[Adam Clayman]

Pat, Just my sense. Adding length has never stopped these guys from going low. There appears to be plenty of room on the greens and in fairway widths, for the best players on the planet. Deep bunkers do not affect these guys. Flat lies in the fairways do, however.

The new approach look to 13th is lamentable. Taking one of the more unique greens in the world and turing into what appears just another repetitive look.

The fifth's bunker berm is placed there for whom?

Great comment about the ninth green being viewer unfriendly.

The 16th appears the least altered. Is that the case?

[Paul Richards]

>Overall, I would agree it may not have that strategic mettle of notable Open courses. 

I am glad you mention 'notable Open courses' - then, of course, you have Torrey Pines.....


 

[PCCraig]

Well I played Dubs yesterday afternoon...and I'm still recovering!!!

I thought it was telling that despite having 5 sets of tees on the scorecard, the furthest tee markers set out where the Blues at 6700 yards. Even still my buddy and I decided to play the "Gold" tees that are +/- 7200 yards, by playing one tee box behind whatever box had the blue tees.

I took pictures, that I haven't had the chance to upload yet, but here are a few general comments;

*Adam Clayman - I value your opinion, but I think you are 100% wrong about the pro's eating this course up. Jones was given an assignment to make this a US Open-difficult golf course and he delivered. The main differences in the redesign of each hole are that 1) they are all much longer, 2) there are more fairway bunkers that, while not always being visible, are far far far deeper, 3) the greenside bunkers are not just deep they encompass the most of the elevated greens, and 4) the greens have much more slope than they did before.
             * So in essence I thought the course was very tough...but not quite fair in the least bit.

*When I played the greens were very firm, which has been explained to us as being the greens are somewhat new, but it had to of been because of this new sub-air system as well, because the greens were actually browning out in some spots where there was heavy slope in the greens. This made hitting anything more than a PW tough to hold on the elevated greens. On a couple occations (#8) I hit a 52* wedge (that is one week old with fresh grooves) into the green perfectly to a front pin thinking it would be 10 feet...it hit a front mound and bounced to the back of the green. On #3 I hit a perfect 6 Iron up the hill at the green just over the front bunker that bounced through to the rough on the back of the green. On #10 I hit a PW to a back pin that took two hops and bounced into the back bunker. (I could keep going but I wont sorry).

*I played with a steady 15-20mph wind that made things a little tougher than usual.

*The greens have much more slope than I remembered with the old design, and for some reason I feel the greens are smaller than they used to be? Can anyone who is more familiar with the course comment on that?

* It seems they designed the 5th and 15th holes as to be played as par-4's for the professionals, I made a couple hard earned 4's on those holes but the greens were somewhat softer than many of the others.

* The other R. Jones redesign that I have a decent amount of experience with is Bellerive, and I can say that Jones went a bit overboard in making Dubs play hard, while restraining himself a bit in the redesign of Bellerive (which is tough in its own right, but not overbearing IMO).
    * The new #7 at Cog is a reverse new #2 at Bellerive. Jones essentially took down a bunch of trees, built a lake, and has the hole play around it with a couple "framing" fairway bunkers on the opposite side of the lake.

* We teed off pretty much right at 2pm, and finished at 5:20pm, but by playing through three groups. On #6 we caught up to a 4-some of guys that were really into their round (plum bobbing their putts, numerous practice strokes, probably a "cheater" line or two). I can't imagine that this course would be much enjoyable for the average golfer on a daily or once a week basis, and while the guys on a weekend morning could probably handle it fine as they know the course well, the afternoon rounds would have to be an average of 5 hours for a 4-some of guys keeping serious score.

* My back nine consisted of 2 birdies (#15 & #17) 1 par (#12) 5 bogeys, and 1 double bogey (#11) for a 41 on the back...whew!

* All that being said...I think its a darn good value for $150 in Chicago. There arn't many "weak" holes and I would rather pay an extra $50-$60 more than most "upscale" publics in Chicago on a weekend.

I'll try to post pictures later on. 

