PROVEN TIME AFTER TIME THE KIND OF QUALITY GOLF NEEDED TO WIN THERE. THE FINAL FIVE HOLES THERE ARE AMONG THE GRANDEST CONCLUSION OF TOP TIER CHAMPIONSHIP GOLF IN ALL OF THE GAME. NO ONE MORE THAN PHIL WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN HIS NAME ON THAT TROPHY AT THAT GOLF COURSE.

As for logistics, there are 100's of courses across the country with the space and close proximity to a major city, why is it so much easier to get to Long Island than it is OFCC?

PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THIS IF YOU CAN -- THE LIRR TAKES YOU TO AND FROM BB IN A VERY E-Z MANNER. DITTO WHEN THE EVENT WAS PLAYED AT SH. I NEVER SAID GETTING TO OFCC WAS A DIFFICULT EQUATION -- BUT THE IDEA THAT NY-BASED US OPEN SITES ARE MORE CHALLENGED BY TRAFFIC CONCERNS IS JUST NOT TRUE.

One last thing -- since 1974 the US Open has been held in the NY/NJ metro area 10 times out of total time frame of 35 years. That's not so much of a monopoly as you would suggest. Yes, the recent times have been quite involved -- starting with the '02 event at BB and concluding with the '09 event there. But the USGA has seen fit to include other locations as well. Franklly Pat, you've just got a major hard-on against the NY metro area.

The bottom line is New York doesn't deserve the Open 30% of the time. Yet you and the rest of New York feel entitled and are greedy enough to think that you should have it even more often.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Get over the bash NY theme song.

The sad reality is that you don't have an argument to refute what I have said.

Again, when confronted with the facts you opt for the quick putdown of the Big Apple.

Like I said since 1974 the US Open has been in the metro NY / NJ area ten (10) times out of 35 Championships. That's not even 1/3 of the events. The USGA has seen fit to try to move the event as needed while still making sure that the continued great sites from yesteryear -- the ones that have kept up that is -- are maintained as host sites.

Pat, stop sipping the kool-aid with such negative comments on the "greed" angle you mentioned. The NY metro area has the quality courses to justify such an involvement with the US Open. If you ever bothered to pay attention I have made it a point on numerous threads to point out when the NY metro area has been overrated -- there are a few courses in the top 100 or in the top state listings that I feel are overrated -- the US Open venues the USGA has chosen from The Empie State are far from that and quite deserving.

[Mike Sweeney]

Matt,

If you had your way, what course in your adopted state of Colorado would hold a US Open? I have never played there but would like to.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I can only infer that a place like Cherry Hills is itching to get back into the front row seat for a big time event -- whether it be a US Open or PGA Championship. Clearly, the work carried out there by Doak was meant to assist with that desire.

Hard to say if there's another CO location in and around Denver that can host a major. Castle Pines did it for years with The International but I don't see that as a likely situation. The Broadmoor did well with the Sr. and Ladies Open's respectively but I don't see the layout as being sufficiently tough enough to tackle what the world's best can deliver.

Any CO site would need to be pushing very close to 8,000 yards to handle the immense power that today's players can bring to the table -- especially with the altitude influences.

Mike, I'd like to see CO get an Open or even PGA but the bar for competition is much higher now -- not only on the coasts but in the middle section of the country. Cherry Hills used to be THE facility for such a special occasion -- I don't see that happening now given the recent additions of places like BB, Whistling Straits, Chambers Bay, etc, etc, etc.

Denver is a great hotbed for quality golf and the people there love the game madly. It might be possible to think of another location -- possibly the greater Santa Fe / Albuquerque area !

[Jay Flemma]

Mike:


Denver is a great hotbed for quality golf and the people there love the game madly. It might be possible to think of another location -- possibly the greater Santa Fe / Albuquerque area !

Amen, brother!  Testify!

[Carl Nichols]

Aside from the desire to bring the U.S. Open to different areas of the country, I think there's merit in having the tournament contested at courses that are stylistically, geologically, and climatologically (?) diverse (and that are championship-caliber, of course).  I realize that WFW and BB have differences, but are they really different enough to warrant playing both every 7-9 years?     

