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Mike_Cirba

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2009, 09:21:57 AM »
Mike,

So, that's it!

I was wondering last night what would be DM's next research project....I understand he is going to blow the lid off the fact that the famous Turtle Soup at Pine Valley is really chicken.....

Well, actually Jeff...my understanding is that before that switch they brought in an outside PROFESSIONAL chef who recommended Tofu, but we've only found a single mention so far in the records, so it's likely that advice was ignored. 

;)

Mike Sweeney

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2009, 01:03:56 PM »
I will say that there is a greater likelihood that any newfound documents would show that CBM was MORE involved than would show he was less involved than currently believed, rather than less, given we can't "take off the table" the visits and reports already known about.  However, I was wrong about the first CBM letter to Lloyd, which talked only about soil and I could be wrong about this.  Its quite possible that someone could find the original notes of the Merion minutes credting him and find that cooler heads struck out the end of the sentence "We are grateful for CBM's help, but he is such a windbag, we can't take him anymore!"

So, there is the Cliff notes version (appropriate, since this whole thing has gone over the Cliff) - It will always be a matter of (strong) opinion or interpretation, no matter how many more facts about Merion's legacy surface.  And, with Mike Cirba showing more and more old photos of Merion in the early years, it is pretty clear that Wilson and others continued to make changes in the early years and that his "legend" is justified from the feature design evolution alone, because even if they started with many CBM templates, it seems clear that they wanted to generally go a different direction (and buckding old CB couldn't have been easy).  With enough photos, THAT would be an interesting examination in how one of America's great courses truly came to be great.  And, it might even have further applications to gca in general about how to create a great course!

Jeff,

Think about this possibility. I don't know the dates, but here is the theory:

1. MCC decides to build a new golf course and they form the Committee.

2. The Committee realizes they need help and reach out to M&W. M&W get them started.

3. After a few visits and interactions with Macdonald the Committee decides they have had enough of Chairlie. They don't ever fire or even piss off CB Mac. It is sort of "we will call you in Southampton" and they never do.

4. The Committee then sends Wilson to Europe to learn how to build the course. Basically it is a case of "if Macdonald can do it, so can we." And that is what they do. Wilson completes the course with the Committee after his visit to Europe.

5. CB Mac is back in Southampton. Raynor is his Protege working on a ton of courses and the Philly guys are a distant memory and thus they never make it into any of his writings such as Scotland's Gift.

6. Years pass and Merion forgets/chooses to forget Chairlie and the "story" of Wilson going overseas BEFORE the course was started is established as Club Legacy/History.

7. Years and years pass and then a couple of guys (Moriarity and MacWood?) start to check ship manifest for Wilson's trip, and we all know what happens from there.

8. Sweeney figures it all out and the Merion Era on GCA ends!  :D

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2009, 01:29:37 PM »
Mike Sweeney,

I guess it could have happened that way but you have a few things out of order. 

1.  CBM and Whigham were involved long before Wilson's construction Committee was ever appointed.
2.  CBM and Whigham remained involved all the way through the planning process, up until CBM and Whigham determined the final routing plan.   
3.  The course was planned, built, and seeded before Wilson went abroad.  Final touches such as mounds, some of the bunkers, and fancy grasses were added after, but the greens, tees, fairways, and some of the artificial features were in place before he ever went.

Your premise of them having had enough of Charlie seems to be of the same vein of much that is said on this website about how CBM was a pompous windbag with nothing really to offer (guess who I was thinking of when I wrote that) and that they just sort of put up with him until they could get rid of him.  But I don't think there is anything in the record to support this at all.   

To the contrary, Hugh Wilson and Merion appear to have been extremely grateful to have had the help of M&W, and seemed willing to take as much of of it as they could get.   Why would the meeting minutes make a point of noting that it was M&W who determined the final routing?    Why would they change the shape of the property on M&W's advice?    Why would they acknowledge them a few years later along with the committee?   

