[Will MacEwen]

I am in Phoenix this week and it looks like I will have one free afternoon to brave the sizzle and play 18.  I am staying at the Biltmore, and am thinking of either Seguaro or Talking Stick North.  Anything else I should consider, and how do those two options compare.

I managed to get a good sunburn this weekend playing 36 holes in the 70s within one mile of the Pacific.  The desert should prove interesting.

Thanks.

[Jason Topp]

Talking Stick North is an interesting design on dead flat land.

Saguaro is prototypical Coore/Crenshaw on terrific rolling land.

I would also consider Vista Verde if it is open and you do not mind the drive.

Southern Dunes is very good but it is a long drive and will be even warmer due to lower elevation.

[Andy Troeger]

I liked Saguaro a LOT better than TSN. Coore/Crenshaw did a nice job with both, but the property at Saguaro lends itself to more variety and a better course IMO.

[Chris DeNigris]

I'd vote for VV- played it 2x end of April- right before Gateway tour event- and it exceeded expectations. Haven't played a course in a long while that made you think as much around the greens. A great test of your short game.

Southern Dunes was a really terrific play. Sorta flys under the radar being way down south but easily worth the drive. Desert is tame and there's a lot of width but the course defends itself with a ton of great bunkering. As with VV no houses to ruin the asthetic.

Can't miss with either Wekopa course.

TSN was nice but underwhelming.

CMD

[Ben Sims]

Mr. MacEwen,

I gotta second (or third) the vote for Saguaro.  It has no houses on the course which is a big plus in the Phoenix area.  I thoroughly enjoyed my day there.  It is unlike anything else in the desert, and that's even playing it a day after I played Stone Eagle!!

[Will MacEwen]

Mr. MacEwen,

I gotta second (or third) the vote for Saguaro.  It has no houses on the course which is a big plus in the Phoenix area.  I thoroughly enjoyed my day there.  It is unlike anything else in the desert, and that's even playing it a day after I played Stone Eagle!!

My one concern with Saguaro is that paying $120 as a solo walk on in 110 degree heat may be foolish - hard for someone north and west of the PNW to enjoy golf in that temp.  The forecast is looking a little more forgiving now though.  I will likely play there, assuming my clubs make my tight connection.

No need for the formal salutation, unless you are trying to make me feel old...

[Ben Sims]

Not trying to make you feel old.  Just doing what my southern mother taught me.  I'll pretty much call anyone I don't know (especially if I can't see them, i.e, the internet; formally until they tell me otherwise) 

But Saguaro really is worth it, even if its hot.  Like I stated previously today somewhere, the combination of fairway width, random bunkering, vast short grass around greens, and undulation within the greens makes for a fair and fun outing.

[Jesse Jones]

Will,

Vista Verde without a doubt. Remember, there's no clubhouse or any place to cool off there.

[Carl Nichols]

Will,

Vista Verde without a doubt. Remember, there's no clubhouse or any place to cool off there.

I respectfully disagree.  V.V. deserves to get more recognition than it does, but IMHO Saguaro is better (and, at least when I played both in November, in better condition).  And since Will wants to walk, I think the choice is even clearer -- Saguaro is a great course to walk; V.V. is not. 

[John Foley]

Will,

You can do no wrong with the Saguaro. C&C did a great job on a very interesting peice of land. I like TS, but the land is soo much better at Saguaro.

[Tom Yost]

A break in the weather this week may help out with your plans for an afternoon walk.  Normally, I would advise only doing this with an early tee time and being off the course by 11AM.

You can't go wrong with any of the choices mentioned, although Saguaro is the course I would recommend for an out-of-towner with one round to play.  $120 however, would give me pause... (no harm in trying to beg the summer rate which would normally kick in next week)  Vista Verde is running $50 on GolfNow BUT-  I think I read where they aren't offering afternoon play.  Talking Stick N. is great fun, easy walk, but not as scenic as the other two.

