The sound of Persimmon

[Anthony Gray]

  I had the great pleasure to entertain fellow GCAer Steve Salmen at my home course on Memorial Day. Steve showed up ready for an enjoyable round of golf. He was accompanied by his vintage Macgregor leather bag containing 70's blades and persimmon woods. He preceded to outdrive the other golfers with a driver no bigger than my fist.

  I have become so used to correlating the "ting" of a well struck metal driver to a long drive that when Steve made contact with his persimmon driver the dull sound had my mind telling me "that is going nowhere". The sound and the result did not make since in my mind.

  Is part of the joy from metal woods the sound?

  Have metal woods been good for the game?

  Should Steve get three labs or one camel as pets/pet?

  Anthony

 

[Eric Smith]

Thinking back to 23-25 yrs ago when playing high school golf, I still remember that sound and the feeling of how solidly contact felt using my persimmon 3 wood and a club special or balata off the tee.   The steering capabilities with the tee ball were mind boggling compared to the game I now know, though I could duck hook it with the best of em too.

Watching tour pros hit their metal drivers...now that sound is awesome.

Steve if you're reading, I owe you a day of golf after you get back from Scotland.  Have a great summer!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Persimmon, now those were the days, when Darius was King of Persia and at home in his magnificent palace complex at Persimmon or I believe some spell it Persepolis.

Alas it is no more, the great days of Persimmon (Persepolis) are now well behind us, lost in the mists of time, only the old diggers (sand dwellers from
The Dunes) seem to remember the name. Lost to all who care not for the history of the Golfing world, but they are the worst for the lack of memory and interest.

Some remember the war cries of the Golfi, that brave but forlorn group who attached the 18 with just a scream as they ran from Persimmon. Their bones are still being unearthed in some of the larger bunkers scattered around the region of Persimmon. Old legends survive saying that many heard the screams of Darius when he learnt that the Persimmon was no more, followed by the cry “A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse”.

History records he never got his horse, but no mention of the final fate of Persimmons, some say it was burnt to the ground by a young up and coming
lad knows as Alexander ‘Hole in One’ or The Greek, others say that parts of Persimmon were carted away before the big fire and are in the safe keeping of the some of the “Old Wise Ones”. Being hidden away from the new wilder generations of Golfi who are unfamiliar with the true history of the original Hickory let alone Persimmon.

Anthony, The Persimmons are at the foot of the alter to the Hickori, doomed to server their masters for eternity.     Sorry what was your question???

Melvyn

[Will Peterson]

When I started playing Persimmon was on its way out.  I didn't own a wooden club until last year.  After re-discovering my father's first set of irons (1966ish MacGregor Tourneys), we decided to have a series of matches with clubs that were made before I was born (1980).  I have since adjusted the rules to allow for the set of 1982 Titleist Tour Model irons I found.

The first course we played was a modern layout, and although the Persimmon played nicely it seemed out of place.  When we played a second round at an older, shorter, tree lined course, the Persimmon seemed right at home.  The course seemed to play more as it was meant to, no cutting drastic corners or hitting mid-irons to par 5's.  I found the feel excpetional, eventhough the woods we got were not top of the line, and the feedback immediate, something that many new drivers lack.  I was also surprised at how little the clubs seemed.  Everytime I get a new driver, I think that this is too big and looks ridiculous, but in a few days it looks normal.  Going in reverse was a little scary, and I was very happy to make solid contact with the first few swings.  I will say I did miss watching some towering drives, but greatly enjoyed the challenge of it.  I am old enough to have played balatas, but I can't imagine playing them with the old equipment.

I'm not sure if the game is better off without Persimmon, but for a few rounds a year they are a wonderful treat.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Anthony,
The big headed clubs make it easier for the average player, I wouldn't qualify it as better or worse.

I still have an old Precept TERA driver in the back room from 8,9, maybe 10 years ago. It's made from four individual pieces of forged titanium and it produces a sound that's a near to persimmon as I've ever heard. Some of the older guys fell in love with it for that sound, but the idea never caught on.

Clank is the modern Thwack. 

[Tom_Doak]

I never had a persimmon driver that I really felt confident with, and neither did most players, even good players.  The new metal woods have made the game MUCH easier to the extent that driving the ball is important.

On the other hand, I always had a great deal of confidence in my little persimmon 3-wood, so much so that I've never thrown it out of the bag, it's still in there.  I don't use it that often, but it still feels great when I do, and it's a history lesson for all of our interns who never saw why they call them "woods".