It is ironic and sad that M&W seem to have been quite devoted to helping Merion - two trips to Merion, two days of meetings a NGLA about Merion, who knows how much in terms of correspondence - and Merion seemed to really need and want their help,  yet M&W's legacy at Merion has been reduced to a caricature of a pompous asshole and his worthless lackey and 'yes' man.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 01:31:49 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2009, 01:45:22 PM »
If grateful Merion officials already gave them all that credit and their history reflects appreciation for their help, then what is the problem?

Between June 1910 when the property was first considered and September 1912 when it opened for play, I count M+W being onsite for 2 out of a possible 800+ days along with 2 hosting them to show them his course at NGLA and overses sketches.

And you're saying Merion isn't being appreciative enough?!?!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2009, 01:49:57 PM »
No Mike,  they were at MCC going over information CBM brought back for overseas and CBM's "plans."  You guys laughably dismiss this as being one and the same but I don't. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2009, 01:58:37 PM »
It was actually 2 out of 856 days.

Macdonald's first visit to what would become Merion East was to look at unpurchased, unmapped land for one day only, NINE MONTHS prior, yet when the Merion Committee rolled off the train in Southampton in early March 1911, Charlie is somehow standing there with plans for the Merion course he miraculously created thru mental telepathy.   ::) :o :P

It had taken him three months onsite and another two to create mapped models at NGLA yet suddenly had it down to such a science he was able to create Merion East through ESP!

Macdonald was not like the One Day Wonders and other pros from Great Britain who staked out 9 or 18 holes in an afternoon and moved on to the next group of starry-eyed innocents, like HH Barker.

His whole methodology was different, which is why he made clear that time onsite, attention to detail, and a painstaking process were needed and the only way to create excellent results.

As I said the other day, I believe the best advice Macdonald ever gave Merion was to blow off Barker and do it themselves as he had done at NGLA.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 02:58:04 PM by MCirba »

Mike Sweeney

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2009, 09:59:12 PM »
It is ironic and sad that M&W seem to have been quite devoted to helping Merion - two trips to Merion, two days of meetings a NGLA about Merion, who knows how much in terms of correspondence - and Merion seemed to really need and want their help,  yet M&W's legacy at Merion has been reduced to a caricature of a pompous asshole and his worthless lackey and 'yes' man.

DIDN'T CB MAC CONTRIBUTE TO THIS BY NOT MENTIONING MERION IN HIS WRITINGS, SPECIFICALLY SCOTLAND'S GIFT. MERION IS NEVER MENTIONED IN GEORGE'S BOOK. WHY WAS CB MAC SILENT ABOUT HIS INVOLVEMENT AT MERION? HE PROBABLY SPENT MORE TIME AT MERION THAN HE DID AT YALE. YET YALE GETS A BIG MENTION IN SCOTLAND'S GIFT BUT merion DOES NOT. wHY NOT?

ps. Merion is mentioned in the Whigham article copy in George's book.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 10:11:25 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Mike_Cirba

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2009, 10:05:23 PM »
Yes Mike, and Whigham gave credit to Macdonald for Yale as well.

At least that course was designed by an associate of Macdonald's.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 10:07:46 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2009, 10:28:30 PM »
"Mike Sweeney,

......Your premise of them having had enough of Charlie seems to be of the same vein of much that is said on this website about how CBM was a pompous windbag with nothing really to offer (guess who I was thinking of when I wrote that) and that they just sort of put up with him until they could get rid of him.  But I don't think there is anything in the record to support this at all."



Richard Choi et al.

When I get back from Virginia on Sunday or Monday, I am going to start to work up the real story of Charlie Macdonald and how a lot of people looked at him as time went along and I absolutely guarantee you I know more about that then David Moriarty could ever dream of knowing, no matter how he pontificates on here, and not the least of it being I was sort of a third generation Long Islander that grew up with it all. The golf clubs I grew up around back then were pretty much all Macdonald

The entire life of C.B. Macdonald should be told on here and not just his substantial part in developing an interesting model for early American architecture.