[Mark Smolens]

Pat,
I would agree with you that Mr. Jones's work was supposed to make the course difficult, and he succeeded.  I just thought that the course was relentless.  If you don't hit a good shot, you will pay.  There always used to be spots out there where you could relax, just a little (five was an easy par-5, now a tough, long par-4; eight remains the only "breather" on the front; you could hit it pretty far right on ten and still hit the green, now you're in one of the deep fwy bunkers).

Steve, the grass has always been kept pretty long around the greens -- it used to be much better to be in the bunker than the rough, but that's no longer the case (I'm admittedly short, but there's a lot of those bunkers that are so deep I can no longer see the surface from them).

Adam, I would suggest a visit before assessing the difficulty for the big kids.  Three years ago I played with my friend Billy and two of his local section pro buddies in a practice round before the Western Open.  We played all the way back.  I shot 80, and all of the pros were under 75 (Marty Schiene shot 69, and Billy Rosinia shot 70).  From the tips today -- or perhaps Sunday afternoon if it doesn't rain -- the over/under for my round will be about 90. . .

[PCCraig]

Pat,
I would agree with you that Mr. Jones's work was supposed to make the course difficult, and he succeeded.  I just thought that the course was relentless.  If you don't hit a good shot, you will pay.  There always used to be spots out there where you could relax, just a little (five was an easy par-5, now a tough, long par-4; eight remains the only "breather" on the front; you could hit it pretty far right on ten and still hit the green, now you're in one of the deep fwy bunkers).

Steve, the grass has always been kept pretty long around the greens -- it used to be much better to be in the bunker than the rough, but that's no longer the case (I'm admittedly short, but there's a lot of those bunkers that are so deep I can no longer see the surface from them).

Adam, I would suggest a visit before assessing the difficulty for the big kids.  Three years ago I played with my friend Billy and two of his local section pro buddies in a practice round before the Western Open.  We played all the way back.  I shot 80, and all of the pros were under 75 (Marty Schiene shot 69, and Billy Rosinia shot 70).  From the tips today -- or perhaps Sunday afternoon if it doesn't rain -- the over/under for my round will be about 90. . .

I worked for an 81 from the 7200 tees on Sunday. From the tips I think I would shoot 90+ easy!

I don't think the difficulty comes from the fairway bunkers as much as from the length and the fact that a mid or long iron into some of these greens just doesn't work. They either catch a super tough greenside bunker or bounce off the surface into a bunker. Maybe it would be easier if the greens were a little softer?

I think they did a fine job considering it seems they only want to become a Open "rota" course. Period. And it seems their business model is that once they can get an Open, they will bank on the idea that people will pay (eventually) $200+ to get beat up by the course a la Bethpage, Pinehurst, and Pebble.

I'm all for them getting the actual Open and they want it so bad I can't imagine that the USGA can ignore them and the city of Chicago forever.

[tlavin]

Pat:

You are correct in your assessment of Cook County.  This place is a joke - highest sales tax in the nation, and the corruption is beyond belief.  You know - 'The Cook County Way' - is dirty dealings, family connections, giving your job to your children - including the Cook County President - nepotism, cronyism, payoffs, and of course, we have sent 'our way' to Washington now as well....  The County is in trouble and nearly bankrupt, yet Stroger won't lay anyone off, especially not all of the family members that are on the County's payrolls.... It is just ugly here.

I came across this in the latest GolfWorld:

"Every step of the way, they were an impediment... We were scratching our heads.  We thought, 'If this is how they're going to treat us, maybe we should go elsewhere.'"  --  Mike Davis, the USGA's senior director of rules and competitions, on the association's interaction with Cook County, IL officials when Olympia Fields hosted the 2003 US Open, which could impact Cog Hill's efforts to land a US Open.

Mark:

The housing market is pretty awful on the south side of Chicago, as in many other places around the US, so I am doubtful that any sale of any holes for housing will be in the plans for many, many years.