[Peter Wagner]

Ah persimmon!  I was a vintage club collector back in the late 70's / early 80's and the hot stuff was always MacGregor woods from the late 50's / early 60's and Wilson Staff irons from the mid to late 60's.  The market imploded in the mid 80's with the introduction of metal and it ended a very vibrant vintage market.  It was very common for a MacGregor Tommy Armour 693 driver to sell for $450 during the peak time whereas now you can buy all you want for 30 bucks a piece.

There was a cottage industry of club builders and refinishers to bring these clubs back to perfect condition.  The preferred method of selling was to bring a few drivers to a pro tourney on the pro-am day and hold them up as the pros went by.  I saw many sold that way.

Here's a nice shot of some restored MacGregors:  Eye-O-Matic M75, Tommy Armour 693, Eye-O-Matic M85 (L to R)



Better players felt the old persimmon had tighter grain because it came from old growth trees.  All of the old growth was cut down to keep up with demand and the replanted young trees had wider grain.  It was mostly just as hard but everyone wanted the older clubs because of this.

I still have a bunch of these in the garage and I dust them off from time to time and it brings back pleasant memories.

[PThomas]

.On the other hand, I always had a great deal of confidence in my little persimmon 3-wood, so much so that I've never thrown it out of the bag, it's still in there.  I don't use it that often, but it still feels great when I do, and it's a history lesson for all of our interns who never saw why they call them "woods".

reminds me that Nicklaus used that same persimmon 3 wood for DECADES , i believe...his tee shot on the 72nd hole of the 86 Masters was hit with it...a perfect fade!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2009/5/26/campbell-who-swings-like-ben-hogan-managed-a-carry-of-232-ya.html#comments

Click on the link to Bill Nichols article in the Dallas News

[Tim Bert]

I had a driver, 3-wood, 5-wood ping zing wood set.  I'd love to have that driver back to see how I hit it now.  It was never consistent, but my swing has come a long way since then and it would be interesting to see just how much is actually my swing vs. the technology.  While the driver was never my favorite club back then, I did hit the 3-wood and the driver pretty well (again considering the state of my game at that time.)

[DMoriarty]

I've been carrying a 1950-51 Ben Hogan Macgregor 4 Wood for a while, and I it is the best feeling and best sounding club I have ever hit.  I don't always hit it well, but I think I hit it at least as well as the comparable modern club.

While I agree that non-persimmon drivers seem easier to hit, I think bad golfers would be better off with persimmon.   You have to swing the club and cannot just flail at it.   Flailing at it doesn't make you much better.

[Phil_the_Author]

I still use my Pederson persimmon woods given to me as a graduation gift in 1971 by my parents. Screw nostalgia! There is no greater feeling in golf than TRULY hitting a drive on the "screws"!

[Josh Smith]

 I've used a Ram persimmon driver for the last couple of years that I bought when they were phasing woods out when I was 16.  I love the challenge of hitting it, the sound it makes, and the sense of accomplishment when it flies right.  Many of my friends think I am stupid because it is not a strange occurance once or twice a round for me to hit an absolutely terrible hook or slice. 

I guess playing for score is not always my main goal, a lot of times I will take the most fun route. 

I don't understand why the clubs keep getting bigger.  Do we really need heads that big?  Why?  It is about hitting the sweet spot, not just making contact. 

Does anyone have any nice old ones that are collecting dust?     I want to get a couple more.

[Kevin_Reilly]

reminds me that Nicklaus used that same persimmon 3 wood for DECADES , i believe...his tee shot on the 72nd hole of the 86 Masters was hit with it...a perfect fade!

He was still using it in the late 90's...it was in the bag when he demolished Miller at that Shell's match at Olympic.

[Tom Huckaby]

Add me to the persimmon lovers... in fact I'd still have a wonderful Hogan speed slot 3wood in my back if the face hadn't cracked.  Bonb Huntley loved that club... he called it something out of a Victoria's Secret catalog.  Ok, it had a gawd-awful red graphite shaft... talk about ruining purism... but good lord could I hit that club well.  I have yet to find a modern 3wood I have as much confidence with.

As for the sound... wow the click of persimmon beats the clang of metal all day and twice on Sundays.  But my I now feel old.

