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Anthony Gray

Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« on: May 27, 2009, 08:38:31 AM »

  Newcomer Chris Wirthwein tells an awesome story about the spirit of the game on the "Gentlemans" thread. His story embodies the Scottish golf culture.

  How does the culture of golf differ in the US and UK?

  Let's for discussion sake leave out the cart/distance aids issues and focus on more the social aspects.

  Is it evident in the Ryder Cup teams?

  How is it evident on this web site? Do the UK and US guys post differently?

  Anthony


Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2009, 08:54:32 AM »
Anthony- I quite often post and try and state from a UK perspective, climates and budgets mean some things we cant do, for instance in the UK we cant keep out Poa. We operate on tiny grounds crew, some small clubs might only have 2 or 3 greenstaff whilst some of the bigger courses (top 100) might have 5! Many UK courses perhaps 90% do not have irrigation on fairways we rely on the sky. Our membership clubs here are cheap in comparison to American clubs, I think here (although it is getting far less) golfers are more likely to be members of a club, In the US you can play some good pay and play courses for reasonable value.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Anthony Gray

Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2009, 08:59:02 AM »
Anthony- I quite often post and try and state from a UK perspective, climates and budgets mean some things we cant do, for instance in the UK we cant keep out Poa. We operate on tiny grounds crew, some small clubs might only have 2 or 3 greenstaff whilst some of the bigger courses (top 100) might have 5! Many UK courses perhaps 90% do not have irrigation on fairways we rely on the sky. Our membership clubs here are cheap in comparison to American clubs, I think here (although it is getting far less) golfers are more likely to be members of a club, In the US you can play some good pay and play courses for reasonable value.

  Adrain,

  Thanks for your input. The US does water fairways too much. It lessons the weather variable which I think violates the roots of golf.

  Thanks..... Anthony


PCCraig

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2009, 09:55:17 AM »
I would be more interested in the differences between the US and Canada.
H.P.S.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2009, 10:06:53 AM »
Anthony,
There are 3 climate zones in the UK.  There are 11 climate zones in the U.S..
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Anthony Gray

Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009, 10:14:05 AM »
I would be more interested in the differences between the US and Canada.

  Chris's story just does not happen in America. Maybe in Canada or Lawenceville Ill.

  Anthony


Trey Stiles

Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2009, 10:15:59 AM »
I'm not really up on UK golf culture , but I think you can look at how our premier championships have influenced our golf culture and draw a few conclusions :

UK : The Open Championship ... Hard , Fast and brown conditions , the host course may or may not be in perceived good shape , the score will be high if the wind blows , if it's calm ,the scores will be low and nobody seems to care.

US : The Masters ... Green-Tee-Fairway-Rough-Pine Straw Perfection , Bunker Perfection , Clubhouse Perfection ... Every Judge Schmales in the US wants their club to be just like ANGC ( and it flows thru the golf food chain to every market segment ) ... When the scores are too low , everybody goes nuts and starts digging up the place to protect their egos ( Ooops : Did I say that ) .... What was considered great in 1975 is now considered as second tier.

Dare I say many of our current golf economics challenges are due to the Arms race of the last 20 yrs ?

Philippe Binette

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2009, 10:23:04 AM »
It's an easy one:

In the UK, the game is based on acceptance of the conditions, the weather, the ground on which the course was built, the bounces etc.
In the US / Canada, the game is based on imposition and control, only the weather can go wild... but you can always call a weather delay!!!

Nuance US / Canada, I don't know...

Canada / Quebec : huge, the lack of golf architectural knowledge in Quebec is bordering phenomenal... when people wants to reproduce stuff they have seen on a crappy course in Myrtle Beach, you're in deep trouble.


Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2009, 10:30:47 AM »
Chris's story just does not happen in America. Maybe in Canada or Lawenceville Ill.
Anthony

Rubbish.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2009, 10:32:41 AM »
Anthony- I quite often post and try and state from a UK perspective, climates and budgets mean some things we cant do, for instance in the UK we cant keep out Poa. We operate on tiny grounds crew, some small clubs might only have 2 or 3 greenstaff whilst some of the bigger courses (top 100) might have 5! Many UK courses perhaps 90% do not have irrigation on fairways we rely on the sky. Our membership clubs here are cheap in comparison to American clubs, I think here (although it is getting far less) golfers are more likely to be members of a club, In the US you can play some good pay and play courses for reasonable value.

  Adrain,

  Thanks for your input. The US does water fairways too much. It lessons the weather variable which I think violates the roots of golf.

  Thanks..... Anthony


Anthony- I don't think its a case of "the US water too much". Climate is the key and almost all superintendents are aware of the need to use as little water as possible, its the key to keeping the grass alive. The "need" is so much more in the US and as mentioned its a big place hence the need may severaltimes more in Florida than in Washington.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Anthony Gray

Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 10:35:45 AM »
Chris's story just does not happen in America. Maybe in Canada or Lawenceville Ill.
Anthony

Rubbish.



 OK Jim...Maybe not Lawnceville.

  Anthony


Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2009, 10:49:35 AM »
Anthony,

I witnessed three similar acts this past weekend of players w/tee times asking others w/out tee times to join them.

Chris' was a nice story, but not unusual.


 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Anthony Gray

Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2009, 10:59:41 AM »
Anthony,

I witnessed three similar acts this past weekend of players w/tee times asking others w/out tee times to join them.

Chris' was a nice story, but not unusual.


 

  JIm,

  I think it is more about life long friendships. On my first trip to Scotland I met a family and have been their guest for the past ten years. I have met few people other than caddies that I have maintained friendships with on trips in the US. There is a difference in the cultures amoung golfers. Thanks for your input. Can you tell a difference from your traveling experiences?

  Respectfully

  Anthony


Michael Whitaker

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 11:07:22 AM »
The biggest difference I have observed in the golf culture in the US vs the UK is the nearly total focus on INDIVIDUAL SCORE in the US. In the UK the emphasis is on the GAME or MATCH... here it is all about "what did you shoot."

This point was struck home for me on my first visit to St Andrews. On the walk to the pub after my round on The Old Course, with my clubs on my shoulder, I passed a good number of locals who asked, "did you enjoy your game?" When I arrived at the Dunvegan I ran into several Americans who immediately asked, "what did you shoot?"

To me, that says it all.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Josh Stevens

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 11:49:21 AM »
There is I think, at least at the top end clubs, the British dislike of showing off.  This is translated into clubs and courses in which we see a preference for all things to be somewhat low key.  Clubs in general dont have huge entrance signs, clubhouses tend to be rather modest and in keeping with the local architecture, greenkeeping is kept to the bare minimum to provide an adequate surface and the architecutral style, while clearly not against some outrageous undulations, has to look natural.  Flashy joints such as  Wentworth are sneered at by the Berkshire and Swinley crowd.

Will MacEwen

Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2009, 12:01:29 PM »
I would be more interested in the differences between the US and Canada.

When I play in the US I find way more good balls than in Canada.


Bill_McBride

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2009, 12:26:14 PM »
After we were washed out Memorial Day by a deluge on the 14th fairway, I could have really used a drying room.

Good luck finding a drying room in the US.  Every club in the UK has one.

The beer is better in the UK.

Nobody says, "It's just not fair" in the UK - except Americans.

Jed Peters

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2009, 12:32:49 PM »
There is I think, at least at the top end clubs, the British dislike of showing off.  This is translated into clubs and courses in which we see a preference for all things to be somewhat low key.  Clubs in general dont have huge entrance signs, clubhouses tend to be rather modest and in keeping with the local architecture, greenkeeping is kept to the bare minimum to provide an adequate surface and the architecutral style, while clearly not against some outrageous undulations, has to look natural.  Flashy joints such as  Wentworth are sneered at by the Berkshire and Swinley crowd.