[Andy Troeger]

I've walked Saguaro, Vista Verde, TSN, and Longbow and I wouldn't say any of them are overly taxing under reasonable weather conditions. Vista Verde is certainly the toughest walk of the four, however, with Saguaro likely second.

If the cost and the walk are a concern I'd look into Longbow though, its pretty good in its own right and a pretty reasonable walk. Granted, I've not ever experienced 110 degrees!

In order of the golf experience, I'd go Saguaro, Vista Verde, Longbow, TSN. Most others will have TSN at least above Longbow I think.

[Mark Smolens]

I haven't made it out to see Forrest Richardson's renovation work at the Biltmore, but some of the pics I saw on a thread here looked very nice.  If time becomes a problem, that's always an option.  If I were there, I'd pick Saguaro, but I have the We-Ko-Pass and an AZ id so I don't have to pay the rack rate.  For my money it's the best public golf course experience in the Valley.

[Will MacEwen]

If my clubs make it, I'll head up to Saguaro.  I'll call from the road as a single and see what the rate is.  I don't mind the price (especially with current exchange rate) if I am not getting the full blast furnace experience. 

The Biltmore is a decent backup, and I believe has some sort of putting course as well. 

Thanks for all the input.  If I do make it out, I'll follow up with my thoughts, FWIW.  I always like closure on the recommendation threads.

[Forrest Richardson]

Will — I suggest you forego the putting course. Not even Gary Panks would endorse it...and he designed it! From what I know it is not maintained well and is really just for kids. However, at the Biltmore Golf Courses the short game area is a joy — you can ask for a cart to go down there and chip, pitch, blast and putt to your hearts content. It may well be open late, so perhaps you can get in some practice the evening before your golf day.

I agree with the comments about Saguaro — I enjoy it best between the two WeKoPa courses. And, Talking Stick North is always fun.

Other options in Phoenix, some off the radar scope: ASU's Karsten Course (Pete and Perry Dye); Troon CC (if you can get on with a member); and Desert Forest (also private).

[Chris DeNigris]

I just don't see the intense love-fest with Saguaro...very walkable, for sure but so is Central Park. Granted, I've only played it twice but I'm hard pressed to really recollect more than a handful of memorable holes. At least a dozen very non awe-inspiring holes with a few really good ones, mostly towards the end. A bunch of 4s that really don't stand out. A lot of width but kinda boring, uninteresting width. None of the 3s particularly stand out, except that #9 seems sort of crammed into a 125 yard alley butting up against the halfway house. 14 is an interesting par 5 and 17 and 18 are really good finishing 4s.

I know C&C are revered here but I have a hard time believing this is one of their finest. The land they had to work with is amazing but the finished product doesn't seem to measure up. I know I'm in the minority here...maybe I need to play it a few more times to appreciate some of the sublteties that I may have missed.

VV was more interesting to me with more strategic shot values.

CMD

[Brian Joines]

I just got back from a trip out there and played Talking Stick, Saguaro and played Vista Verde in December. I'm with the majority on this one. I really enjoyed my afternoon round at Saguaro and think it's the best public course in the area. It is in excellent shape right now so you should be in for a treat.

[Ben Sims]

Chris,

I have to respectively disagree.  I read what you are saying and I think to myself, "Yeah, he's right.  That's what makes it so good!"

See, for me, Saguaro is a great course for what it's not.  Yeah I get it, it's not Troon Monument, Desert Highlands, or Val Verde.  That is the beauty of it for me.  Scottsdale has a lot of target desert golf courses with internal water, pretty grass and nice pedigree's.  There is nothing wrong with that by the way.  Cholla--it could be argued--is one of the top 5 of that genre in the valley.  I call these courses "supermodels".  I mean that in the most respectful way. I know Marisa Miller is hot, but I'm sure she wouldn't look twice at me.  I felt that way about Cholla and and Troon Monument.  The style of golf I was forced to play at hose two courses got pretty old, pretty quick.  

