[Paul Carey]

I have not played enough to comment (and boy is that a novel concept for this site ).  Any thoughts?

http://www.golfweek.com/lifestyles/story/golfweeks-best-munis-052509

[Bill_McBride]

Congratulations to Forrest Richardson who has two high on that list - #10 Olivas Links and #23 Hideout. 

I'm surprised Soule Park in Ojai isn't mentioned, what a fun place that was for the Kings Putter's first round.

[Ray Richard]

I'd add Cranberry Valley, Harwich,Mass. to the list. It's a stern Geof Cornish design that recently got a new irrigation system and a complete bunker renovation.

[Garland Bayley]

Clearly Golfweek doesn't know what they are talking about.

Tell my why these are not in the top 15, let alone missing the list altogether.

Juniper Golf Course is a publicly-owned golf course located in the Central Oregon community of Redmond, Oregon.

Dramatically sculpted into the Pacific Northwest splendor, the Olympic course has garnered impressive awards and has taken its place  as one of the America's finest municipally owned golf courses.

[PCCraig]

Thunderhawk is a very very good muni in the Far North Burbs of Chicago.

Likewise for Village Greens in the west.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

The update Brackenridge Park in San Antonio is WAY too low.  I thought it was a very high quality course.  I much prefer it to #12 Memorial Park here in Houston.

[Richard Choi]

I have to say that I am with Garland and bit surprised why the Olympic Course at Gold Mountain did not make the list while Indian Canyon did...

[Mike_Cirba]

It's pretty sad that Cobb's Creek is not even on that list.

For a course that was generally acknowledged as the greatest public course in the country until the mid 30s when Bethpage Black was created, it's a long way down.

The potential there is SOOO much greater;  hopefully it will be realized again someday.

[Doug Wright]

Nice to see that Pinon Hills (Ken Dye), one of the bellwhethers of extremely affordable and good golf (ie value) continues to be so well recognized. It's certainly in lofty company at #4.

17. Aspen Golf Club  Aspen, Colo.     This is very surprising to me. I've never played it. Numerous drive-bys led me to believe this was a flat, boring, uninteresting etc. course. Am I wrong?

[PCCraig]

It's pretty sad that Cobb's Creek is not even on that list.

For a course that was generally acknowledged as the greatest public course in the country until the mid 30s when Bethpage Black was created, it's a long way down.

The potential there is SOOO much greater;  hopefully it will be realized again someday.

Mike-

I understand your relationship with Cobb's Creek and your plan is a very cool one...but do you really think that if someone just played the course (without knowing the history) would rank it higher than many of the courses on the list?

Or were you just speaking to potential?

[Matt_Ward]

Doug W:

You are not wrong -- your impressions are quite accurate.

There are other Colorado courses that could have been pushed into the picturs. Devil's Thumb in Delta, CO is a great example because it's a bonafide muni with very reasonable fees. One can also make a case for a few of the layouts run by the City of Aurora.

Pat Craig:

If Cobbs Creek were truly embraced by the City of Philadelphia and an investment was made -- not akin to BB mind you -- but one of real sustained involvements then the course could truly be included.

The real issue with the muni issue for me is when you throw into the picture the deep-pocket cost layouts. Muni golf should highlight those places which don't cost triple digit fees to play them.

[Buck Wolter]

Not to pick nits but is Bethpage really a municipal? Isn't that like calling the RTJ trail a bunch of munis? I can see a county like Chambers Bay being included but not a State run operation. Should Morfar be included now that the feds own AIG?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

We've been through this before concerning the definition of a muni. If a government owns the course, it's a muni-state,county, city, township...

[Buck Wolter]

We've been through this before concerning the definition of a muni. If a government owns the course, it's a muni-state,county, city, township...

I disagree with that definition -- A state is not a municipality

[Mark Arata]

I'd add Cranberry Valley, Harwich,Mass. to the list. It's a stern Geof Cornish design that recently got a new irrigation system and a complete bunker renovation.

I will second this......I love Cranberry Valley, the Captains as well......

For some reason I thought the town of Moorpark had a piece of Rustic Canyon, I guess I was mistaken.......

[Steve Lapper]

Nice to see that Pinon Hills (Ken Dye), one of the bellwhethers of extremely affordable and good golf (ie value) continues to be so well recognized. It's certainly in lofty company at #4.

17. Aspen Golf Club  Aspen, Colo.     This is very surprising to me. I've never played it. Numerous drive-bys led me to believe this was a flat, boring, uninteresting etc. course. Am I wrong?

Doug,

    I too was surprised by this inclusion, but in hindsight, there is a good deal of merit for some measure of recognition, if not such a lofty perch on the rating list. Of course, I am biased, having won the 1998 Aspen City championship (with an unconscious 69 final round, including a quad bogey,...but that's a whole n'other story). The terrain there is indeed mostly flat...until you arrive at the greens. They are(were) pure poa.... canted, slanted, pushed up, crowned, and putting everyone on full-tilt when shaved tight. Imagine a muted municipal doppelganger of Winged Foot East and throw 18 of them around a mini-mesa topography, add a dose of silly ponds, creeks, and crotches of fescue and voila!!!, you have Aspen Golf club, circa 1990's.

