[Mike Sweeney]

As has been mentioned here before, I hold an International Membership at Enniscrone. Back in the day, I paid a one time fee with no annuals. The number of members at Enniscrone is around 900 I think. Not so in the US but we may be moving in that direction. I just received an email from The Prairie Club which signed up 100 Founders for $12,000 in a pretty tough economic climate:

https://app.e2ma.net/app/view:CampaignPublic/id:27606.2046383635/rid:2fda175abf7d870c64a034a4fcbf3670

I personally do not like to be tied down to just one club because when you have the big nut to pay every year, you feel like you have to use the club and not play other places. Hopefully the concept of "exclusivity" relaxes in the next generation of clubs.

[Anthony Gray]

1.  You can walk up and play all but a handful of courses in the UK
2.  You are far more likely to meet locals who are copasetic with the principles and etiquette of golf.
3.  As Anthony and Chris have said, you often receive hospitality that is overwhelming.  I made 20+ lifelong friends (at at least 3 different villlages) from my first visit to Scotland in 1978.  Many of those 20+ friendships were forged at one all night Silver Wedding party that started in a hotel bar and ended up at the celebrants' house.  On my first visit to England, a member at Rye asked me to join him and 2 others in an afternoon foursomes and then took me back to meet his family and have dinner.  After dinner he took me to his garage and showed me a barrel full of old hickories, demanding that I choose one as a gift.  Etc., etc., etc. ad elysium......
4.  Bets rarely exceed 1£ and are often forgotten.
5.  The apres golf is far superior, unless you are averse to beverages and camaraderie.
6.  The clubs are far more egalitarian--the staff are normally members too.
7.  The dress style (shabby chic) is better.
8.  Clubs are normally named after the town (or local area) they inhabit, which generally leads to a deeper sort of affliation and pride with the club than I experienced in America
9.  Handicaps are based on competitions, not informal rounds with your pals.
10.The bar wenches are less beautiful but more accessible.

I'm sure there are more....

Rich

  Rich,

  I have been waitng for your input...Thanks. The clubs just seem to be more charming. I have never (other than Kingsbarns of late) felt that the UK clubs were there for profit. I have always felt like a welcomed guest and not an outsider. And you always leave looking foward to your next trip back.

  Thanks,

  Anthony

[David_Tepper]

Once while playing Golspie (north of Dornoch) as a single, I was waved thru by 2 women playing in front of me. One of the women was playing and pushing her 1-year old baby around the course in a stroller. That is something I don't think you would ever see on a course in the U.S.!

[Dan Herrmann]

I personally do not like to be tied down to just one club because when you have the big nut to pay every year, you feel like you have to use the club and not play other places. Hopefully the concept of "exclusivity" relaxes in the next generation of clubs.

Mike,
I used to belong to a club in Portland, OR.  We used to have a very generous local reciprocity policy - whenever we were closed for a tournament, we had 2-3 tee times available at just about every other local club.  It was great!  Too bad we don't have that here in Philly.  I'm not looking to get on PV, but it would be great to play a place like Stonewall, Wilmington, Manny's or Philly CC (or any other GAP club) once every 5-10 years.

[Anthony Gray]

Once while playing Golspie (north of Dornoch) as a single, I was waved thru by 2 women playing in front of me. One of the women was playing and pushing her 1-year old baby around the course in a stroller. That is something I don't think you would ever see on a course in the U.S.!

  That screams out culture David.

  Anthony

[Jaeger Kovich]

I just got back from my first real UK golf trip. I think the walking and the indifference/welcoming of the weather are the two most obvious differences.