The more prestige the club has in the USA, the less pretentious or "flashy" that it is--at least, that's my experience.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2009, 12:40:55 PM »

Difference in culture - I expect so.

However, like Pat Craig I would be more interested in the differences between Canada & GB&I. I would also say between English and Scottish clubs.

We are all different, some just like to shape the game to their way of playing, some like the enjoyment and challenge, others need to win at any cost, but many more just want an easy time.

However, I wonder if all this is actually good for golf. Well let’s look a Football (not American). Europe, South America, Africa and Asia all play the same game. In general, there is very little regional variation, some spend more time on skill and slower play, others different skills based upon a faster game, yet all play in different environments but on the same size course. It’s also applicable in Athletics, Rugby, Cricket, & Tennis. 

Why is golf different, why is golf allowed to be different? Is it that the difference in culture only affects golf? No, I do not accept that for one moment, a football proves the culture difference. So what is it?   

Melvyn

Anthony Gray

Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2009, 12:46:36 PM »


  Melvyn,

  Nice football analogy. Are footbal fans different from country to country?

  Anthony


Will Peterson

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2009, 12:51:29 PM »
I found the golf culture in the UK superior to that in the US.  When I arrived in the UK I had no idea what to expect in regards to golf, all I knew is that I wanted to play some links golf, but what I found was amazing.

The attitude was completely different that what I was accustomed to in the US.  The club was very welcoming and made me feel right at home.  I only knew one person in the UK that played golf before I joined, but after I was never short of a game and was welcomed into regular games that had been running for 20+ years.  As a low handicap player, I find many people in the US are nervous to play with me, but I did not find that at all in the UK.  People take their handicaps very seriously, and actually play to them.  I found the matches much closer than at home, which leads me to believe that the handicaps were more accurate (although there were still the notorious bandits at the club).  I really enjoyed that fact that all the clubs I visited were golf clubs, no pool, no tennis courts, no gyms and all the other non-sense that is pervasive in the US.  You were there to golf, maybe a drink or dinner and some snooker afterward, but that was it.  I found that the average British golfer has a better appreciation for the game.  They seem to respect good play and realize what is good and what is not.

Although some may say that the clubs are a bit stuffier, with stricter dress codes (the longer socks rule with shorts at many clubs still boggles my mind) and more formal rules, I liked to sense of tradition that it created.  Even with all the rules, the clubs were much more welcoming.  I was able to play so many great courses with a phone call or email, something that is nearly impossible in the US (I understand some of it may have to do with taxes).

There seemed to be much more of a group mentality among the players.  There was always a small wager and you always played with a partner.  Everyone was included and everyone participated.  It was more about the outcome of the match than about what you shot.  The use of Stableford and partner games allowed for players to not even finish a hole if they were completely out of it (a great help to pace and to confidence, just picking up and not having to write down a large number made the next hole seem easier).  This attitude seems to be more akin to that of earlier golf.  It was about the match, not the score.  That is completely unheard of in the US.  Even if you play a match play game, nearly everyone will still keep their score.

We all know about the pace issue.  It was great in Britain.  I think much of it has to do with the fact that socializing and drinking was saved for after the round.  In the US, the average golf will plan on spending 5-7 hours on a round of golf (getting there, warm-up, playing, a drink, getting home), and they plan to spend the majority of it on the course.  In the UK, I think the time is about the same, but they plan to spend 3-4 playing and the rest in the 19th with their playing companions.  A question that I would pose to US golfers, is it not more fun, enjoyable, relaxing, etc to socialize in the comfort of the clubhouse than while trying to play?

I have been lucky enough to grow up on and play finely conditioned courses in the US.  I did notice that the conditions were not the same in the UK, but it did not bother me.  I found that my ball sat well in the fairways and rolled true on the greens, what else do you need?  It did not matter that it did not look perfect.  The fact that the course changed throughout the year with the seasons was also exciting.  The different shots that were require, and the different strategies that each hole needed made each round exciting and new.  Too many courses play the same each and every time out, and therefore become boring quickly.  