   I'm told the place has enjoyed a bit of post 2001 RE gold-rush facelift, sprucing up the H20 features and chasing away the effects of decamped revelers from a night spent chasing the hoity-doity around town. But before I get side-tracked, let's get back to those greens. Not anywhere else west of Vail Pass and east of Sacramento is there a set of as much fun-but-difficult muni greens to play. There are few straight, non-breakers and anything left above the holes were terror. Just like a Stanwich, WFW or Merion, the wrong side misses left IOUs for par and the near-guarantee for much worse.

  The course is short and the air thin, so the ball goes & goes, but layout works well enough to provide test for the adventurous. Save for those greens and the magnificent views of the surrounding mountain majesty, the rest of the course won't impress much, but the fun and beauty factor is a large component of municipal success and enjoyment.

  I'm absolutely certain, with the appropriate respect (or lack of?) that our resident expert, Matt Ward won't agree with me about Aspen GC, but I'm further comforted by the inclusion of Neshanic Valley, back here in Central NJ. He's never been a huge fan of that 27 hole muni-complex either(and again I'm biased having won a county competition there), but many of those who have gotten out to site sing it's praises and mob it's phone lines for tee times.

   Remember, the placement on the list aren't what anyone should focus on, but instead simply make note of the fact that enough "otherwise knowledgeable" golfers saw fit to include these venues in a list that points out the better of the bunch. Muni golf is root system of the American game and sometimes, it's just plain fun to break out the hawaiian shirt , cargo shorts and ugly footwear and scrape it around. Aspen is definitely one of the better equivalents of golf's "gin joints" to frequent for such pleasure!

[Mike_Cirba]

It's pretty sad that Cobb's Creek is not even on that list.

For a course that was generally acknowledged as the greatest public course in the country until the mid 30s when Bethpage Black was created, it's a long way down.

The potential there is SOOO much greater;  hopefully it will be realized again someday.

Mike-

I understand your relationship with Cobb's Creek and your plan is a very cool one...but do you really think that if someone just played the course (without knowing the history) would rank it higher than many of the courses on the list?

Or were you just speaking to potential?

Pat,

I was speaking totally to potential.

In the present state and routing configuration, I agree it doesn't belong on the list.

[PCCraig]

It's pretty sad that Cobb's Creek is not even on that list.

For a course that was generally acknowledged as the greatest public course in the country until the mid 30s when Bethpage Black was created, it's a long way down.

The potential there is SOOO much greater;  hopefully it will be realized again someday.

Mike-

I understand your relationship with Cobb's Creek and your plan is a very cool one...but do you really think that if someone just played the course (without knowing the history) would rank it higher than many of the courses on the list?

Or were you just speaking to potential?

Pat,

I was speaking totally to potential.

In the present state and routing configuration, I agree it doesn't belong on the list.

I agree that with some work it could easily be on that list.

[David_Tepper]

Seeing Callippe Preserve at #43 is a bit of a surprise. I have only played it once, but I am not sure it is a better course than the Metropolitan Golf Links by the Oakland Airport.

[Matthew Runde]

It's interesting that Florida, which has a dozen courses per resident, has only two courses on the list.

[Chris_Clouser]

Nice to see Blackthorn in South Bend on the list.  It often gets overlooked due to the Warren Course and South Bend CC, but it is a very nice layout.  I'm not so sure that it is the best muni course in the state in my opinion, but I can't argue with it being called that by someone else. 

[Doug Wright]

Nice to see that Pinon Hills (Ken Dye), one of the bellwhethers of extremely affordable and good golf (ie value) continues to be so well recognized. It's certainly in lofty company at #4.

17. Aspen Golf Club  Aspen, Colo.     This is very surprising to me. I've never played it. Numerous drive-bys led me to believe this was a flat, boring, uninteresting etc. course. Am I wrong?

Doug,

    I too was surprised by this inclusion, but in hindsight, there is a good deal of merit for some measure of recognition, if not such a lofty perch on the rating list. Of course, I am biased, having won the 1998 Aspen City championship (with an unconscious 69 final round, including a quad bogey,...but that's a whole n'other story). The terrain there is indeed mostly flat...until you arrive at the greens. They are(were) pure poa.... canted, slanted, pushed up, crowned, and putting everyone on full-tilt when shaved tight. Imagine a muted municipal doppelganger of Winged Foot East and throw 18 of them around a mini-mesa topography, add a dose of silly ponds, creeks, and crotches of fescue and voila!!!, you have Aspen Golf club, circa 1990's.