Aside from that, the biggest difference I saw was with the caddies... I'm a caddy and after playing 8 rounds at 5 different courses, I think one of the biggest cultural differences is the way the caddies are treated. First, they only get one bag at a time. This was the case at all of the courses. Two of the caddies in Scotland when asked how they came to their course, answered that they "loved being in customer relations".... Back here in the US, that idea of customer relations never even occurred to me, and not a single other caddy I have come in contact with here has answered that question like that. US caddies, from what I have seen, are there for the $$$, nothing more, nothing less. They feel that not only does it pay well, but its just a simple, easy way where they can make a buck without having to work to hard. Of course there are those, like myself and a few others at my club, that caddy because they love the game, they love to be outside and really get into the team aspect of the sport, but in general I found the UK caddies to be far more capable and infinitely happier with calling themselves a caddy.

[Bradley Anderson]

What I find most interesting is the fact that there are almost no sod wall bunkers in America.

[PCCraig]

I just got back from my first real UK golf trip. I think the walking and the indifference/welcoming of the weather are the two most obvious differences.

Aside from that, the biggest difference I saw was with the caddies... I'm a caddy and after playing 8 rounds at 5 different courses, I think one of the biggest cultural differences is the way the caddies are treated. First, they only get one bag at a time. This was the case at all of the courses. Two of the caddies in Scotland when asked how they came to their course, answered that they "loved being in customer relations".... Back here in the US, that idea of customer relations never even occurred to me, and not a single other caddy I have come in contact with here has answered that question like that. US caddies, from what I have seen, are there for the $$$, nothing more, nothing less. They feel that not only does it pay well, but its just a simple, easy way where they can make a buck without having to work to hard. Of course there are those, like myself and a few others at my club, that caddy because they love the game, they love to be outside and really get into the team aspect of the sport, but in general I found the UK caddies to be far more capable and infinitely happier with calling themselves a caddy.

That's an interesting take Jaeger.

I can't speak for every club, but it seems that in the States caddying is more of a young mans profession (ages 12-20) while overseas it is a lifetime profession for many. While there are clubs that have lifelong loopers in the states...they are more far and few between.

In the UK, caddies tend to be more of a "guide" around the course, while there tends to be a servent mindset amoung caddies in the states.

[Anthony Gray]

I just got back from my first real UK golf trip. I think the walking and the indifference/welcoming of the weather are the two most obvious differences.

Aside from that, the biggest difference I saw was with the caddies... I'm a caddy and after playing 8 rounds at 5 different courses, I think one of the biggest cultural differences is the way the caddies are treated. First, they only get one bag at a time. This was the case at all of the courses. Two of the caddies in Scotland when asked how they came to their course, answered that they "loved being in customer relations".... Back here in the US, that idea of customer relations never even occurred to me, and not a single other caddy I have come in contact with here has answered that question like that. US caddies, from what I have seen, are there for the $$$, nothing more, nothing less. They feel that not only does it pay well, but its just a simple, easy way where they can make a buck without having to work to hard. Of course there are those, like myself and a few others at my club, that caddy because they love the game, they love to be outside and really get into the team aspect of the sport, but in general I found the UK caddies to be far more capable and infinitely happier with calling themselves a caddy.

That's an interesting take Jaeger.

I can't speak for every club, but it seems that in the States caddying is more of a young mans profession (ages 12-20) while overseas it is a lifetime profession for many. While there are clubs that have lifelong loopers in the states...they are more far and few between.

In the UK, caddies tend to be more of a "guide" around the course, while there tends to be a servent mindset amoung caddies in the states.

  12 year old caddies?  Truth?

  Anthony

[PCCraig]

I just got back from my first real UK golf trip. I think the walking and the indifference/welcoming of the weather are the two most obvious differences.

Aside from that, the biggest difference I saw was with the caddies... I'm a caddy and after playing 8 rounds at 5 different courses, I think one of the biggest cultural differences is the way the caddies are treated. First, they only get one bag at a time. This was the case at all of the courses. Two of the caddies in Scotland when asked how they came to their course, answered that they "loved being in customer relations".... Back here in the US, that idea of customer relations never even occurred to me, and not a single other caddy I have come in contact with here has answered that question like that. US caddies, from what I have seen, are there for the $$$, nothing more, nothing less. They feel that not only does it pay well, but its just a simple, easy way where they can make a buck without having to work to hard. Of course there are those, like myself and a few others at my club, that caddy because they love the game, they love to be outside and really get into the team aspect of the sport, but in general I found the UK caddies to be far more capable and infinitely happier with calling themselves a caddy.