[Matt_Ward]

Carl:

The issues for a US Open site are many. But, try to keep things in perspective -- WF had its last Open in 1984 and went 26 years before having another. Yes, the club did have a PGA Championship in 1997 but the general rule until that PGA was for the season's last major to generally avoid the NYC metro area because of the dominance that the USGA has had there. That has now changed somewhat -- Baltusrol hosted the '05 PGA and will do again in the years ahead.

BB hosted the US Open in '02 and 7 years later has the Open again ... try to keep this in mind -- Pinehurst #2 hosted the event in '99 and had it again in '05 -- that's less of a time spread than what you see with BB.

The cluster of metro NY / NJ area courses in the last few years was more the exception than the rule. No doubt the event was held at BB in '02 -- then SH in '04 -- WF in '06 and BB again '09. That spread will dissipate in the foreseeable future -- although two other NE area courses will host the event shortly -- Congressional in '11 and Merion in '13.

The idea that BB and WF are played every 7-9 years is not true. I simply said at the outset of this thread to seeSH return to the fold soon. I also opined that WF and BB are more of the second tier of key layouts ... PB, SH and Oakmont being among the first three choices.

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:
My post wasn't really directed at you; I was primarily making the point that, IMHO, the U.S. Open should rotate among a diverse set of courses (assuming, as I said, that the venues are otherwise worthy).  Do you agree with that proposition?

[Craig Sweet]

Last time I checked it was called the US Open...not the Greater Long Island Open...

[Matt_Ward]

Carl:

Based on what you said ... consider this ...

You may or may not be aware of this -- but WF/W is truly different in a host of ways from BB. Ditto SH when thrown into the mixture. The three courses have different overall styles, demands and strategic elements. All of the three are diverse from one another. However, there are people who believe the US Open MUST travel to all parts of the USA as some sort of politically correct carnival. I'm not saying you believe that but clearly there is at work an anti-NY metro area sentiment I detect.

You asked in your initial comments, "... but are they really different enough to warrant playing both every 7-9 years?"

The short answer is that both layouts have proven themselves to be worthy of such an event in a wide variety of ways. Most notably, in terms of overall course quality. WF/W is more parksland oriented -- BB is set on a much grander scale -- spread out over a vast amount of acreage.

Let me point out when you state the comrpessed time frame between events at BB and WF/W -- that happened because of unique circumstances / timing. I'm speaking specifically about BB hosting in '02 and WF/W having the event in '06 and coming back to BB in '09.

Try to keep this in mind -- Pinehurst #2 had a shorter cycle between events -- hosting the national championship for the first time in '99 and coming back just siz years later in '05. The metro NY area has a far greater population base from which to draw and given its overall superior top tier layouts is worthy of multiple visits.

After this year's event the NY metro area does not have another scheduled Open on the calendar thus far and the earliest opening will not be until 2016 -- possibly that will be when SH re-enters the scene. I can only hope that is the case.

Craig:

Let me help you out if I can.

How bout we drop the anti-NY fixation? The reality is that the top courses are in the metro NY area. I'll be the first one to point out a number of NY elements are vastly overrated -- but the golf course side -- particuarly among private courses -- is beyond peer in the USA.

The USGA has seen fit -- quite rightly I might add -- to visit the locale as circumstances permit. The amount of visits to the area is not excessive as some have erroneously opined when confronted with factual evidence over a broader array of time as I did previously going back to 1974 and counting forward.

Long Island alone if it was a state to itself would be the finest location for golf in the USA given its small size it packs a considerable punch.

The sad reality is that while recent golf course developments have made their way into different parts of the USA -- especially the mountain time zone as I have said many times previously -- the cache and qualities of the selected courses in the metro NY/NJ area in tandem with the sheer size and proximity to immense populations has been a prime reason for a return time after time after time.

Those who claim bias are barking up the wrong tree -- the more likely issue is the envy others have in not being on such a short list.