Charles Blair Macdonald really was in a position once to probably be not only the KING of American architecture but also the KING of American golf but for various reasons that are just so interesting it just didn't happen or happen that way and the reasons why are truly interesting, AND, in my opinion, more than a little sad maybe both for us and certainly for him.

Macdonald was clearly a man of huge force of opinion and will, but I just think he began to understand quite a bit earlier than most of us realize that he most certainly wasn't the only one.

I think the real deal with Macdonald is he was just up against a number of men who sort of had things their own way and the fact is in the broad scheme of things they were just a lot more powerful in what-all they were and who they were than Charlie ever was.   

And then there was the additional problem that Charlie had that was certainly not uncommon in that day and age and that world but some dealt with it better than others. Apparently Charlie wasn't exactly on the side of the coin of those who handled it better than others. 


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2009, 11:15:33 PM »
It is ironic and sad that M&W seem to have been quite devoted to helping Merion - two trips to Merion, two days of meetings a NGLA about Merion, who knows how much in terms of correspondence - and Merion seemed to really need and want their help,  yet M&W's legacy at Merion has been reduced to a caricature of a pompous asshole and his worthless lackey and 'yes' man.

DIDN'T CB MAC CONTRIBUTE TO THIS BY NOT MENTIONING MERION IN HIS WRITINGS, SPECIFICALLY SCOTLAND'S GIFT. MERION IS NEVER MENTIONED IN GEORGE'S BOOK. WHY WAS CB MAC SILENT ABOUT HIS INVOLVEMENT AT MERION? HE PROBABLY SPENT MORE TIME AT MERION THAN HE DID AT YALE. YET YALE GETS A BIG MENTION IN SCOTLAND'S GIFT BUT merion DOES NOT. wHY NOT?

ps. Merion is mentioned in the Whigham article copy in George's book.


1. Hugh Wilson never claimed to have designed the course, either.

2. I don't think CBM ever took credit for a course that he and/or Raynor didn't both design and BUILD. 

3. Scotland's Gift doesn't come close to mentioning all that CBM worked on. 

4. M&W does mention Merion in his 1914 article on the Redan, along with three other CBM Redan's and the hole at Pine Valley with the redan-like green. (Whose suggestion was that green, anyway?)

5. CBM was apparently quite proud of Merion, bragging to Tillinghast about Merion as if he had a large role in the process.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 11:17:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Nugent

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2009, 03:36:12 AM »

5. CBM was apparently quite proud of Merion, bragging to Tillinghast about Merion as if he had a large role in the process.


Yet Tillie says Wilson designed Merion.  What do you make of that? 

Mike Sweeney

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2009, 04:00:14 AM »
David,

You may think that my former affinity for cheesesteaks and soft pretzels leads me to be part of this conspiracy against you and your essay. It really does not and I am intrigued by the involvement of CB Mac at Merion. Obviously I am interested in history and I am interested in Merion. It just makes absolutely no sense to me that CB Mac did not toot his own horn in reference to Merion. Mac and Whigham win the 1885, 1896 and 1897 US Amateur. They then build Merion which then debuts in national competition when it hosted the 1916 U.S. Amateur won by Chick Evans.  According to the Merion website, "The 1916 championship also marked the first national appearance of Robert T. "Bobby" Jones, Jr., then 14 years old, who went on to win his first National Amateur in 1924. Jones closed his international career winning the 1930 U.S. Amateur on Merion's eleventh hole in the same year."

1928 - Scotland's Gift is published
1939 - Macdonald dies

So Merion does not just turn into a Sleepy Hollow or Mid Ocean. We are talking about a course known around the world and played by and won on by the world's most famous golfer.