That's an interesting take Jaeger.

I can't speak for every club, but it seems that in the States caddying is more of a young mans profession (ages 12-20) while overseas it is a lifetime profession for many. While there are clubs that have lifelong loopers in the states...they are more far and few between.

In the UK, caddies tend to be more of a "guide" around the course, while there tends to be a servent mindset amoung caddies in the states.

  12 year old caddies?  Truth?

  Anthony

At Chicago area clubs? Sure...that's when they start doing a single bag here and there...going into 7th grade or so.

[Cristian]

* In the UK there are no courses where walking is NOT allowed

* Many courses, including many of the countries best in the UK (RSG. Lytham, Walton Heath among others) are crossed by public footpaths where people let out their dog or go for a walk; it's never a problem as everybody, including non golfers tend to have reasonable knowledge of the game (Fore etc). This latter point illustrates, I think, how much golf is part of everyday life in the UK.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Pat/Craig - Caddying can definitely be a young man's job. I got my first loop the summer before I started college at 18, and that club I work out now we have a number of "kids" mostly high-school age (14-18). Some of the veteran caddies claim to have started there chasing range balls and looping single bags at 13. The majority of our caddies though are "men" between the ages of 25-55.

In the UK this past week, out of more than a dozen caddies in my various groups, only one was younger than myself. He was 19 and played off a 2 handicap. Most were over 50. Half of them had looped on different tours. And almost all of them were scratch at one point. I play off a 9, and I'm in the top 3 players at my club.

As for being a more of a guide... I completely agree, but you have to remember TOC, Carnoustie and some of the other Royals and Ancients are 1/2 golf course and 1/2 tourist attraction. They know how to read greens, rake bunkers and pull clubs, but they are also required to know the history of the place and also play photographer on 1/2 the holes.... I couldn't help but laugh every time one of my loopers would hand me my camera on the walk to the next tee and say "You are gonna need this!"... the only place I have seen anything remotely similar was at Bandon, and thats only because I got it out of him with my caddy stories!

Cristian - I couldn't agree more with your point about the footpaths... Take TOC for example. Before I even teed off on #1, the caddies were screaming FORE as all sorts of people just strolled across the road with no concern for little white balls flying over their heads. At some of the other courses I saw hiking trails winding around and through various holes. Someone was also telling me about a course in Sweden wear on bird watchers have the right away! In the US this wouldn't fly!!

[Stan Dodd]

One difference that I notice, is in common courtesy.  In Scotland if  a group thinks they may have to look for a ball they promptly wave the group behind through.  In the US it takes an act of Congress for a group to wave someone through.  I have been waved through by many groups in Scotland without any delay.
I was working as a course marshall and the first group of the day, foursome in carts, was holding up a threesome of walkers. I suggestted they let the group play through at the next hole, a par three.  They looked at  me like I was insane (I maybe but that another story).  The foursome hit Tee shots  and all missed the green into greenside bunkers.  Again I asked to let the group through.  They ran hit crappy shots ran to their balls and slapped a couple of putts and ran to the next Tee only to hit lackluster shots.  A player then passed me on his way to get his cart and said he didn't think golf was an aerobic sport.  I told him it wouldn't be if they sat for a second and let the group play through.
My generalization is that.... In the US there seems to be a competitive attitude and a bit selfish.  I am only concerned if I have an enjoyalbe day while in the UK it seems there is a concern that everyone has an enjoyable day.