Unless you like lots of grass, unobstructed (no houses) views of the 4 peaks, and dozens of big cacti, you would hate the scenery at Saguaro.   At Saguaro I used almost every shot I had in the bag.  Low and high, 80 foot putts, driver on some tees, hybrid on others.  Three legitimately drivable par 4's.  Three par 4's of 450 yds+.  A 250yd+ par 3.  A split fairway.  Fairway bunker that are--gasp--in the fairway!  I just consider it a layout that has many pluses and not a ton of minus'.  

The lack of love from some circles leads me to think that we get conditioned for certain courses in certain areas.  Georgia is supposed to look like Peachtree and Augusta.  Cali is supposed to have courses that look like Pasatiempo, Olympic, Cypress.  North Carolina sand hills are supposed to look like Pinehurst and Pine Needles.  Then a Long Shadow (Georgia), Rustic Canyon (Cali), Tobacco Road (North Carolina) come along and break people's perceptions about what type of golf is "supposed" to be in a certain area.  I think Saguaro--as much press as it gets--is still a bit underrated due to this fact.  It doesn't look or play like desert golf.  That is why I feel it must be visited.

[Chris DeNigris]

Ben,

Don't get me wrong- I like Saguaro, just not nearly as much as a lot of folks here. I'm not a huge fan of Troon North/Boulders target desert golf, but just not being that isn't necessarily what should make a great desert golf course. I think both VV and Southern Dunes present more interesting variations in a non-target design than does Saguaro.

I think Saguaro is very much TSN with more interesting topography. Not a bad thing but IMO not worthy of of the pedestal many place it on.

And while Cholla is definitely more targety than Saguaro, it's far less than Monument, Pinnacle, Boulders and many others.

CMD

[Mark Kinney]

Will,

One thing you will want to ask, wherever you decide to play is if they have any major maintenance going on or recently (aerification for example).  It's this time of year that many courses will do this.  We are just coming out of the busy season, and will want to do this before it gets too hot.

[David Druzisky]

So Will, how did it go?

I think Ben hits it on the head in describing Saguaro as great for what it is not.  I too felt a little underwhelmed when I played it but also understood that because of its finer points it would be fun to play over and over - as long as you could hit the shots you wanted.  Therefore I think "tourist casual golfer" will be a bit dissapointed while better golfers will really like it.  Typical for C&C designs.  In fact when I first learned C&C were picked to do the design I thought it was an interesting market choice.  While their stuff often more suits private club use they also have a little niche in markets where there are enough better and informed golfers that will appreciate their style.  (I always thought they would have been a great choice for the 2nd course at Whisper Rock rather than another Fazio)    It is also a nice option - except for the price - for locals looking for a different style.  Same with WSN.

I guess I need to go and see VV as it continues to get praise here.  I would disagree with my friend Forest on ASU Karsten - and not because I went to UofA!

There is no doubt a high percentage of the best golf in the PHX market is the private stuff.

[Will MacEwen]

I played Saguaro on Friday.

There was actually a fair bit of rain on Thursday night/Friday morning, and the course was softer than the courses I play on Vancouver Island at this time of year - that was kind of odd.  I also find the ball carries more in the heat and I had trouble not taking too much club on approaches.

I really liked the course.  The lack of housing is certainly a nice bonus.  The greens reminded me a fair bit of Bandon Trails, and I suspect that like that course, the more I played Saguaro the more I would appreciate it.  I kind of agree with Chris that there aren't many memorable holes, but I think the entire presentation is pretty strong.  The split fairway par 5 was certainly memorable, and the horseshoe-ish green on 10 stood out.  I was also pleased to find a bunker at the back of #10 as I airmailed that green as well.

The 18th is a great finisher - had things not been soft, I may have snuck down the gully for an extra 50 yards or so.  As it was, I had about 200 in on my approach, but it never seemed like that was too long. 

One nitpick I might have is it seems like the 4s were all long or short - I was hitting a 5 iron or a wedge on most approaches.  I only recall hitting a mid iron in on #1 and #6 (I think it was 6).  There may have been another one in there somewhere.

Overall, very pleased, and as I said, I think I would enjoy it with more plays.  Thanks for all the input here.

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