The only drawback I have found was upon returning the US after nearly two years.  I thought the type of golf culture that exists in the UK was a thing of the past, but know that I have experienced it I want it here which is a bit of a longshot.  Hopefully I can return soon.

Rich Goodale

Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2009, 12:53:05 PM »
1.  You can walk up and play all but a handful of courses in the UK
2.  You are far more likely to meet locals who are copasetic with the principles and etiquette of golf.
3.  As Anthony and Chris have said, you often receive hospitality that is overwhelming.  I made 20+ lifelong friends (at at least 3 different villlages) from my first visit to Scotland in 1978.  Many of those 20+ friendships were forged at one all night Silver Wedding party that started in a hotel bar and ended up at the celebrants' house.  On my first visit to England, a member at Rye asked me to join him and 2 others in an afternoon foursomes and then took me back to meet his family and have dinner.  After dinner he took me to his garage and showed me a barrel full of old hickories, demanding that I choose one as a gift.  Etc., etc., etc. ad elysium......
4.  Bets rarely exceed 1£ and are often forgotten.
5.  The apres golf is far superior, unless you are averse to beverages and camaraderie.
6.  The clubs are far more egalitarian--the staff are normally members too.
7.  The dress style (shabby chic) is better.
8.  Clubs are normally named after the town (or local area) they inhabit, which generally leads to a deeper sort of affliation and pride with the club than I experienced in America
9.  Handicaps are based on competitions, not informal rounds with your pals.
10.The bar wenches are less beautiful but more accessible.

I'm sure there are more....

Rich

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2009, 01:02:15 PM »
Funny, I've never played in the Isles, but I've noticed the following--

1. Many things people complain about the american game do not exist in a higher-end golf club setting; i.e. I play mostly all match play, always with a wager of some kind, and the match matters more than the score.
2. The higher end the US club, the least pretentious that it is
3. "Gentlemanly" behavior is prevalent at the clubs I play mostly.

First off, there's those who "play golf" and those who are "golfers". I don't care where you are, "golfers" act relatively the same.

Sean_A

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2009, 01:14:26 PM »
The things I notice which are very different:

1. Course conditions are often very scratchy in the UK.  Often times this is for the better, but it does cross the line sometimes.

2. It is very much a walking culture over here.

3. Golf is completely centered around clubs.  There are relatively few public courses, but that shouldn't be surprising since most privates allow visitor play.

4. There are far more comps in the UK.  Again, sometimes this is good and sometimes its bad.  One good aspect is handicapping is based on competitive scores.

5. UK clubs are for the most part far leaner and meaner than the US counterparts.  They spend much less on the course and club and hence membership is affordable.  Mind you, many Brits don't know how good they have it.

6. Brits tend to go out in all sorts of shit weather just because a game is organized.  This is one aspect of British culture I certainly don't like even though I don't mind playing in cold and wind.  Its the rain I hate. 

Ciao

« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 01:19:17 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rob Rigg

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Re: Differences in Golf Culture.....US/UK
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2009, 01:27:21 PM »
The culture in the UK is obviously a walking one.

I also think the culture in the UK, certainly from my experience in Ireland, is more "welcoming", especially in terms of clubs

If you play an open week tournament in Ireland you may find yourself playing with a banker, a shop keeper and a farmer, all of whom will be gentleman who are great to play a round with. In Ireland, golf is not a male dominated sport - many many women play, and juniors of both sexes are encouraged to participate. In the US, the participation of women and kids is often a direct correlation to one's tax bracket.

The culture in the US is obviously split between carts and walking, with a continued shift towards carts.
For some reason, many golfers in the US have a need to drink alcohol, smoke cigars or chew tobacco while playing. The golf course is more of an escape from the home than anything else. Part of this type of golf culture is due to carts which reduce the game from a wonderful walk to taking a puff, taking a swig, and then wandering over to your ball to hit it before driving up to the green with little regards to what you are driving past.

When you speak of "golf culture" there will also be broad generalizations and there are always exceptions to the rule.

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