[Rob Rigg]

Stan,

That is a great point. Having learned to golf in Ireland, I am always very wary about holding people. If there is a slow player in my group I start to get a bit nervous if a gap opens up between us and the group ahead and I will usually say something to the group about picking up the pace or waving the group behind through if they are pushing us. Often the player in the group tells me to "FO - because he payed to play the course and he will do so as he damn well pleases."

In the US, letting the group behind through is a sign of weakness or something. It is an admission that you are not as good as the people behind you. It is the ultimate act of golf selfishness, even worse than cheating in a non-tournament round. Why? Cheating only hurts you, while not letting people through or playing very slow impacts everyone on the course behind you.

[Bill_McBride]

1.  You can walk up and play all but a handful of courses in the UK
2.  You are far more likely to meet locals who are copasetic with the principles and etiquette of golf.
3.  As Anthony and Chris have said, you often receive hospitality that is overwhelming.  I made 20+ lifelong friends (at at least 3 different villlages) from my first visit to Scotland in 1978.  Many of those 20+ friendships were forged at one all night Silver Wedding party that started in a hotel bar and ended up at the celebrants' house.  On my first visit to England, a member at Rye asked me to join him and 2 others in an afternoon foursomes and then took me back to meet his family and have dinner.  After dinner he took me to his garage and showed me a barrel full of old hickories, demanding that I choose one as a gift.  Etc., etc., etc. ad elysium......
4.  Bets rarely exceed 1£ and are often forgotten.
5.  The apres golf is far superior, unless you are averse to beverages and camaraderie.
6.  The clubs are far more egalitarian--the staff are normally members too.
7.  The dress style (shabby chic) is better.
8.  Clubs are normally named after the town (or local area) they inhabit, which generally leads to a deeper sort of affliation and pride with the club than I experienced in America
9.  Handicaps are based on competitions, not informal rounds with your pals.
10.The bar wenches are less beautiful but more accessible.

I'm sure there are more....

Rich

Agree with everything above - but please define "accessible."

[Dan Boerger]

I'll offer my thoughts, having just returned from a trip where I played Swinley Forest, Woking, Walton Heath (old) and Betchworth Park.

1 - The pace of play is exceptional. We were playing a two ball and, although we caught a four ball, on WH, we purposely kept our distance and never felt like the round was dragging.

2 - I sure felt welcome. Very gracious professional staffs at all clubs. We didn't really mix with members, but you could definitely tell that "cut glass" upper crust accent at Swinley.

3 - The weather was terrific, so we always had post round drinks on the patio (or what we would call deck). Never have I seen so many golfers drinking in hushed tones. That was a big difference.

4 - Speaking of drink, I could not imagine a cooler full of beer and soda on the course or in the locker room as I have experienced in so many US member-guests. My UK host confirmed he hasn't experienced that either.

5 - At Woking, only two balls were allowed. Seemed odd, but I sure respect the right of any club to do what they want.  I say odd since, as the American capitalist I am, I couldn't help but think of the lost revenue (we were going to be 3 that day).

6 - When I picked up my scorecard I asked for a pencil and was charged 20 P. If my accent didn't already give me away the surprised look in my eye defined me as an American at that point! (Maybe this is how they pick up some of that lost revenue I was thinking about earlier.)

7 - These were top tier courses, but none had much in the way of practice facilities (save for the best putting green on the planet at Walton Heath).

8 - I REALLY enjoyed how walking, not riding, is the standard and wish that wold be embraced in these United States (but I'm no social utopian so I'm not going to hold my breath.)

 - Dan

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

but please define "accessible."  Whilst I cannot speak for Rich, I would hazard a guess that it means the clubs will also accept ‘YOU’ i.e. Royal Dornoch.


Dan

The name of the Game is Golf;  The purpose of the Game of Golf is to have fun. By sharing our fun, we are happy to embrace fellow golfers.

PS I would happly pay £20 a pencil if it meant no carts But on a more serious note walking just re-connected you with the game of golf.

