[mike_malone]

  I have absolutely no evidence as to Flynn's involvement on #10 at Merion BUT within a few years he was building some mighty fine golf courses on his own,many that rival Merion. So, I assume he had to get his feet wet sometime.

[JESII]

Back to #10...

How much do you think the conditioning of the off-fairway areas affects the playability of the hole (I think a LOT).  And, would the Wilson (and Flynn) have considered thick fescues in their design?

Dan,

I think it makes the hole today, because the green is pretty big and bland when compared to #12 at PV, but unkempt off areas make it very difficult to hit...which translates to a more difficult tee shot.

[Dan Herrmann]

I agree - I've taken an "X" on #10, just because I foolishly ended up in the fescue.  I too think it makes the hole.

I was wondering if the designer had the left-side "danger" in mind then the hole was built.

[JESII]

Think about left of #12 at PV, #4 at HVCC...totally dead in those areas.

I'm not sure what that says about a Cape Hole, or Flynn template holes...

[PThomas]

First, he was fully aware that when the Macdonald committee laid out the holes at NGLA they took THREE MONTHS to route the holes and another TWO MONTHS to create topographical models, all while onsite before construction even began.

Mac was at Merion ONE DAY in June 1910 and advised them on agronomics and we have the letter that proves that.

Mac did not return to the property again for 10 months, and then again for ONE DAY to help the committee select the best of their 5 plans that THEY had coincidentally spent at least the last THREE MONTHS working on.

i cant believe i am actually stepping into this Merion discusssion, as i am one of the many i think who has a hard time following the zillion posts on it...but if the above is true and that is the extent of CBMs involvement, wouldnt he be considered an "advisor"?  Is this the crux of the matter?

[DMoriarty]

Dan,

I wonder the same thing, but for different reasons.   It seems that much of the strategic merit of this type of hole would get stripped away with if the fairways are maintained narrowly and high rough close to the edge, especially on the inside of the cape turn.

I notice you include Flynn in parenthesis.  Why?  Do you know something I don't?

__________________________________

Mike_Malone

  I have absolutely no evidence as to Flynn's involvement on #10 at Merion BUT within a few years he was building some mighty fine golf courses on his own,many that rival Merion. So, I assume he had to get his feet wet sometime.

Tom Doak worked under Pete Dye at PGA West, and I hear he has designed some decent courses later.   Do you think we should change the attribution at PGA West because Tom Doak got his "feet wet" there?
________________________________________

Mike Cirba,


First you insult and degrade HJ Whigham, and now you completely misrepresent what he wrote?   Typical of your usual pattern throughout all these discussions.  

HJW wrote about CBM 1938, but it is preposterous to read his description as saying anything about the state of the course in 1938.  He was describing CBM's contribution to golf course design in America, and listed some courses CBM and/or Raynor designed.   Nothing about the current state of any of the courses listed.

Do we think Whigham might have been ill himself by then?

You don't want to believe what he wrote, so you just figure he must have been mentally impared? Pathetic.  I have no reason to believe he was ill "by then" and have no reason to believe that he was suffering from an illness that would impair his mental abilities later, either.

It is a joke the way you guys just throw out the words of this man.   No call for it.  No reason for it.  Just your inability to face the facts and try and understand them.  

_________________

Paul Thomas,

There was much more to CBM's involvement than that.  Mike just misrepresents what we know to suit him, and it is impossible to correct all his misrepresentations.

[Dan Herrmann]

David,
In the words of my hero, Sgt. Schultz (Hogan's Heroes) "I know NOTHING!" 

Honestly, my ancient golf library consists of one copy of The Badminton Library Book of Golf (1911 Edition), Hutchinson.  My mom bought it at a flea market in Buffalo for $5.

I'm just an interested observer that think Flynn's work is a joy to play.

[Michael Blake]

Does Flynn get enough credit for Merion?
I remember being shown a number of his original drawings of holes that are in a couple of the rooms during my one visit.

Really hope Wayne and Tom are having some luck getting their book published.  Any news?

[Dan Herrmann]

Michael,
Good question.  I think one of the under-discussed questions is a comparison of Merion E & W..    How much Wilson is in W and how much Flynn is in E.