   I'm told the place has enjoyed a bit of post 2001 RE gold-rush facelift, sprucing up the H20 features and chasing away the effects of decamped revelers from a night spent chasing the hoity-doity around town. But before I get side-tracked, let's get back to those greens. Not anywhere else west of Vail Pass and east of Sacramento is there a set of as much fun-but-difficult muni greens to play. There are few straight, non-breakers and anything left above the holes were terror. Just like a Stanwich, WFW or Merion, the wrong side misses left IOUs for par and the near-guarantee for much worse.

  The course is short and the air thin, so the ball goes & goes, but layout works well enough to provide test for the adventurous. Save for those greens and the magnificent views of the surrounding mountain majesty, the rest of the course won't impress much, but the fun and beauty factor is a large component of municipal success and enjoyment.

  I'm absolutely certain, with the appropriate respect (or lack of?) that our resident expert, Matt Ward won't agree with me about Aspen GC, but I'm further comforted by the inclusion of Neshanic Valley, back here in Central NJ. He's never been a huge fan of that 27 hole muni-complex either(and again I'm biased having won a county competition there), but many of those who have gotten out to site sing it's praises and mob it's phone lines for tee times.

   Remember, the placement on the list aren't what anyone should focus on, but instead simply make note of the fact that enough "otherwise knowledgeable" golfers saw fit to include these venues in a list that points out the better of the bunch. Muni golf is root system of the American game and sometimes, it's just plain fun to break out the hawaiian shirt , cargo shorts and ugly footwear and scrape it around. Aspen is definitely one of the better equivalents of golf's "gin joints" to frequent for such pleasure!

Steve, thanks for this reply. I think this is the first review or substantive commentary ever of Aspen GC on GolfClubAtlas, which in and of itself says something to me about the relative quality of the course. Denver's City Park GC and Wellshire GC both have very interesting greens, but I'd be loath to suggest they appear on a list like this.

[Phil_the_Author]

Buck,

You asked, "Not to pick nits but is Bethpage really a municipal?"

I don't know if this will make a difference to your view, but few know that the money that enabled the purchase of the property for the entire Bethpage project was LENT to New York state by two unicipalities; the towns of of Huntington and Oyster Bay, neither of which has a square inch of Bethpage State Park within their borders.

The bulk of the Park property was made up by the Yoakum Estate land including the Lenox Hill Golf Club which the state was leasing when the idea to add golf courses became a reality. The purchase price was reduced from 1.1 million to 1 million, yet the state had no money to pay as either deposit or for the WPA to fund the project. These two municipalities put up $100,000 which then enabled the state to float a series of bonds for the other $900,000 through the auspices of the Long Island State Park Commisiion & Bethpage Park Authority.

The project almost never happened because of the state money problems. It was these two true municipalities that enabled it to come to fruition.

As a side note, it was because the state had no legal ability to hire CONTRACTORS to design and build either golf course(s) or clubhouse at the time that BOTH Clifford Wendehack and A.W. Tillinghast signed "CONSULTANT" contracts to design both as the state did not yet own the property. In actuality, the Yoakum family and estate gave permission to the state to begin building based upon this $100,000 deposit and promise to fund the rest through the bonds which served as the payment to them. They closed in April 1934, more than 4 months after the project began and the $100,000 from the two municipalities was paid.

So, from that perspective, this really was a project funded and created by municipalities.

 

[Phil_the_Author]

One other thing, what I find most fascinating about the Golfweek list is that within the Top 20 courses, 3 different municipalities have two courses!

Not sure what that really says...

[Garland Bayley]

Buck,

You asked, "Not to pick nits but is Bethpage really a municipal?"

I don't know if this will make a difference to your view, but few know that the money that enabled the purchase of the property for the entire Bethpage project was LENT to New York state by two unicipalities; the towns of of Huntington and Oyster Bay, neither of which has a square inch of Bethpage State Park within their borders.

The bulk of the Park property was made up by the Yoakum Estate land including the Lenox Hill Golf Club which the state was leasing when the idea to add golf courses became a reality. The purchase price was reduced from 1.1 million to 1 million, yet the state had no money to pay as either deposit or for the WPA to fund the project. These two municipalities put up $100,000 which then enabled the state to float a series of bonds for the other $900,000 through the auspices of the Long Island State Park Commisiion & Bethpage Park Authority.

The project almost never happened because of the state money problems. It was these two true municipalities that enabled it to come to fruition.

As a side note, it was because the state had no legal ability to hire CONTRACTORS to design and build either golf course(s) or clubhouse at the time that BOTH Clifford Wendehack and A.W. Tillinghast signed "CONSULTANT" contracts to design both as the state did not yet own the property. In actuality, the Yoakum family and estate gave permission to the state to begin building based upon this $100,000 deposit and promise to fund the rest through the bonds which served as the payment to them. They closed in April 1934, more than 4 months after the project began and the $100,000 from the two municipalities was paid.

So, from that perspective, this really was a project funded and created by municipalities.

 

Great bid of info Philip. Thanks!

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