First of all, on the question of whether the golf course is "Open worthy", I would give a qualified "yes" to that question.  It certainly is much more difficult than it was a couple years ago, principally because of the length and the location and severity of the fairway bunkers.  Rees Jones certainly knows how to place bunkers in areas that will cause difficulties for the pros during a major.  He transformed Torrey from a passable Tour stop into a very challenging (yet flexible set-up wise) site for a US Open.  I think he's done the same thing with Dubsdread.  This, of course, is a separate question from whether the golf course has significant architectural merit.  The answer to that inquiry is probably not as favorable, because difficulty doesn't always equate with great design, as we all know.  Three of the par three holes are dreadfully similar, a complaint that is always hurled Medinah's way.  The course has but one great three shot hole, the ninth and the other two (11 and 15) are certainly less than stellar.  The golf course has a great deal of visual interest because of the great elevation changes and the occasional natural water hazards and the new addition of the deep and steep bunkers really has dramatically increased both the interest and difficulty of the course off the tee.

As for the Cook County issue, I am intimately familiar with the situation and the whole problem could have been settled with a phone call from a politically active member.  The USGA declined to do this and instead insisted upon trying to solve their political problem on their own.  This, in foresight and in hindsight, was a big mistake.  The County Board President had an antipathy for Olympia borne of the fact that the club would not admit his friend (also an African American) as the first black member of the club, despite the fact that he owned a big house adjacent to the club.  This was clearly a race-based decision in some respects at the time, but it shouldn't have prevented the president from doing the right thing.  But the solution never came about because the USGA chose to handle the matter on its own instead of asking for help.  Nothing illegal would have been involved, of course, but the president just needed to be assured that the club's "heart" had been repaired in the meantime.  As a result, the USGA got stuck with a $500,000 bill that should have been more like $100,000.

The situation politically has changed and there should be no impediment to Cog Hill OR Olympia Fields hosting a US Open. 

[Mark Smolens]

Terry, nice info on the back story about the USGA, your club and the County.  As usual, there's always more than what appears on the surface.

I don't think that 15 will play as a par-5 for the big kids, so that objection to the par-5s must fall aside.  I would like to have seen something more done to the 11th hole.  I still don't like the fact that from the bunker on the right, I must also negotiate a large tree (like the old line of trees that used to block the fwy bunker on # 7).

In any event, in terms of the logistics of putting on an Open, I don't see how Erin Hills can hold a candle to Cog Hill -- and that's not even considering an attempt to in some manner reward the Jemsek family for their history of catering to the public golfers of the world.  I saw on another thread about Mr. Lang taking his course out of play until July to make changes.  How about Frank closing the course for more than an entire season?

How about a midwest Open rotation of Cog Hill, OF, and EH -- sort of like the Bethpage, Shinny, WF rotation in New York?

[PCCraig]

Pat:

You are correct in your assessment of Cook County.  This place is a joke - highest sales tax in the nation, and the corruption is beyond belief.  You know - 'The Cook County Way' - is dirty dealings, family connections, giving your job to your children - including the Cook County President - nepotism, cronyism, payoffs, and of course, we have sent 'our way' to Washington now as well....  The County is in trouble and nearly bankrupt, yet Stroger won't lay anyone off, especially not all of the family members that are on the County's payrolls.... It is just ugly here.

I came across this in the latest GolfWorld:

"Every step of the way, they were an impediment... We were scratching our heads.  We thought, 'If this is how they're going to treat us, maybe we should go elsewhere.'"  --  Mike Davis, the USGA's senior director of rules and competitions, on the association's interaction with Cook County, IL officials when Olympia Fields hosted the 2003 US Open, which could impact Cog Hill's efforts to land a US Open.

Mark:

The housing market is pretty awful on the south side of Chicago, as in many other places around the US, so I am doubtful that any sale of any holes for housing will be in the plans for many, many years.