I'll be sure to send you an "I love NY" baseball cap !

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

But you don't need immense populations to host a successful US Open.  Even SLC could host a US Open because between locals and people traveling from out of town, it would easily be a sell-out.  So i'm not buying that a US Open needs to be in an area with a massive population close by.

If the USGA was founded on the West Coast, the opposite would occur.  I'm not blaming the USGA per se, just saying that regional bias is built into the system and its very obvious to those of us who aren't NY homers.

[PCCraig]

Carl:

Based on what you said ... consider this ...

You may or may not be aware of this -- but WF/W is truly different in a host of ways from BB. Ditto SH when thrown into the mixture. The three courses have different overall styles, demands and strategic elements. All of the three are diverse from one another. However, there are people who believe the US Open MUST travel to all parts of the USA as some sort of politically correct carnival. I'm not saying you believe that but clearly there is at work an anti-NY metro area sentiment I detect.

You asked in your initial comments, "... but are they really different enough to warrant playing both every 7-9 years?"

The short answer is that both layouts have proven themselves to be worthy of such an event in a wide variety of ways. Most notably, in terms of overall course quality. WF/W is more parksland oriented -- BB is set on a much grander scale -- spread out over a vast amount of acreage.

HUH?!?! You say "but WF/W is truly different in a host of ways from BB" and then the only reason you give is that "WF/W is more parksland oriented -- BB is set on a much grander scale." You can't say they are different because of many different ways and then say that they are similar, but on a "grander" scale. In the end there is no good reason to keep both BB and WFW in the USGA "rota" at the same time. 

Let me point out when you state the comrpessed time frame between events at BB and WF/W -- that happened because of unique circumstances / timing. I'm speaking specifically about BB hosting in '02 and WF/W having the event in '06 and coming back to BB in '09.

Far too often. BB is great, but they were just there! As a point to the USGA as a whole, they need to move around a little bit more before coming back to the tired and true venues. Even if the course has become an investment for the USGA through their renovation donation.

Try to keep this in mind -- Pinehurst #2 had a shorter cycle between events -- hosting the national championship for the first time in '99 and coming back just siz years later in '05. The metro NY area has a far greater population base from which to draw and given its overall superior top tier layouts is worthy of multiple visits.

Pinehurst is at least a different style of golf course than the boring 7500 yard monster parkland layouts that the USGA frequents in the Northeast. As for your comment on multiple visits, that's fine, but spread them out a little bit! 3 times in 10 years is just dumb, 3 times in 20 years is more like it.

After this year's event the NY metro area does not have another scheduled Open on the calendar thus far and the earliest opening will not be until 2016 -- possibly that will be when SH re-enters the scene. I can only hope that is the case.

Now, I honestly hope that the US Open doesn't return to NY until 2020...and hopefully at Sebonack if at any of them.

Craig:

Let me help you out if I can.

How bout we drop the anti-NY fixation? The reality is that the top courses are in the metro NY area. I'll be the first one to point out a number of NY elements are vastly overrated -- but the golf course side -- particuarly among private courses -- is beyond peer in the USA.

Matt- you make statements that are so bold and yet you never actually back them up with any sort of facts or analysis, you just assume that everyone should agree with you.

The USGA has seen fit -- quite rightly I might add -- to visit the locale as circumstances permit. The amount of visits to the area is not excessive as some have erroneously opined when confronted with factual evidence over a broader array of time as I did previously going back to 1974 and counting forward.

Long Island alone if it was a state to itself would be the finest location for golf in the USA given its small size it packs a considerable punch.

When is Deepdale or NGLA planning hosting the US Open?...They're not?...then the depth of courses really doesn't matter when the discussion of where to bring the US Open comes up.

The sad reality is that while recent golf course developments have made their way into different parts of the USA -- especially the mountain time zone as I have said many times previously -- the cache and qualities of the selected courses in the metro NY/NJ area in tandem with the sheer size and proximity to immense populations has been a prime reason for a return time after time after time.

