[Bradley Anderson]

The tenth hole at Merion has been the stage of some of golf's greatest dramas. Bobby Jones double-bogeyed the 10th on his way to winning the grand slam; some say Jack would have won the 1971 U.S. Open had he not bogeyed 10 twice around the course.

Who could argue that number 10 is one the greatest short par fours in all of golf? In an age where pushing the distance of par fours to 500 yards is not beyond the norm, here we have a 310 yard hole that has stymied the greatest players ever to play the game.

But to whom do we attribute the 10th at Merion?

Is it a CBM hole, a Wilson hole, or a Flynn hole?

Honestly I don't know the genesis of this great hole. But I think that a lot of you do, and if we focus on Merion hole by hole, we may be able to settle this dispute about who to attribute it's greatness to.

After number 10, someone may start a new thread about another hole.

[Rick Sides]

Bradley,
If I had to guess, I would give it to Hugh Wilson.  He helped complete holes 12-15 at Pine Valley and if you look at the 12th hole at Pine Valley,
it's almost the same as Merion's 10th.  Regardless, this is an awesome hole and a great example of a short par 4

[Dan Herrmann]

Rick,  Great observation.

[Mike_Cirba]

Although I've seen two news articles from 1924 that give overall credit to Hugh Wilson, I believe at the point the 10th was created, I think that Hugh WIlson and William Flynn were really working very closely in tandem, so co-attribution is appropriate in my mind for 10, 11, 12, & 13.

[Rick Sides]

Mike,
I think you are right. Wilson and Flynn also both worked on Pine Valley which would make sense.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bradley,

I applaud your effort to approach the attribution argument in an original fashion, the problem with this approach is that your definition needs to be far more specific.

You asked, "But to whom do we attribute the 10th at Merion?"

WHICH 10th hole? The one that is original to the day the course opened? The one after renovations to the course for the 1916 Open? The one faced by Bobby JOnes or the one by Jack Nicklaus?

What changes took place to the hole between opening day and Jack Nicklaus' failure? Who was responsible for those changes? Was that person the same one who created the original?

The answers to these questions are central to yours of, "But to whom do we attribute the 10th at Merion?"

It is also why the approach may be doomed to failure as it will do nothing but refresh old arguments...

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

I believe Bradley is simply talking about today's 10th hole, created by 1924. 

Bobby Jones played it in 1924 and 1930.

This one is a piece of cake. 

[DMoriarty]

Bobby Jones played it in 1916 as well, when it was still an Alps hole. 

Every contemporary account I have ever seen of the remodel in 1923-24 places the credit squarely with Hugh Wilson.  For example, after Wilson's untimely death, a remembrance in the Green Section Bulletin noted that "The mature results of his studies in golf architecture are embodied in the East Course at Merion, which was remodeled under his direction in 1923-1924.". 


I don't recall ever seeing a contemporary account that credits Flynn with the redesign work at all.  Surely he was involved in carrying out Wilson's "direction" but I have never understood how this could possibly be construed as establishing design credit for Flynn.

If those who were there credited Wilson, then why is it even a discussion?   

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

I must disagree with my learned Philly Phriend! You stated that, "I believe Bradley is simply talking about today's 10th hole, created by 1924..." but that is not the interpretation that I took away from his post and question. Notre what he said, "Honestly I don't know the genesis of this great hole. But I think that a lot of you do, and if we focus on Merion hole by hole, we may be able to settle this dispute about who to attribute it's greatness to... After number 10, someone may start a new thread about another hole."

It seems to me that he is attempting to address the origin ("genesis") issue and not the question of Flynn vs. Wilson...

It was for that reason that I asked him to clarify...

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh...gotcha, Phil.

In that case, I have a lunch date.   Gotta run!! 

[JESII]

If those who were there credited Wilson, then why is it even a discussion?   

Now there's a question sure to raise some eyebrows...

[DMoriarty]

If those who were there credited Wilson, then why is it even a discussion?   

Now there's a question sure to raise some eyebrows...

That was the intent.   But it is a serious observation.  All those there credit M&W as among those who planned the original layout of Merion, so I don't understand why there is a discussion about that either.

[JESII]

David,

All those who were there credit Hugh Wilson for being the man...and while you have raised some interesting points there is absolutely no evidence that CBM did more than what he has always been credited with...good advice.

[DMoriarty]

David,

All those who were there credit Hugh Wilson for being the man...and while you have raised some interesting points there is absolutely no evidence that CBM did more than what he has always been credited with...good advice.

All those who were there?  Who do you mean?  Because H.J. Whigham was there, wasn't he?