Melvyn

[Troy Alderson]

Speaking of the climate difference, let us all remember that the UK is equivalent to Juneau AK in latitude.  Nothing in the US comes close to the weather pattern of the UK though there can be similarities.  The UK can not water the fairways because the weather will rarely get hot enough to kill the turf, the turf goes dormant.  The UK does not have desserts to grow a golf course in, the UK does not have high elevations to grow a golf course in, the US does.

That is why I like UK golf better, less extremes.  I am sure some gentlemen from the UK on this site may disagree and they are right if they do, because I have not been there, just internet surfing.

Got to get to work now,

Troy

[David Druzisky]

for those of you in the UK.

Would you say you experience things a little differently between the seaside courses and those inland?  How about older vs. newer?

How about at Turnberry where Troon Golf Manages?

[Rich Goodale]

Troy

Just to clarify.

The far north of the UK (e.g. Dornoch) is roughly at the latitude of Juneau (~58 degrees), but the ar South (e.g. Cornwall) is more equivalent Vancouver (~50) and London equivalent to Calgary (51-52).  UK courses, from Dornoch to Cornwall, can and do water their fairways.  The overall climate of the UK is fairly similar to northwest coast of the USA (say Monterrey to Seattle).  Due to the Gulf Stream the climate is temperate (between 40-80 degrees F on all but a few days a year).  Here in Fife, palm trees flourish.

Hope this helps.

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

but please define "accessible."  Whilst I cannot speak for Rich, I would hazard a guess that it means the clubs will also accept ‘YOU’ i.e. Royal Dornoch.

Melvyn, I was referring to Rich's comment that the bar wenches were "accessible."

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

Many are married but in this day and age that may still mean ‘Accessible’

I am ‘Accessible’ until my wife find's out, then I’m in the dog house and grounded for a month with no Saturday treats for a while. But then what’s new, when will someone invent a headache pill that works on females.

Melvyn

[Troy Alderson]

Troy

Just to clarify.

The far north of the UK (e.g. Dornoch) is roughly at the latitude of Juneau (~58 degrees), but the ar South (e.g. Cornwall) is more equivalent Vancouver (~50) and London equivalent to Calgary (51-52).  UK courses, from Dornoch to Cornwall, can and do water their fairways.  The overall climate of the UK is fairly similar to northwest coast of the USA (say Monterrey to Seattle).  Due to the Gulf Stream the climate is temperate (between 40-80 degrees F on all but a few days a year).  Here in Fife, palm trees flourish.

Hope this helps.

Rich

Rich,

Thank you for the clarification.  I understood that the UK was equal in latitude as Vancouver BC to Juneau AK, just making a point.  Most US golf courses are farther south in latitude than the UK and thus will require more water throughout the year.  I know of only two golf courses on the Oregon coast that does not water fariways, Alderbrook and Nescowin.  I like the idea of dormant fairways during the summer months and wish more golf courses in temperate climate would stop watering unless turf kill is eminent.

Troy

[Michael Dugger]

Micro vs macro

Every club is different.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

As a transplant on these Colonial shores, I feel as though I can comment on the game on both sides of the Atlantic.
To start with Sean And Rich, seem to have just about everything convered.
That been said....I do miss good practice facilities that most of the clubs in the UK do not have.
This is mainly due to their age  and being bulit before people card about that portion of the game.

Having played in top level amatuer events on both sides of the Atlantic, the biggest difference is pace of play.
I can remember playing in the 36 hole a day prestige amateur events at home with a 4.5 hours time difference between first and last round...and had plenty of time for a huge lunch.
In this country...even in carts we struggle to get around in that much time.

I agree that it is much cheaper to be  member of clubs in the UK...but they dont appreciate that..they think it is too expensive!


No FIVE balls in the Uk thank god...I cringe when I see that on my home course her...and NO JEANS either...I appreciate that is a southern thing.
Here I am at a Langford/Moreau golf course and friggin' jeans are allowed!!!!!

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