As Kalen says above...population means nothing. Look at Pinehurst. Middle of nowhere and it sells out the Open too. Please state data that population size has anything to do with the success of a US Open.

Those who claim bias are barking up the wrong tree -- the more likely issue is the envy others have in not being on such a short list.

Believe me, no envy here. If nothing else, after this discussion I have greater GCA respect for the PGA of America, because at least they are willing to think outside the box for championship locations.

I'll be sure to send you an "I love NY" baseball cap !

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Having a major metro area is a factor for staging a US Open. I'm not suggesting a place like SLC could not have an Open because the metro area there is clearly large enough. My point was that the NYC-meto area has the dual benefits of being able to tap into 20 million people within a 50-mile radius of Times Square (more people when you factor the entire length of LI) and you have such a wealth of superior courses capable in hosting the event.

Kalen, being sure to sell out the event is helped immensely with a major metro area to tap into.

You also mention "if" the USGA were founded on the west coast. Guess what -- it's wonderful to play the "what if" scenarios -- unfortunately we live in a what is reality. The USGA's location is only a very small part of the equation. The northeast area was blessed in being able to tap into the brains of some of the finest architects during the early part of the 20th century when they came across the Atlantic and the game of golf was just beginning to grow. The quality land was also there and from that has come forward a series of outstanding courses that remain the icons of the game now.

I am a big time fan of your neck of the woods and wish it would receive more attention and acclaim -- but that will happen evetually. Hopefully, the mountain time zone will stage another US Open beyond its past exclusive connection to the greater Denver area.

If you have ever remotely bothered to read my posts -- I am far from a homer. I have championed the mountain time zone more times than anyone other than those who live there. I have also held up those NY metro area layouts that I have seen as being overrated. However, let's be fair -- there are those who see anything associated with NY as being nothing more than a loud noise with little substance behind it. I have no idea if you have played any of the courses that have been mentioned on this thread -- I have -- many times over. The anti-NY sentiment is tied to the envy that such an area has been used time after time after time. It's so e-z to turn things around and make me the so-called "homer." My comments on courses has nothing to do with where I live and what has happened previously. I have stated my take on what I see as an unnecessary morphing of BB into some sort of steroid-distance oriented layout. Unfortunately, some people on this site can only see what their minds force them to believe. A pity.


Pat:

Let me help sort out your confusion.

WF is a bonafide parksland layout. Fortunately, the club sought to eliminate plenty of trees prior to the '06 US Open and the results were clearly noticeable. WF is also much more compact and it features some of the most well-defended and steep sloped greens one can imagine. BB, on the other hand, is more grand in it overall scale. Spread out and although it has trees they serve as nothing more than on the periphery -- away from much of the play in nearly all cases. The green sites at BB are also much me tame while the bunkers there are nothing less than cavernous -- see the 5th, 7th, and 17th, as three quick examples. If anyone sees the two (2) layouts as being copies of each other -- they certainly need to be refitted for some new eyeglasses.

You say the Open was just there at BB -- how bout mentioning the shorter interval time for Pinehurst #2 ? Did you develop amnesia on that front ? Try to keep this in mind -- BB became the focal point after 9/11 and it also served to drum up he new desire for the USGA to move the game along the lines of public course players. More than any other facility -- save for Van Cordlandt Park which could never stage a US Open -- the five-course Bethpage layout has shown what public golf courses can be about. The '02 event was a major success and set the stage for a return in seven years. Simple as that.

If you think that BB and WF/W are the same type of courses -- then you really don't know the courses in question. It's just that simple. I started this thread as a calll to get SH back into the rota of layouts used. The overall size of the NY/ NJ metro area and the fact that several outstanding and uniquely different courses are present allows for such a usage as need be. Try to remember, if you can, what I said about the hosting role since the '74 US Open at WF/W. When you add up the total US Opens playd since then and the amount of times visited -- I don't see that as overkill.

I have to laugh out loud -- if you wish to keep SH on the sidelines through 2020. SH, along with PB and Oakmont, are the three finest US Open layouts we have here in America and have proven themselves so many times over. Losing SH would be a major letdown in so many ways.