[mike_malone]

 David,

  How long was it after Doak worked at PGA West that he designied a great course on his own?  I have no idea. I wasn't recommending that Flynn be given credit. I think I said I had "absolutely no evidence". Is that too vague?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave,

Do we think Whigham might have been ill himself by then?

NO

How could he possibly call the Merion course as it was in 1938 a M&W course?

Mike,

Stop making dumb statements, intentional or unintended..
HW never called the "1938" course a CBM course, and you know it.

Even if your theory is correct and they did the original routing, that would be like Tommy Fazio crediting Stonewall to Tom Fazio in some distant future upon the latter's demise.  Actually, it would be worse than that because large parts of Merion were completely re-routed by then.

Your analogy is flawed

Whigham HAD to know better.

How do you know, where you there ?
Whigham was, as David has pointed out, a well respected figure.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley,
If I had to guess, I would give it to Hugh Wilson.  He helped complete holes 12-15 at Pine Valley and if you look at the 12th hole at Pine Valley,
it's almost the same as Merion's 10th. 

Rick,

The original 10th at Merion bears NO resemblance to the 12th at PV.


Regardless, this is an awesome hole and a great example of a short par 4

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

HJW wrote about CBM 1938, but it is preposterous to read his description as saying anything about the state of the course in 1938.  He was describing CBM's contribution to golf course design in America, and listed some courses CBM and/or Raynor designed.   Nothing about the current state of any of the courses listed.

David,

The year was 1938.

Merion at that point had almost half the original holes wholly or partially rerouted, 5 entire holes changed, entire internal hole strategies created, new greens designed and built, and over 100 bunkers added since the course originally opened 26 years prior.

It had hosted the 1916 US Amateur, the 1924 US Amateur, and the 1930 US Am and 1934 US Open.

It was at that time probably the most famous course in America, given its greatness and Bobby Jones heroics.

CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham had spent a sum total of TWO DAYS out of EIGHT HUNDRED FIFTY TWO DAYS onsite at Merion, the first day to come and view the property Merion was considering buying and he followed with a one page feasibility report that was mostly filled with agronomic suggestions, and then returned ten months later to help the Merion Committee pick the best of five golf course plans they had created.

They never returned.

And yet, at this time...after the death of Hugh Wilson, and almost everyone associated with the opening of the course back in 1912, and now the death of his beloved father in law, HJ Whigham had the audacity to state;

"The Macdonald-Raynor courses became famous all over America. Among the most famous are Piping Rock, the Merion Cricket Club at Philadelphia, the Country Club of Saint Louis, two beautiful courses at White Sulphur, the Lido (literally poured out of the lagoon), and that equally amazing Yale course at New Haven, which was hewn out of rock and forest at the expense of some seven hundred thousand dollars. "


Don't tell us he wasn't talking about the course in the present tense.   He stated that it is "AMONG THE MOST FAMOUS".

He wasn't talking about the advice they gave in 1912, or the original course as it was laid out.

He was resume-padding and epitaph-enhancing.

And he knew it.

Sorry, but that's the only explanation consistent with the facts.

[Rick Sides]

Patrick,
Do you know when the modern day 10th was built or who redesigned it? I just know that if you look at the 10th today, it's very similar to today's 12th hole at PIne Valley.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
Do you know when the modern day 10th was built or who redesigned it?

I just know that if you look at the 10th today, it's very similar to today's 12th hole at PIne Valley.

Rick,  I think that's almost universally accepted.

But, the original 10th bears NO resemblence to the current 10th or 12th at PV

[Kalen Braley]

I guess this chat board will not be complete until its entirely overrun by Merion threads...    

[Bradley Anderson]

ip

Bradley,

I applaud your effort to approach the attribution argument in an original fashion, the problem with this approach is that your definition needs to be far more specific.

You asked, "But to whom do we attribute the 10th at Merion?"

WHICH 10th hole? The one that is original to the day the course opened? The one after renovations to the course for the 1916 Open? The one faced by Bobby JOnes or the one by Jack Nicklaus?

What changes took place to the hole between opening day and Jack Nicklaus' failure? Who was responsible for those changes? Was that person the same one who created the original?