1. Hugh Wilson never claimed to have designed the course, either.

YOU YELL AT MIKE CIRBA FOR DOING THIS, NOW STOP CHANGING THE QUESTION. THIS IS ABOUT CB MAC WHO WROTE SCOTLANDS GIFT AND WON THE US AMATEUR.

2. I don't think CBM ever took credit for a course that he and/or Raynor didn't both design and BUILD. 

THIS IS A KEY QUESTION. WHERE WAS RAYNOR? DID CB MAC DO ANY OTHER COURSES WITHOUT RAYNOR?

3. Scotland's Gift doesn't come close to mentioning all that CBM worked on. 

WHAT OTHER COURSES ARE MISSING. DID THEY HOLD US AMATEURS WON BY BOBBY JONES?

4. M&W does mention Merion in his 1914 article on the Redan, along with three other CBM Redan's and the hole at Pine Valley with the redan-like green. (Whose suggestion was that green, anyway?)

I AM SURE IT HAS BEEN POSTED BEFORE BUT DO YOU HAVE THE ARTICLE?

5. CBM was apparently quite proud of Merion, bragging to Tillinghast about Merion as if he had a large role in the process.

AGAIN, SORRY FOR THE REPEAT BUT DO YOU HAVE THE ARTICLE?


It appears that you are focused on how Merion hushed up the involvement of CB Mac. You have gotten emotional in this quest as you feel that you have been shut down too by Merion. Let's say you are right and there was a conspiracy. Why did CB Mac allow it to happen? You are talking about a guy who "looked all over the East Coast" for a site for National and he picks one directly next to Shinnecock, a club that he was having issues with? This is not a guy who walks away from controversy. Thus in my mind the only answer is he did not feel emotionally attached to Merion and just saw it as a brief consulting gig. If I am wrong, why did CB Mac allow the Philly guys to push him aside? He lived for roughly 25 years after Merion's opening and yet there are how many references to Merion in his writings?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 04:10:38 AM by Mike Sweeney »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2009, 01:03:21 PM »
Mike S.,

This is a Cliffs Note thread, which is good because  I don't have time to rehash all that has been covered many times before, but I will try and touch on the highlights.

Sorry for the length, but you ask a lot of questions, some of which I haven't even answered.

It just makes absolutely no sense to me that CB Mac did not toot his own horn in reference to Merion.

The implicit assumption here is that CBM would necessarily have tooted his horn about Merion long after his contribution.  But given how he dealt with other projects where we was not in charge of the entire process from beginning through build, I don't think this assumption is sound.  Remember, when M&W first saw Merion, Barker had already done a preliminary routing of the course, and after M&W approved the final routing I think their involvement was greatly diminished.   Also there were others (including the Committee) involved in the initial design process and through the build.    Plus as many have noticed Merion continued to evolve over the years, without CBM's direct involvement. 

Given all of this, I wouldn't have expected him to toot his own horn much about Merion, especially almost 30 years later in his book.   If anything survived from the Barker routing, do you expect he would have enjoyed sharing credit with Barker, not only a dreaded professional, but also a colleague of Travis, with whom CBM may have just had a falling out?

But all that being said, he apparently did do some horn tooting shortly after his of his involvement.  Here is the passage from Tillinghast that Joe Bausch posted, from the May 14 1911 Public Ledger.  This was published a few months after CBM determined the final routing at Merion.



Call me crazy but is sure sounds like CBM was bragging about Merion as if it were his own.   Tillie apparently thought so.

Quote
THIS IS A KEY QUESTION. WHERE WAS RAYNOR? DID CB MAC DO ANY OTHER COURSES WITHOUT RAYNOR?

I believe NGLA was the first course where Raynor worked with CBM.  I have never seen any conclusive evidence that Raynor was involved at Merion.  But I would never claim that CBM "DID" Merion like he did his other courses with CBM.  I have always tried to be very specific about CBM's involvement at Merion, limiting it to routing and hole concepts, and whatever details were discussed at NGLA, and determining the final routing.  I've never claimed he was involved in working out every detail, or that he was responsible for drafting detailed plans, or or the construction, or any of the many changes and adjustments that were made.  This is part of why i have tried to stay out of disputes about "credit."   CBM may have been the major creative force behind the design, but he cannot be given credit for the details or how his visions were carried out.   