Pat, check out what Doak says about the NY metro area in Confidential Guide. The proof is there - provided your mind is able to accpt that what I said is backed up by a range of people.

Your inane idea that a place like Deepdale or NGLA would host an Open is just silly. Both are fine clubs -- especially NGLA -- but the host role requires a wearing of many different hats. The top tier of NY/NJ metro area clubs is THAT good and goes beyond the E-Z tear down role you have assumed.

Be real about population factors -- if one were to take your inane thought to its fullest conclusion -- then the US Open would be held at isolated places like Bandon Dunes, Sand Hills, and the like. That is not going to happen -- having a major metro area -- the Pinehurst example being the lone major exception -- proves that. One other thing Pinehurst is only 60 plus miles from the state capital so it's not totally remote.

The PGA of America realized after the '97 PGA Championship that securing a base of operations in the metro NY/NJ area was a big time plus for them (as well as the $$ and fanfare). Winged Foot realized getting back into the scene for majors was not going to happen initially with the USGA after the '84 event. It was a smart marriage between WF and the PGA to form a partnerhip which culminated in the Mamaroneck club hosting the event in '97. From that event the PGA realized that cotninuing to avoid the NY/NJ metro area was not a smart business calculation. When Baltusrol got pushed out of the USGA rota for Opens -- the PGA and the Springfield, NJ-based club did a similar move with the club entertaining a most enjoyable '05 PGA Championship. The 2016 PGA is planned to return there.

I'll still send you the "I love NY" baseball cap. Wear it proudly !

[Steve_ Shaffer]

What's the problem here? The US Open will be held at Chambers Bay in Tacoma of all places in 2015.   The trend is to some "new" public courses in the rota-seeTorrey Pines last year and perhaps Erin Hills and/or Cog Hill. The privates will always be there- Oakmont, Winged Foot,Olympic,Congressional and perhaps SH or even a return visit to Olympia Fields or Cherry Hills. Pebble Beach and Pinehurst 2 are in the rota. There must be some of the same old faces for the sake of tradition- see one last visit? to Merion in 2013. Perhaps in 2050 more newer courses in other locales will be added to the rota.Be patient.

[PCCraig]

Pat:

Let me help sort out your confusion.

Ok Matt let's try this again.


WF is a bonafide parksland layout. Fortunately, the club sought to eliminate plenty of trees prior to the '06 US Open and the results were clearly noticeable. WF is also much more compact and it features some of the most well-defended and steep sloped greens one can imagine. BB, on the other hand, is more grand in it overall scale. Spread out and although it has trees they serve as nothing more than on the periphery -- away from much of the play in nearly all cases. The green sites at BB are also much me tame while the bunkers there are nothing less than cavernous -- see the 5th, 7th, and 17th, as three quick examples. If anyone sees the two (2) layouts as being copies of each other -- they certainly need to be refitted for some new eyeglasses.

Matt- I never claimed that they were the same course. Only that they are too similar to be considered alternates in some sort of short term rota. I agree that SH is far good enough to be seen every ten years or so, but when you throw in WF and BB in addition every decade it becomes a NY love fest. I'm not saying the courses arn't logistically sound or good enough to host, but from a spectator and GCA buff there are far too many very good to great golf courses that could and should host before return trip after return trip to these same NYC layouts.

You say the Open was just there at BB -- how bout mentioning the shorter interval time for Pinehurst #2 ? Did you develop amnesia on that front ? Try to keep this in mind -- BB became the focal point after 9/11 and it also served to drum up he new desire for the USGA to move the game along the lines of public course players. More than any other facility -- save for Van Cordlandt Park which could never stage a US Open -- the five-course Bethpage layout has shown what public golf courses can be about. The '02 event was a major success and set the stage for a return in seven years. Simple as that.

I agree that Bethpage was a success, of course its great to see a true muni host the Open. That's cool. However when the choice for a "metro" NYC US Open comes down to WF and BB...BB should be picked because of the USGA's investment and the public aspect of the deal...NOT both. Hopefully WF goes into another 20+ year hybernation as a host, because as a tournament host they are clearly the weakest link of the three venues...again, as a Championship tournament host.