The answers to these questions are central to yours of, "But to whom do we attribute the 10th at Merion?"

It is also why the approach may be doomed to failure as it will do nothing but refresh old arguments...

Philip,

I really started this thread, sincerely not knowing to whom the attributes of the tenth hole, that we see today, may be attributed.

Who designed the hole placement in the overall route?

Who cleared the trees to place that tee where it is? And who decided not to clear those trees that guard the left side of the chute?

Who oriented the green diagonally to the tee, with the severe bunkering in front and in back?

These are just a few examples of what I am interested in. I think that when we focus on these kinds of details, hole by hole, we will have a clearer picture of who to attribute the greatness of Merion to. But maybe not.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

You are a classy guy.  A reputable expert like H.J. Whigham writes something you don't like so you resort to calling him a liar then twist his statement beyond recognition to support your insult.  Despicable.  He wrote about what CBM did at Merion in 1910-11.  There is no other way to read it. 

I try to tell myself that you are not as pathetic and boorish as TEPaul and Wayne when it comes to disrespecting M&W and manipulating their record, but your insulting and baseless dismissal of H.J. Whigham tells a different story. 
______________________________

Bradley. 

I don't think the current back tee existed when they created the new hole.   I've been told there is evidence it did exist, but I have my doubts as to the reliability of the source.   From the forward tees, I don't think the trees would have been as in play, do you? 

Wouldn't you agree that Piper and Oakley and those at the Green Section knew Wilson well and were very familiar with what he did at Merion? They credit Wilson with creating the the cape version of the 10th.  Do you have any reason to doubt them? 

Also, Bradley, I think the fairways were maintained quite a bit wider when the hole was first created.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Did Whigham mention anything at all about 1910-11?   Did he say anything like, Macdonald helped design the original course way back when...

No, he said, "among the most famous (in 1938 present) are...Merion Cricket Club" knowing full well that the course at Merion was very little in 1938 like the course that opened in 1912, and that neither he nor Macdonald even saw Merion during or after construction.

His statement was false under any reasonable standard, he wasn't talking about the past, he was talking about it's present fame which he attributed to Macdonald, and he knew it was false.

There is no other way to interpret it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Did Whigham mention anything at all about 1910-11?   Did he say anything like, Macdonald helped design the original course way back when...

No, he said, "among the most famous (in 1938 present) are...Merion Cricket Club" knowing full well that the course at Merion was very little in 1938 like the course that opened in 1912, and that neither he nor Macdonald even saw Merion during or after construction.

Mike,

You're damaging your position and reinforcing David's with your above comment.

Is Oakland Hills a Donald Ross golf course, or should it be deemed an RTJ course due to its present configuration and design ?

His statement was false under any reasonable standard, he wasn't talking about the past, he was talking about it's present fame, and he knew it was false.

Mike,

That's absurd, and if you don't know it's absurd then you've lost all abilities to think clearly on this subject.

There is no other way to interpret it.

Mike, you've lost it.
But, at least that implies that you once had it. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Donald Ross designed Oakland Hills.

CB Macdonald didn't design Merion.

Slight difference.   


Bradley,

Here's a picture of the 10th from the tee the month the course opened.

Those two tall trees that frame the teeing grounds are amazingly still there today.

It does look like there is some foreground clearing so I'm not sure if the players (who I believe are Howard Perrin and Hugh Willoughby) are playing all the way back or not.   

In any case, it's a splendid pic.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Did Whigham mention anything at all about 1910-11?   Did he say anything like, Macdonald helped design the original course way back when...

No, he said, "among the most famous (in 1938 present) are...Merion Cricket Club" knowing full well that the course at Merion was very little in 1938 like the course that opened in 1912, and that neither he nor Macdonald even saw Merion during or after construction.

His statement was false under any reasonable standard, he wasn't talking about the past, he was talking about it's present fame which he attributed to Macdonald, and he knew it was false.

There is no other way to interpret it.

_______________________________
Mike.  He was describing what CBM had accomplished in his life.   He wasn't concerned with the current state of Merion. 

Your position displays your inability to deal honestly with the source material, and your willingness to say just about anything to support your point.   Your posts on this issue are both insulting and pathetic.

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