For example, was the 10th CBM's hole?  It was very likely his idea and his placement, but CBM wasn't involved in its construction and may not have been involved in determining many of the details, and I am not so sure that CBM would have wanted to closely associate himself with the final product.   He and Whigham did not mention the hole in his article on the Alps in 1914, nor do I believe he mentioned any Alps but Prestwick and NGLA.

I am not even sure CBM ever saw Merion after he determined their final routing in March 1911.  Do you really expect him to brag for 20 years about a course he may have never even seen finished?  It is not as if he didn't have anything else to brag about.

Quote
It appears that you are focused on how Merion hushed up the involvement of CB Mac

This is untrue.   I have been falsely accused of this, repeatedly so.   But I have never claimed it or believed it.   It is yet another rhetorical creation used to manipulate the argument. 

My understanding is that there was never a conspiracy, just a series of innocent and understandable misunderstandings.  The date of the trip got confused, and the date and IMPORTANCE of the NGLA meeting about the layout got garbled, and eventually M&W didn't seem all that important to the process.  They didn't build the course, were only on site a few times, and since Wilson had studied all this and come up with all of it on his own, then what exactly did M&W do again?     I guess they must have advised Wilson what to see on this trip, surely he doesn't deserve credit for Merion based on that . . .    And so it goes.   

If you have already assumed all of the above, then it is pretty easy to dismiss them as just having had offered a bit of advice here and there.   But while they were called advisors, it is a mistake to assume they did not play a crucial role, or that Merion did not recognize this in the beginning.  When he announced the courses to the world, Lesley acknowledged M&W right along with the Committee.   He called the members part of a "Committee" and M&W "advisors,"  and later generations have used this to diminish M&W's contribution, but what was he supposed to call them?   They weren't members and couldn't have been part of the committee.   They didn't build the course.   They weren't on site.    I don't think there was the phrase "consulting architect" had been invented, nor was there much use of the phrase "golf course architect" at this time.   "Advisors" was not a necessarily a diminutive term, and wasn't meant as such, and we shouldn't treat it as such. 

Think of all the contributions of those who undoubtedly offered advice in the way we seem to think of the term offering advice.   Piper, Oakley, Beale, Pickering, Findlay and others.  Yet Lesley only listed the Committee and M&W as responsible for the course.   If Lesley saw fit to include M&W in 1914, we ought to respect that and consider it carefully.

Quote
Why did CB Mac allow it to happen? You are talking about a guy who "looked all over the East Coast" for a site for National and he picks one directly next to Shinnecock, a club that he was having issues with? This is not a guy who walks away from controversy. Thus in my mind the only answer is he did not feel emotionally attached to Merion and just saw it as a brief consulting gig. If I am wrong, why did CB Mac allow the Philly guys to push him aside? He lived for roughly 25 years after Merion's opening and yet there are how many references to Merion in his writings?

I don't think he was pushed aside during his lifetime, much of the misunderstanding might have come about with H.W. Wind, and with the Francis article.   But I doubt CBM would have cared much if he was "pushed aside."  CBM was a very accomplished man, and I don't think that providing a routing and hole concepts and determining the final lay out plan was that big a deal to him.    In other words, Merion needed CBM much more than CBM needed Merion.   Given that he didn't build it and given that he believed that courses evolved over time, why would he care what they said?

The link to the article on the Redan is here:  www.la84foundation.org/index/GolfIllustratedOutdoorAmerica1915.html

Here is the excerpt where they mention Merion.  Notice they don't mention that they had anything to do with their other courses either.