First of all, on the question of whether the golf course is "Open worthy", I would give a qualified "yes" to that question.  It certainly is much more difficult than it was a couple years ago, principally because of the length and the location and severity of the fairway bunkers.  Rees Jones certainly knows how to place bunkers in areas that will cause difficulties for the pros during a major.  He transformed Torrey from a passable Tour stop into a very challenging (yet flexible set-up wise) site for a US Open.  I think he's done the same thing with Dubsdread.  This, of course, is a separate question from whether the golf course has significant architectural merit.  The answer to that inquiry is probably not as favorable, because difficulty doesn't always equate with great design, as we all know.  Three of the par three holes are dreadfully similar, a complaint that is always hurled Medinah's way.  The course has but one great three shot hole, the ninth and the other two (11 and 15) are certainly less than stellar.  The golf course has a great deal of visual interest because of the great elevation changes and the occasional natural water hazards and the new addition of the deep and steep bunkers really has dramatically increased both the interest and difficulty of the course off the tee.

As for the Cook County issue, I am intimately familiar with the situation and the whole problem could have been settled with a phone call from a politically active member.  The USGA declined to do this and instead insisted upon trying to solve their political problem on their own.  This, in foresight and in hindsight, was a big mistake.  The County Board President had an antipathy for Olympia borne of the fact that the club would not admit his friend (also an African American) as the first black member of the club, despite the fact that he owned a big house adjacent to the club.  This was clearly a race-based decision in some respects at the time, but it shouldn't have prevented the president from doing the right thing.  But the solution never came about because the USGA chose to handle the matter on its own instead of asking for help.  Nothing illegal would have been involved, of course, but the president just needed to be assured that the club's "heart" had been repaired in the meantime.  As a result, the USGA got stuck with a $500,000 bill that should have been more like $100,000.

The situation politically has changed and there should be no impediment to Cog Hill OR Olympia Fields hosting a US Open. 

Terry-

Are the members of OFCC pushing for another Open?

[PCCraig]

An interesting article from the Chicago Tribune on a round with Jones last week at Dubs. He's a 9 handicap and shot 89??

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/chi-24-rees-jones-18-holes-may24,0,7869155.story

[Jim Colton]

An interesting article from the Chicago Tribune on a round with Jones last week at Dubs. He's a 9 handicap and shot 89??

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/chi-24-rees-jones-18-holes-may24,0,7869155.story

Interesting take on Rees' stance on the GD rankings and the overweight on the resistance to scoring aspect.  I agree with him, but isn't this exactly what he's doing here at Cog and with his other Open doctorings -- making the courses a lot more resistant to scoring?

Can the presence of an ocean really move a course from outside the top 100 to top 20?

 

[Mark Smolens]

Jim,
If Pebble Beach were in Kansas, where would it be ranked?  Difficult for me to say.  I've only played Pebble twice, and must confess to having been mesmerized by the ocean views from the middle of the second hole on.

[PCCraig]

An interesting article from the Chicago Tribune on a round with Jones last week at Dubs. He's a 9 handicap and shot 89??

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/chi-24-rees-jones-18-holes-may24,0,7869155.story

Interesting take on Rees' stance on the GD rankings and the overweight on the resistance to scoring aspect.  I agree with him, but isn't this exactly what he's doing here at Cog and with his other Open doctorings -- making the courses a lot more resistant to scoring?

Yes, I think that is what he's getting at. He did a very good job of making the course harder (and better IMO)

Can the presence of an ocean really move a course from outside the top 100 to top 20?

That was a dumb comment. Cog is nice and all, but that layout on an Ocean would look alot like Torrey Pines on a cloudy day.

 

[Paul Richards]

>The situation politically has changed and there should be no impediment to Cog Hill OR Olympia Fields hosting a US Open.

Terry

Sure hope you are right.

Either course is worthy, IMHO. 

It is a sin that the USGA has removed Chicago from the Open rota.

Maybe the newly enlightened USGA will notice that fact and correct it soon!


BTW, was that our buddy Emil that gummed the works for OFCC?  He's the same guy who got rid of The Chief by threatening the U of I with loss of funding.  Glad he is gone - we have enough other political problems in this state already....

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