[Rob Rigg]

You can still find the on ebay - I have a blond Palmer Chattanooga Peerless Persimmon Driver and a cherry Titleist 3 wood - both were refinished so I don't hit them. I'm planning on buying a few more to play with, that aren't all fixed up.

The closest sound I get to a persimmon wood is my 585h hybrid - it has a similar feel and a nice "thwack" to it - not all the way there but fair decent.

If you want to drop some cash, Louisville golf have a few different driver options.

It is usually a good idea to use low compression balls like a Nike Karma or Titleist NXT . . .

[Mike Sweeney]

Add me to the persimmon lovers... in fact I'd still have a wonderful Hogan speed slot 3wood in my back if the face hadn't cracked.  Bonb Huntley loved that club... he called it something out of a Victoria's Secret catalog. 

The Persimmon driver has long ago been replaced with a titanium graphite driver, but I still had to endure the cost of lunch at:



after being beaten badly by the window dressing Persimmon 3 wood playing Mr. Moore over the weekend at Cape Arundel GC in Maine.

He is still the only Amateur in Maine playing a 2 iron, but that 3 wood does not see the course too often!

[Cristian]

Bernhard Langer used a persimmon driver until at least the late 90's. Didn't he even win a tour event (Italian Open) with it as late as 1997? I think until fairly recently he still used it on and off. Anybody know when is the last time somebody used one on tour?

[John Keenan]

I played Gleneagles a few weeks ago with my son and son in law. The starter added a a single to our group. He was  mid to late 20's and had just moved o the Bay Area from Dallas. Mid way into the round on a long par 4 he took the head cover off one his woods for a shot and low and behold it was an Orlimar 3 wood which he hit on the screws. I complimented his excellent shot and then noted the wood. It was an Orlimar 3 wood which was his grandmothers and he liked having it in the bag and felt he always would carry it.  He used it on the 9th an uphill rather daunting hole and hit the green on his second with the Orlimar.I am quite sure his Grandmother would be quite proud of his shot and even more so that he caries her club.

   

[Steve_ Shaffer]

DL3 was the last to use a wood driver on the PGAT.

[PThomas]

DL3 was the last to use a wood driver on the PGAT.

i think long-hitting  Justin Leonard was one of the last holdouts too...i wonder how much farther he hits todays clubs than his old wood wood?

[Troy Alderson]

Persimmon, now those were the days, when Darius was King of Persia and at home in his magnificent palace complex at Persimmon or I believe some spell it Persepolis.

Alas it is no more, the great days of Persimmon (Persepolis) are now well behind us, lost in the mists of time, only the old diggers (sand dwellers from The Dunes) seem to remember the name. Lost to all who care not for the history of the Golfing world, but they are the worst for the lack of memory and interest.

Melvyn

Melvyn,

the days are not over yet.  http://www.louisvillegolf.com/  This is where you can yet again acquire Persimmon woods and hickory sticks.

Troy

[Anthony Butler]

The 510 TP from Taylor Made gives the closest 'persimmon' sound of any titanium wood. The 975D was also quite muted. The heads are too big and the walls too thin on the current crop of drivers.

You can can always stuff cotton wool into the head of unshafted driver to mute the sound. Approximately 6 grams of cotton should produce the desired (sound) effect. If you're not holding a TM MWT Driver, you'll have to trim the shaft length by at least 1/2" to keep the same swingweight.

[Steve Salmen]

I'd like to thank Anthony for being a gracious host at his club.  I had a great day.

As for persimmon, I think it affects the better players less than worse players.  That being said, shorter hitters will not be able to reach some of the trouble that is in play with the wooden club.  Initially when I used the older clubs, I would also use Titleist Professional balls to complement them.  I have had the Professionals about 10 years and they were already probably a few years old.  I don't know much about golf ball shelf life so maybe someone can help me out here.

A very good drive with my Titleist 905s and a Pro V1x travels 280-285 yards.  The best drive with the Macgregor Muirfield went 235 yds.  The best drive with the Muirfield and a Pro V1x went about 260.  It's humbling using a driver with a clubhead smaller than that of today's 3 woods.  I like it because it makes you concentrate more off the tee.  I have the ability to drive it way left or right.  I will usually snap hook the new club.

I take them out a few times a year, but I may use them regularly in Dornoch.  The course is usually firm and fast and not very long.

Thanks again Anthony for a great day of golf.

[PCCraig]

Those mint condition Persimmon woods really look wonderful and flawless.

But playing a 7200 yard monster with them would make for a long day.