There are several Redans to be found nowadays on American courses. There is a simplified Redan at Piping Rock, a reversed Redan at Merion Cricket Club (the green being approached from the left hand end of the tableland) and another reversed Redan at Sleepy Hollow where the tee instead of being about level with the green is much higher. A beautiful short hole with the Redan principle will be found on the new Philadelphia course at Pine Valley. Here also the tee is higher than the hole, so that the player overlooks the tableland. The principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any course. . . . The principle of the Redan cannot be improved upon for a hole of 180 yards.

__________________________

Yet Tillie says Wilson designed Merion.  What do you make of that? 

I think we need to consider the context of the quote.  It was long after major redesigns at Merion, and after Wilson has passed.  And it was a very pointed statement that Wilson was not being given his due with regard to Merion.  Surely Tillie did not have CBM in mind. 

To put it bluntly, I think was directed squarely at one of Tillie's major competitors.  William Flynn.   And to put it just as bluntly, Tillie had a pretty good point.   Unless there are facts of which I am not aware, it is a travesty that Flynn is given credit for what Wilson accomplished at Merion before his death. 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 05:36:01 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Sweeney

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2009, 07:06:13 PM »
David,

I do appreciate your response, and I don't want to get all Mucci/lawerly on you by breaking it into pieces. I will just say that what you wrote above seems to make the case for for Macdonald as consultant. That is just the way I read it.

I wish the entire Merion saga had maintained the decorum of this thread, but I have to admit I have had moments of laughter over the intensity of the discussion.

Thanks

Mike_Cirba

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2009, 09:01:13 PM »
I don't think he was pushed aside during his lifetime, much of the misunderstanding might have come about with H.W. Wind, and with the Francis article.   But I doubt CBM would have cared much if he was "pushed aside."  CBM was a very accomplished man, and I don't think that providing a routing and hole concepts and determining the final lay out plan was that big a deal to him.    In other words, Merion needed CBM much more than CBM needed Merion.   Given that he didn't build it and given that he believed that courses evolved over time, why would he care what they said?

The link to the article on the Redan is here:  www.la84foundation.org/index/GolfIllustratedOutdoorAmerica1915.html

Here is the excerpt where they mention Merion.  Notice they don't mention that they had anything to do with their other courses either.

There are several Redans to be found nowadays on American courses. There is a simplified Redan at Piping Rock, a reversed Redan at Merion Cricket Club (the green being approached from the left hand end of the tableland) and another reversed Redan at Sleepy Hollow where the tee instead of being about level with the green is much higher. A beautiful short hole with the Redan principle will be found on the new Philadelphia course at Pine Valley. Here also the tee is higher than the hole, so that the player overlooks the tableland. The principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any course. . . . The principle of the Redan cannot be improved upon for a hole of 180 yards.

__________________________

Yet Tillie says Wilson designed Merion.  What do you make of that? 

I think we need to consider the context of the quote.  It was long after major redesigns at Merion, and after Wilson has passed.  And it was a very pointed statement that Wilson was not being given his due with regard to Merion.  Surely Tillie did not have CBM in mind. 

To put it bluntly, I think was directed squarely at one of Tillie's major competitors.  William Flynn.   And to put it just as bluntly, Tillie had a pretty good point.   Unless there are facts of which I am not aware, it is a travesty that Flynn is given credit for what Wilson accomplished at Merion before his death. 

There isn't even a point typing responses anymore.

Macdonald mentioned a bunch of redans in an article including Pine Valley and Merion.   I guess that's clear PROOF it's Macdonald who designed it?

Merion needed Macdonald....it was all a big misunderstanding caused by Herbert Warren Wind and Richard Francis??

Tillinghast was trying to slight William Flynn by crediting Hugh Wilson with Merion???...

How can you make this crap up?

NOT a WORD of it has any basis in fact...

It's getting pretty deep in here.   Aren't you the one who wanted this to be a "fact-based" discusion?