[JESII]

What exactly did HJ Whigham say? And when?

[DMoriarty]

What exactly did HJ Whigham say? And when?

He said Merion was a CBM course, in 1938. 

[JESII]

What do you think he meant by "a CBM course"?

[DMoriarty]

What do you think he meant by "a CBM course"?

Jim,  I am not sure we should be taking Bryan's thread on this tangent.    A "CBM course" is my description.   Whigham includes Merion in partial list of notable courses that either CBM, Raynor, or both had designed.    So I think that means that H.J. Whigham thinks that CBM designed Merion.     I have no reason to doubt him.   

But again, perhaps we should discuss this in a different thread or at a different time.   

This thread is about Merion's "cape hole" and while the "cape hole" was a concept popularized by CBM, and it is interesting that Wilson replaced a hole based on CBM's alps concept with a hole based on CBM's cape concept,  I have no reason to believe CBM had anything to do with designing that particular hole.   

As far as I know, that was Wilson's doing.   

I am curious as to what evidence is out there indicating that Flynn had any creative input.     Is it based on drawings in Flynn's hand?   Surely George Thomas, CBM, and others prove that you don't have to draft plans to design holes.   

[Mike_Cirba]

You know...

The irony is that when Whigham said this he knew he was lying through his teeth.

First, he was fully aware that when the Macdonald committee laid out the holes at NGLA they took THREE MONTHS to route the holes and another TWO MONTHS to create topographical models, all while onsite before construction even began.

Mac was at Merion ONE DAY in June 1910 and advised them on agronomics and we have the letter that proves that.

Mac did not return to the property again for 10 months, and then again for ONE DAY to help the committee select the best of their 5 plans that THEY had coincidentally spent at least the last THREE MONTHS working on.

Whigham also knew by the late 30s that the Merion course in play at that time was almost night and day from the course opened in 1912, so many changes had been made by that time.

This wuss didn't say a thing to the effect of Macdonald having anything to do with the design of Merion in all the decades these men were alive yet had the audacity in the late 30s to suddenly call Merion as it existed at that time a Macdonald/Raynor course?!

He's the only one wh ever suggested any design attribution for them and I'm calling him a liar and I'm also saying he knew he was lying.

[JESII]

there you go Mike...that a way to keep the tone civil...

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

Is directing a verbal assault at a dead figure somehow being uncivil? 

[Dan Herrmann]

Let's keep this focused to #10

[DMoriarty]

You know...

The irony is that when Whigham said this he knew he was lying through his teeth.

First, he was fully aware that when the Macdonald committee laid out the holes at NGLA they took THREE MONTHS to route the holes and another TWO MONTHS to create topographical models, all while onsite before construction even began.

Mac was at Merion ONE DAY in June 1910 and advised them on agronomics and we have the letter that proves that.

Mac did not return to the property again for 10 months, and then again for ONE DAY to help the committee select the best of their 5 plans that THEY had coincidentally spent at least the last THREE MONTHS working on.

Whigham also knew by the late 30s that the Merion course in play at that time was almost night and day from the course opened in 1912, so many changes had been made by that time.

This wuss didn't say a thing to the effect of Macdonald having anything to do with the design of Merion in all the decades these men were alive yet had the audacity in the late 30s to suddenly call Merion as it existed at that time a Macdonald/Raynor course?!

He's the only one wh ever suggested any design attribution for them and I'm calling him a liar and I'm also saying he knew he was lying.

Hey Mike, have I ever said anything this rude or offensive about Hugh Wilson?   If so show me where?   

H.J. Whigham was a great man, well respected across many disciplines, highly intelligent and articulate yet modest and prone to understatement, an adviser to Presidents and Prime Ministers, anexpert on foreign relations, art, architecture, and golf, an accomplished writer and editor, a war correspondent, a champion golfer, and more. Surely a pipsqueak like you has no business mocking him or insulting him.  You should be ashamed. 

_______________________

Dan, I agree.

So what evidence is there that Flynn had creative input into the redesign of 10?

[Mike_Cirba]

Dave,

Do we think Whigham might have been ill himself by then?

How could he possibly call the Merion course as it was in 1938 a M&W course?

Even if your theory is correct and they did the original routing, that would be like Tommy Fazio crediting Stonewall to Tom Fazio in some distant future upon the latter's demise.  Actually, it would be worse than that because large parts of Merion were completely re-routed by then.

Whigham HAD to know better.

[Dan Herrmann]

Back to #10...

How much do you think the conditioning of the off-fairway areas affects the playability of the hole (I think a LOT).  And, would the Wilson (and Flynn) have considered thick fescues in their design?

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