I will say this about BB...what makes BB any more of a public golf course than Cog Hill, Erin Hills, or Chambers Bay? All can be played by a public golfer for a fee. Granted that BB is a muni and charges somewhat small fees, but if being public is such a selling point for BB, then why is the NYC's public golfers $ and support any more important than the other club's patrons?

If you think that BB and WF/W are the same type of courses -- then you really don't know the courses in question. It's just that simple. I started this thread as a calll to get SH back into the rota of layouts used. The overall size of the NY/ NJ metro area and the fact that several outstanding and uniquely different courses are present allows for such a usage as need be. Try to remember, if you can, what I said about the hosting role since the '74 US Open at WF/W. When you add up the total US Opens playd since then and the amount of times visited -- I don't see that as overkill.

Try to tell someone like Kalen living in SLC that it isn't overkill. Or Chicago. Or Texas. Or Arizona. Or Oregon. Or New England. You sound like the millionaire telling a homeless guy that $100 really isn't all that much.

And AGAIN, depth of the area's golf courses should mean nothing other than they have more options to move the tournament when it's the areas turn again.



I have to laugh out loud -- if you wish to keep SH on the sidelines through 2020. SH, along with PB and Oakmont, are the three finest US Open layouts we have here in America and have proven themselves so many times over. Losing SH would be a major letdown in so many ways.

I think PB and Oakmont should be seen every decade. If there are ever two courses that should be in the rota, it is PB and Oakmont. SH is great, but the Open is in NYC this year (it's 2009 btw) and doesn't need to go back for another 10 years.

Pat, check out what Doak says about the NY metro area in Confidential Guide. The proof is there - provided your mind is able to accpt that what I said is backed up by a range of people.

Again, depth has nothing to do with it.

Your inane idea that a place like Deepdale or NGLA would host an Open is just silly. Both are fine clubs -- especially NGLA -- but the host role requires a wearing of many different hats. The top tier of NY/NJ metro area clubs is THAT good and goes beyond the E-Z tear down role you have assumed.

Once again Matt, area course depth has nothing to do with why one (BB, WF, and SH) should be seen every 3 years.

Be real about population factors -- if one were to take your inane thought to its fullest conclusion -- then the US Open would be held at isolated places like Bandon Dunes, Sand Hills, and the like. That is not going to happen -- having a major metro area -- the Pinehurst example being the lone major exception -- proves that. One other thing Pinehurst is only 60 plus miles from the state capital so it's not totally remote.

The problem with your arguement is that the "lone exception" worked. And would work again, and does work. People will travel to see the best players play interesting golf courses in Majors. This will be seen again when Erin Hills in WI gets an Open before SH, WF, or BB.

The PGA of America realized after the '97 PGA Championship that securing a base of operations in the metro NY/NJ area was a big time plus for them (as well as the $$ and fanfare). Winged Foot realized getting back into the scene for majors was not going to happen initially with the USGA after the '84 event. It was a smart marriage between WF and the PGA to form a partnerhip which culminated in the Mamaroneck club hosting the event in '97. From that event the PGA realized that cotninuing to avoid the NY/NJ metro area was not a smart business calculation. When Baltusrol got pushed out of the USGA rota for Opens -- the PGA and the Springfield, NJ-based club did a similar move with the club entertaining a most enjoyable '05 PGA Championship. The 2016 PGA is planned to return there.

Again you make statements that are wrong. Baltusrol only got the PGA after TCC decided they didn't want the 2005 PGA after their bad experience with the Ryder Cup, deciding in 2003 that they would rather take a pass with Baltusrol being the only club that would take it on short notice. Again, why was that tournament such a success compared to other Majors? Because it was outside a major city and sold out? That Phil won? Or just because it was in your home state?

I'll still send you the "I love NY" baseball cap. Wear it proudly !

I'll be sure to send you a real pizza.