 ::)

« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 10:03:36 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2009, 01:31:12 AM »
David,

I do appreciate your response, and I don't want to get all Mucci/lawerly on you by breaking it into pieces. I will just say that what you wrote above seems to make the case for for Macdonald as consultant. That is just the way I read it.

I would rather figure what his actual influence was than debating what his title should be.  For example, what did he contribute to the actual course generally and specifically.   Maybe someday we will get to that conversation.

That being said, I will throw this out there.  I don't think that in modern connotation of "consultant" or "advisor" are not strong enough terms to describe his contribution.  In my opinion he was really crucial to what was accomplished at Merion, and it is too dismissive to call him a consultant or advisor because that implies that maybe they listened to him and maybe they didn't.   In his case, they listened.

In modern terminoogy, maybe "consulting architect" might be the closest description, if I understand that title correctly.  I say this because I think he was very much guiding them, but he wasn't in charge of actually directing the work.  He was telling them what he thought should be done, and then they did it without his involvement.   Does that make any sense?   

Quote
I wish the entire Merion saga had maintained the decorum of this thread, but I have to admit I have had moments of laughter over the intensity of the discussion.

I wish so to, and it is what I was hoping for when I came back and posted my essay  But look even what is happening on this thread.   I try to answer your questions and provide a couple of excerpts you requested, and here comes Mike Cirba, with the usual sarcasm and indignation, and absurd hyperbole. 

It's getting deep in here . . . There is no evidence that Merion needed CBM . . . how can you make this crap up.  No evidence that Merion needed CBM?  Merion brought him down to help them choose their land, consulted him on a variety of issues, traveled to NGLA to meet with him for two days during the planning stages, and brought him back to determine the final routing.  What is this, if not evidence that they needed him? 

So much for decorum and reasonable discussion.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 01:36:56 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2009, 01:06:59 PM »
Mike Sweeney,

A friend of mine who truly knows his stuff reminded me that to find a very famous course with which CBM was very involved but never really discussed one need only look next door to NGLA, to Shinnecock.    While the course was already there, CBM reportedly redesigned the entire course, yet he didn't discuss his work there in either Scotland's Gift or in his other writings that I have seen. 

On a related note,  I was rereading H.J. Whigham's "The Evangelist of Golf," reprinted in George Bahto's excellent book of the same name, and it occurred to me that as protective as CBM was of NGLA's reputation, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he did not try to bolster his own reputation (and Merion's) as Merion became more famous.   According to Whigham, CBM "was indeed so jealous of NGLA's reputation that he even disliked listening to praise of his own Lido."
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2009, 02:46:42 PM »
David,
Are you proposing that CBM, not Flynn, designed the Shinnecock we see today?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2009, 03:02:30 PM »
David,
Are you proposing that CBM, not Flynn, designed the Shinnecock we see today?

What on earth gave you that idea?   I said CBM reportedly redesigned the entire course.  That is all I said.   

This was before Flynn did or didn't do whatever Wayne alleges he did.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jay Flemma

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Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2009, 05:24:26 PM »
From the latest version of Cliff notes:

1- Merion was designed by Wilson...
2- No, Merion was designed by CBM & H.H. Barker did a routing and here's my essay to prove it...
3- You're full of crap!
4- No, you're full of crap!
5- No, you're full of crap (back and forth for about 20 pages finally costing two passionate gentleman historians their memberships)
6- More pages of "No, you're full of crap" interspersed with some fascinating information and debate...
7- A pause, quiet peace, enforced cease-fire, however one defines it...
8- Several new threads with more of the same...
9- Latest threads far more polite and with more great info and debate...

I can't wait for 2013 and my U.S. Open preview piece so I can quote you!  That is the funniest thing!
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2009, 06:13:30 PM »
I this was going to be a short "cliff notes" version of the Merion brouhaha?  Somehow the Cirba vs. Moriarty has spilled over onto three threads consistently at the top of our beloved board.  For heaven's sake guys!!

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